Harjinder Singh Dilgeer In Canada

[raj_karega_khalsa]

Sangat Jee,

I heard Harjinder Singh Dilgeer was in Montreal recently and will be in Toronto this upcoming weekend. Does anyone have anymore details about his trip and if he'll be coming out to the West at all, like Surrey or Calgary?

[Nirvair S Khalsa]

Sangat Jee,

I heard Harjinder Singh Dilgeer was in Montreal recently and will be in Toronto this upcoming weekend. Does anyone have anymore details about his trip and if he'll be coming out to the West at all, like Surrey or Calgary?

Dilgeer is a twisted "scholar" sharing the views of Kala Afghana, Ragi Gulshan, Prof Darshan, Inder Ghagga...etc. Sikhs, Gurdwara Committees and Panthic Jathebandhiya should protest his visit, he should not be allowed on any Gurdwara stage to do his warped Parchaar. He is a menace in the Panth like those with whom he shares views.

[Inder Singh]

Sangat Jee,

I heard Harjinder Singh Dilgeer was in Montreal recently and will be in Toronto this upcoming weekend. Does anyone have anymore details about his trip and if he'll be coming out to the West at all, like Surrey or Calgary?

*Mod edited*

Just to let sangat know that he is black listed by gurudwaras of UK for his anti sikh writings. He is no better than other heretics of kala afghana gang.

[khalsaland]

http://www.panthic.org/articles/3830

HALL OF SHAME : THE HERETICS IN THE PANTH

BAKSHI ATAMJOT SINGH

When Socrates was given a choice to either escape from the prison, or face execution by drinking the poison hemlock he preferred the latter. He believed in what he had preached. And he didn't deter to lay his life for those principles. He didn't want to be seen as a hypocrite among his followers. He died defending his principles.

Hypocrisy and compromising their own principles doesn't seem to be a big problem for some Sikh preachers who, for unknown reasons, flip-flop on their own preaching and belief. Prof. Darshan Singh has become the latest person to defy his own belief on Gurbani. By doing so he has joined the ranks of Bhag Singh, Principal Harbhajan Singh, Harjinder Singh Dilgeer and Gurtej Singh who also backtracked from their earlier belief and faith on the bani of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib.

It is a fact that if a person wants to become a Sikh he will have to be baptized using the banis of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. And It is also a fact that if a person wants to talk about the Khalsa principles, the concept of Saint-Soldier and the life of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib he will have to quote from the Dasam Bani as well. One cannot put the Sikh history and belief into perspective without quoting from the sacred bani of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib.

From the changing stance of some of the above mentioned writers and pracharaks on the Dasam Bani one thing, though a bit puzzling, is becoming quite evident. Those who had grudges on the functioning of SGPC or the role of our Jathedars on handling different panthic issues, more often justified than being imaginary, aimed their guns towards the Dasam Bani as well. Whereas Sri Guru Granth Sahib contains references to the figures from Hindu mythology, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib contains explanatory references to these figures. No wonder this scripture can be and has been misused by those Sikhs who want to blackmail fellow Sikhs, and by those Hindu hardliners who want to disprove Sikh's separate identity.

What Sri Akal Takhat Sahib is to Sri Harimandir Sahib: Sri Dasam Granth Sahib is to Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Whatever is not said, recited and placed inside Sri Harimandir Sahib, is done at Sri Akal Takhat Sahib. Both are complementary to each other and are the embodiment of the Saint-Soldier concept of the Khalsa.

It was the wisdom of Gurmukhs like Bhai Kahn Singh, Bhai Vir Singh, Master Tara Singh, Bhai Randhir Singh, Prof. Puran Singh, Giani Ditt Singh etc who could defend the Arya Samajist onslaughts against the bani of Guru Gobind Singh Ji with great vigor. What Kaal, Mahakaal, Kalika and other names mean in Guru Sahib's bani has been extensively explained a century ago by these Gurmukhs(1). How the non-Sikhs particularly Hindus interpreted the meaning of these terms at that time, is now being interpreted by these rebellious Sikhs. A simple mathematical equation puts these Sikhs into the same shoes as those of the Hindu fundamentalists of that time.

Blindly ignoring the primary dates of the completion of the individual compositions mentioned in the Dasam Bani(2), and un-acknowledging the great effort of Bhai Mani Singh Ji in the compilation of Guru Sahib's bani after his demise, recently Dr. Dilgeer was quoted saying that the Dasam Bani was compiled by the British, centuries after the death of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib. The same Dr. Dilgeer while serving as the Director of the Sikh Research Board considered Chandi Di Vaar (Source of Ardas) and Chaupai Sahib (Source of Amrit Sanchar and Nitnem) as the writing of The Tenth Master(3). After he was unceremoniously removed from the post he aimed his guns towards his own beliefs. Now he travels around criticizing the SGPC along with the Dasam Bani.

Gurtej Singh (ex-IAS) was conferred the title of 'Prof. of Sikhism' by SGPC for his panthic services during the 1980s. Until recently he understood the importance of the Dasam Bani in instilling the warrior spirit in the Khalsa. However, under some unknown pressure, he too aimed his guns towards the Dasam Bani as a result the honor with which he was once bestowed was repealed by the panth.

Another classic case of the abandoning the faith on Dasam Bani is that of Principal Harbhajan Singh (Shaheed Sikh Missionary College). He has numerous articles and books written in the glory of the bani of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib. Interestingly he was the one who in his writings often addressed Sri Dasam Granth as Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib. Then came another book written by octogenarian Principal Harbhajan Singh which was a complete U-turn from his own earlier writings. In that book he not only rejected the Dasam Bani but also used derogatory language against it. Before he could be asked to explain his detraction from his earlier stance, he passed away.

But the latest and the most surprising member of 'The Hall of Shame' is Prof Darshan Singh Ragi. He had been a casualty of his own blasphemy. Darshan Singh, while in his heydays as a panthic ragi and during the peak years of Punjab's political crisis used to perform keertan and katha from Dasam Bani instilling that warrior spirit among the youth for which the bani was written and composed. He has now started chopping his roots by questioning his own beliefs. Last year when the whole panth was celebrating the Prakash Utsav of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Darshan Singh from a historic Gurdwara associated with Guru Teg Bahadur's martyrdom ceased the opportunity to publicly declare his abdication from the panthic values and his own faith and spewed venom against the bani of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib. This is amusing because until quite recently Darshan Singh was performing keertan and katha from Dasam Bani, and was positively propagating its true meaning and advising sangat to read the banis in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. His sudden U-turn from what he preached earlier has come as a big surprise. He was either wrong earlier or is wrong now. If he was correct earlier and is wrong now then he is a hypocrite and a charlatan. If he was wrong before, then he is untrustworthy.

Belief and faith is something intrinsic to the existence and welfare of a community. In a bound fabric of religious dogmas, individual views come secondary to the primary beliefs of the community. And every claimant of a religious community ought to honor that collective wisdom.

Sikh history is full of examples where people preferred to sacrifice their life in order to uphold the glory of their faith. Compromising the faith and turning around from ones beliefs is not only un-Sikh but is immoral and unethical too.

Those who propagate disbelief, skepticism and suspicion with the aim of creating confusions, are always pushed to the fringes. They remain disgraced and ostracized only to look back and ponder upon their wrong deeds.

(1) ਮਹਾਕਾਲ - {ਸੰਗ੍ਯਾ}। ਕਾਲ ਦਾ ਭੀ ਕਾਲ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ। ਯਮ ਸ਼ਿਵ ਆਦਿ ਜਗਤ ਦਾ ਅੰਤ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਭੀ ਜਿਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਲੈ ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ। ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ। "ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਰਖਵਾਰ ਹਮਾਰੋ"। (ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਾਵ)। (2) ਉਹ ਲੰਮਾ ਸਮਾਂ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਅੰਤ ਅਸੀਂ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਣ ਸਕਦੇ। (3) ਸਮੇਂ ਨੂੰ ਹੀ ਕਰਤਾ ਹਰਤਾ ਮੰਨਣ ਵਾਲਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਮਤ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਅਨੰਤ ਰੂਪ ਕਾਲ। ….."ਗ੍ਯਾਨ ਹੂੰ ਕੇ ਗ੍ਯਾਤਾ ਮਹਾ ਬੁੱਧਿਤਾ ਕੇ ਦਾਤਾ ਦੇਵ, ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕੇ ਕਾਲ ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕੇ ਕਾਲ ਹੈਂ". (ਅਕਾਲ).

(Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha in 'Mahan Kosh')

(2) ਸੱਤ੍ਰਹ ਸੈ ਪੈਤਾਲ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਵਨ ਸੁਦਿ ਥਿਤਿ ਦੀਪ ॥ ਨਗਰ ਪਾਂਵਟਾ ਸੁਭ ਕਰਨ ਜਮਨਾ ਬਹੈ ਸਮੀਪ ॥2490॥

(This work has been completed) in the year 1745 of the Vikrami era in the Sudi aspect of the moon in the month of Sawan, (July 1688 A.D.) in the town of Paonta at the auspicious hour, on banks of the flowing Yamuna. (Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib in 'Krishnavtar')

ਸੰਬਤ ਸਤ੍ਰਹ ਸਹਸ ਭਣਿਜੈ ॥ ਅਰਧ ਸਹਸ ਫੁਨਿ ਤੀਨਿ ਕਹਿਜੈ ॥ ਭਾਦ੍ਰਵ ਸੁਦੀ ਅਸਟਮੀ ਰਵਿ ਵਾਰਾ ॥ ਤੀਰ ਸਤੁਦ੍ਰਵ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸੁਧਾਰਾ ॥405॥

The Granth was completed on Sunday, the 18th day of month of Bhadon, in 1753 Bikrami Sammat (August 24, 1696 A.D.) on the banks of river Satluj.

(Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib in 'Charitropakhyan')

ਸੰਮਤ ਸੱਤ੍ਰਹ ਸਹਸ ਪਚਾਵਨ॥ ਹਾੜ ਵਦੀ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੈ ਸੁਖ ਦਾਵਨ ॥ ਤ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਕਰਿ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸੁਧਾਰਾ ॥ ਭੂਲ ਪਰੀ ਲਹੁ ਲੇਹੁ ਸੁਧਾਰਾ ॥860॥

This Granth (book) has been complete (and improved) in Vadi first in the month of Asaarh in the year 1755 Bikrami; if there has remained any error in it, then kindly correct it.

(Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib in 'Ramavtaar')

(3)"CHANDI DI VAAR - Ballad of Chandi, written by Guru Gobind Singh Sahib...the theme of this ballad is war between good and evil. The Sikh warriors used to listen to this Vaar during the days of battle. Chandi Di Vaar has been written in central Punjabi language. It is replete with powerful, brilliant and articulate similes."

Harjinder Singh Dilgeer (The Sikh Reference Book, 1997)

"CHAUPAI - Literally means a verse or composition of four lines in a specific meter. It is a composition of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib. The main theme of this hymn is to invoke the Almighty to seek his Grace and Blessings for protection in every sphere of life."

Harjinder Singh Dilgeer (The Sikh Reference Book, 1997)

[raj_karega_khalsa]

Hahah ahhh...was expecting this...

I've been thinking about this for a while and trying to formulate a solid opinion on this, so forgive me if I'm not totally coherent...

But Sikhs are not Catholics. We don't have a god-ordained clergy or any hierarchical group of leaders that makes 'God's decisions on Earth' to ex-communicate people or put a clamp on certain thoughts and ideas. You can read about the way the political system of the Panth works in works of Sardar Kapur Singh and, ironically, Harjinder Singh Dilgeer; this is why I AM, in fact, eager to meet him.

Sirdar Kapur Singh

These are the roots out of which the main doctrine of the Sikh polity grow. These doctrines constitute a septinate of the

following order:

(1) The sangat, meaning, the local folk assembly of direct representation.

(2) The Panth, which is the whole Commonwealth represented by the Peoples’ Assembly of indirect representation.

(3) The Khalsa, which postulates the sui generis, inalienable sovereignty of the People.

(4) The condominium of Guru Granth and Panth, which implies that the exercise of power is always subject to

bonafides and good conscience.

(5) The Panjpiaras which is the doctrine of collegial leadership in the direction of State policies.

[34]

(6) The Gurmata which is the symbol and form of the authority of the Collective Will of the people duly formulated.

(7) The Sarbat Khalsa doctrine of completely equalitarian free democracy.

When the Khalsa believes in such amazing, powerful concepts, such as, direct representation, democracy, freedom of speech, commonwealth, why are we moving back to more primitive, hierarchical thoughts and concepts?

I've been seeing fear, more and more in today's Sikhs. Worst yet, it's not fear of the battlefield or anything, it's fear of a thought. People are afraid of letting thoughts spread. Sad, really, because thoughts are the signs of progress, the process of learning, and thereby Sikhi. Thoughts, questions, doubts are all a part of the journey. Guru Naanak didn't condemn people he didn't agree with to marginalize them and blacken their names in public. Guru Sahib had an understanding, stayed firm in the that understanding and spread it through discussion. Remember Sidh Gosht? He could have boycotted the Sidhs or taken other such extraneous actions common among today's 'Sikh politicians' but what did he choose to do? Pay attention, it's important. He went to them. He went to them and had a discussion, exchanged thoughts and ideas. Have faith in Gurmat Singho, antagonists of the Panth will themselves be identified and faded out, the Panth will always remain in ChaRdiKalaa. By constraining thoughts and ideas, you only serve them by making them more popular. A significant part of the Singh Sabha movement was public debating. Different scholars, academics, sants and ideologues got together and discussed their ideas. Take part in the learning process! Stop trying to shut it down and force your views on other people, Gurmat will always remain radiant.

I understand the passions and concerns going on with malicious self-styled 'scholars,' but we aren't doing anyone any favours by trying to shut their ideas in a box. Meet them, talk to them, debate them and move on. You can't censor free thought. By discussing their ideas and opposing them with logic, the reality itself will shine through and their wrong ideas will die out. But where a perceived 'heretic' makes a good point according to Gurmat, eat your pride and accept it, learn from it and apply it.

One particular point of hypocrisy that's specifically bothering me is this infectious thought that individual Sikhs feel themselves worthy to act as judge, jury and prosecutor. (haha I think Tupac, a 'Manmukh,' got it right when he said "Only God can Judge Me.") Since the topic of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib has been coming up, I've seen more and more Sikhs, young and old, taking it upon themselves to decide who is a Sikh and who isn't. One such criteria according to these individuals is 'believing in Bani.' These individuals feel that if someone has a differing viewpoint on Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, they are not Sikh because they 'doubt Bani.' Here's what throws me off - they have no problem with people not believing in Raagmala. Please pause and reflect, think calmly before you start huffing and puffing. I'm not saying that those who don't believe in Raagmala aren't Sikh, nor am I saying they should be treated differently. I'm saying that according to many individuals, those people who 'doubt Bani' aren't Sikh when it comes to Sri Dasam Granth Sahib; but they don't mind the person next to them 'doubting' Raagmala because they still believe in the latter - this is blatantly hypocritical, pitifully comical and just, plain disturbing. Why is this? Is it because of the prevalent political climate in the Panth and the stigmatism attached to certain viewpoints? If so, that's alarming; that's not what Sikhi was, is or will ever be. Sikhi is about Truth, a Sikh will always be a seeker of the Truth and will lay everything down for it - no matter what the situation.

Remember the example of Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib; Guru Sahib did not agree with the principles or ideas of Hinduism whatsoever, but was ready to sacrifice his life to protect their freedoms and basic rights.

"I don't believe in a word you say, but I will defend - with my life - your right to say it."

-Voltaire

[Inder Singh]

Heretic dilgeer is not only doubting dasam granth sahib he also is in league with thug Joginder of spokesman who says that only guru nanak dev ji Guru of sikhs , SGGS i snot written by Guru arjan dev ji, akal takhat is not built up by Hargobind sahib etc.

More about heretic Dilgeer.

Pro-Kala Afghana Writer Harjinder Dilgeer Banned by European Sikh Sangat http://panthic.org/

PARIS, France (KP)—Despite Akal Takht Sahib's strict stance against fabricating Sikh History, Dr. Harjinder Dilgeer is still trying to spread his heretical literature in Gurdwaras across the globe. Dilgeer was recently boycotted at a local Gurdwara in France, after he was trying to propagate his most recent heretical book “Sikh Twareekh.” To prevent the sangat from being misled by this sacrilegious impostor, the Gurdwara took a strong stance and refused to let Dilgeer spread his fiction here. In addition, the committee requested Akal Takht Sahib and the SGPC to do a thorough examination of Dilgeer's deceitful literature and prevent Dilgeer from preaching at any Gurdwara.

Singh Sahib Giani Gurbachan Singh fulfilled the committee's request and asked the Dharam Parchar Committee to establish a five member committee to fully examine and document the propaganda of Dilgeer's book “Sikh Twareekh” (History of Sikhs). Singh Sahib mentioned it was important to further prevent manmat literature to spread through our Gurdwaras and Sikh Institutions which the Kala Afghana lobby is already swiftly doing. While Akal Takht is investigating Dilgeer's erroneous work, Gurdwaras across the globe should boycott Dilgeer from speaking on stage. The sangat should not be conned by Dilgeer's deception.

Dilgeer's most recent book attempts to completely discredit authentic Sikh history and re-writes the history with a modern spin to make sense of Guru Ji’s mysterious unexplainable power. He goes as far as to question the story which explains how Guru Nanak Sahib Ji rotated Mecca. This sakhi is well documented and beautifully explained with great detail in Bhai Gurdas Ji’s Vaars (http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=5572). Should we allow faithless cynics like Dilgeer to come to our Gurdwaras and question the writings of our most prominent scholar (Bhai Gurdas Ji) the Sikh panth has been blessed with? The book does not only undermine ancient Sikh history of Guru Nanak Dev Ji's time, it undermines all of Sikh history.

“Sikh Twareekh” is a box set of 5 books about Sikh History. The five books are set out in 5 different timelines. The first book includes the years 1469-1708. The second book includes the years 1708-1850. The third book is from 1850-1947, the fourth from 1947-1984 and the fifth includes the years 1984 to present day. Throughout this set Dilgeer has the audacity to make some of the most outrageous claims.

Recently a panthic meeting was arranged in the UK, and the sangat collectively concluded that such writings are anti-Panthic and must have been influenced by the works of heretics like Inder Ghaggha, Ragi Gulshan and Prof. Darshan Singh. The meeting was recently held at Guru Nanak Nishkam Sewak Jatha Birmingham (Soho Road). Gursikhs from numerous Gurdwaras, Jathebandis and organisations attended.

These included Jathedar of Guru Nanak Nishkam Sewak Jatha, Bhai Mohinder Singh (GNNSJ), Bhai Jasdev Singh Rai (Southall), Bhai Charan Singh (Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji Gurdwara, Tividale), Bhai Soda Singh (Dudley Gurdwara), Bhai Balwinder Singh Chahheru (Sandwell Sikh Council), Cllr. Gurdial Singh Atwal, Bhai Sukhbir Singh, Bhai Gurmeet Singh Sidhu (Wolverhampton Sikh Council), Bhai Tarsem Singh Deol (British Sikh Council), Bhai Balbir Singh (AKJ UK), Jathedar Bhai Mohinder Singh Khera (Oldbury Guru Ghar), Bhai Jagdev Singh Boparai (Sikh Council Birmingham), Bhai Ranjit Singh (GNG West Bromwich), Jathedar Mota Singh (Nihung Singh Sabha UK), Bhai Kulwant Singh Dhesi (Coventry) Bhai Balihar Singh Ramewal (Shrimoni Youth Akali Dal), Bhai Sarbjit Singh Kooner (Shiromani Akali Dal Amritsar) Bhai Ranjit Singh Rana (Sahib Magazine), Jathedar Joga Singh and Bhai Kuldeep Singh Chahheru (both coordinators of Federation of Sikh Organisations).

At the meeting, the sangat collectively discovered that Dilgeer's book distorts the history of the Guru Sahibans, Sikh Shaheeds, and Sikh Gurdwaras. Objection was raised in regards to the claim of Dilgeer that states that Guru Nanak Sahib Ji never fed the hungry Sadhus with the money that his father Mehta Kalian Das gave him. Dilgeer states "Guru Sahib would never have wasted his money on Vehlereh (freeloaders)". The Sakhi of Guru Arjan Sahib Ji sitting on the tatti tavi (hot plate) was made up by poets and writers (page 220).

Dilgeer claims Gurdwara Sacha Sauda, Gurdwara Sant Ghat Sultanpur Lodhi, Gurdwara Panja Sahib, Gurdwara Bangla Sahib as well as other numerous sacred gurdwaras are "fake gurdwaras." Dilgeer claims that the history connected with these Gurdwaras are made up by poets and other fake scholars. In addition, he states that the Panja at Panja Sahib is not of Guru Nanak Sahib Ji's because it had existed hundreds of years before Guru Nanak Dev Ji (page 123).

Going against the amrit sanchar, he states that the concept of “Aape Gur Chela” is inaccurate. He writes that Guru Gobind Singh Ji first used the Khanda to put five drops of Amrit in his own mouth before giving it to the Panj Pyaarey (page 316). He also writes that Sahibzada Ajit Singh Ji was married to Bibi Tara Kaur and had a son called Hothi Singh. After the Shaheedi of Sahibzada Ajit Singh ji, Bibi Tara Kaur was then married off to a Singh from a village called Burhanapur (page 405).

During the meeting, Sangat took a strong stance and concluded that they will not allow Dilgeer to propagate this manmat at any of the Gurdwaras they attend or manage. This is a great step since Dilgeer, who is a resident of the UK, will be prevented from spreading his heretical literature in his own country of residence. It is important that sangat from US, Canada, India, and other countries take similar measures to prevent anti-Sikh literature from spreading in Sikh institutions. If you happen to see this book in stock at any Gurdwara library please kindly remove it.

http://www.panthic.o...2009-02-20.html

[Only five]

Hahah ahhh...was expecting this...

I've been thinking about this for a while and trying to formulate a solid opinion on this, so forgive me if I'm not totally coherent...

But Sikhs are not Catholics. We don't have a god-ordained clergy or any hierarchical group of leaders that makes 'God's decisions on Earth' to ex-communicate people or put a clamp on certain thoughts and ideas.

Lies are not ideas or thoughts. It's like when I slander someone, it's not a thought. I really believe that the person is ........

When you lie, there is intent to distort and mislead. If a person says in my opinion then that is a thought. But Harjinder Dilgeer is lying about Sikh history in his books and lying about Dasam Granth. Are you laughing now. Wait there is more.

You can read about the way the political system of the Panth works in works of Sardar Kapur Singh and, ironically, Harjinder Singh Dilgeer; this is why I AM, in fact, eager to meet him. [/qiuote]

No one will stop you from seeing a lair, like Gurbani says, the type of sangat you keep is what you turn into.

When the Khalsa believes in such amazing, powerful concepts, such as, direct representation, democracy, freedom of speech, commonwealth, why are we moving back to more primitive, hierarchical thoughts and concepts?

Here is history for you. Pay attention. Dhan Dhan Dhan Guru Har Rai Sahib excommunicated his own son from the Sikh Panth for distorting Gurbani to please the Mughal Emperor. Now look at what your heros Darshan Ragi, Dilgeer and rest are doing. They are distorting bani of Dhan Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji, distorting Sikh history. Punj Pyare represent Dhan Dhan Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji. The Punj don't just bless us with Amrit. Are you laughing now. Laugher harder.

I've been seeing fear, more and more in today's Sikhs. Worst yet, it's not fear of the battlefield or anything, it's fear of a thought. People are afraid of letting thoughts spread.

Lies are not thoughts. Opinions are thoughts.

Sad, really, because thoughts are the signs of progress, the process of learning, and thereby Sikhi.

What's sad is, you can't see the difference between lies and thoughts. Are you still laughing. I hope you are.

Thoughts, questions, doubts are all a part of the journey. Guru Naanak didn't condemn people he didn't agree with to marginalize them and blacken their names in public. Guru Sahib had an understanding, stayed firm in the that understanding and spread it through discussion. Remember Sidh Gosht? He could have boycotted the Sidhs or taken other such extraneous actions common among today's 'Sikh politicians' but what did he choose to do? Pay attention, it's important. He went to them. He went to them and had a discussion, exchanged thoughts and ideas.

You should have been Dhan Dhan Dhan Guru Har Rai Sahib advisor. Should have told him that excommunicating his own son was wrong. Wait a minute, you already said Guru Sahib did a wrong. Where is your dera maybe I can get more knowledge from visiting your heros Darshan Ragi and Dilgeer. Are you still laughing

Have faith in Gurmat Singho, antagonists of the Panth will themselves be identified and faded out, the Panth will always remain in ChaRdiKalaa.

They have been identified and your hero and Guru Dilgeer is one of them. Sorry to burst your bubble.

And the rest is just repitition on defending what has been exposed for what it really is. Lies by low lifes like Dilgeer

[raj_karega_khalsa]

I actually am still laughing, but i think its more out of pity this time. Next time can you please try to form a logical, coherent argument instead of just trying to belittle and class me into a certain group when you know nothing about me?

By constraining thoughts and ideas, you only serve them by making them more popular. A significant part of the Singh Sabha movement was public debating. Different scholars, academics, sants and ideologues got together and discussed their ideas. Take part in the learning process! Stop trying to shut it down and force your views on other people, Gurmat will always remain radiant.

I understand the passions and concerns going on with malicious self-styled 'scholars,' but we aren't doing anyone any favours by trying to shut their ideas in a box. Meet them, talk to them, debate them and move on. You can't censor free thought. By discussing their ideas and opposing them with logic, the reality itself will shine through and their wrong ideas will die out. But where a perceived 'heretic' makes a good point according to Gurmat, eat your pride and accept it, learn from it and apply it.

[Inder Singh]

I actually am still laughing, but i think its more out of pity this time. Next time can you please try to form a logical, coherent argument instead of just trying to belittle and class me into a certain group when you know nothing about me?

We need not to know you. your views are enough to gauge you.Anyone who sides with Gurnindaks and traitors

is part of them.

[raj_karega_khalsa]

Hmm...'us' and 'them,' huh? So I'm guessing we can't be friends? lol

Can I ask one question though? To Inder Singh Veerjee and only five Jee: What are your views on 'Gursikhs' who don't believe in Raagmala? Thanks to only five Jee I now know the story about Sri Guru Har Rai Sahib Jee disowning their son when he changed one line of Gurbani, and also know that those who 'distort' and 'doubt' Bani can never be classed Gursikhs. So what of those 'fools' and 'traitors' who not only 'doubt' Raagmala but outright reject it; many opponents actually claim that Raagmala was originally sung by a prostitute and penned by poet Alam - sounds pretty 'disrespectful' to me.

Now consider that many sources and materials in favour of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib are published/penned/compiled by opponents of Raagmala. Examples would be AKJ California, Panthic Weekly, Piara Singh Padam, Bhai Randheer Singh, Shahbaaz Khalsa/GURSIKH and I think even Kahan Singh Nabha.

Why no witch-hunting of such groups? Why the hypocrisy and double standards?

Food for thought...