What Is Katha

[kam1825]

One thing here I am going to say is i am not here to defame or criticise Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh as my avastha or Budhi is no where in comparison.

I just think that the view i have of katha is puratan sampardaic and the creater of this thread is a neo Akhand Kirtani. Our views are different and i am not here to defame or ridicule what he is saying but to try to balance the discussion

[Sukhdeep Singhh]

One thing here I am going to say is i am not here to defame or criticise Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh as my avastha or Budhi is no where in comparison.

I just think that the view i have of katha is puratan sampardaic and the creater of this thread is a neo Akhand Kirtani. Our views are different and i am not here to defame or ridicule what he is saying but to try to balance the discussion

I respect your views. But just to clear things up Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji was not against Gurmat Veechar or explanation of History, because these things are very important and allow Gursikhs to have great love for Guru Sahib, but what he is saying is that True Kamaee comes from doing Naam Abhyiaas and Sifat Salah of Waaheguru Ji through Gurbani. Bhai Sahib is saying: one cant get mukti just by listening to Katha, one cant be lazy, one must do Kamaee . Gurbani is clear on this fact. What we take with us when we leave this world is the Naam we collected.

Also Bhai Sahib was a true believer that the House of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a House of Bhagti where sangat go all out on their Bhagti. Thus he was clearly against having katha in the Gurdwara since complete emphasis of Gurdwara etiquette consist of meeting Sadh Sangat and going all out in ones Kamaee. Im afraid are religion is being to Christianized where we have a certified Giani preach to the sangat for an hour or 2 and people go home feeling like they learned something. We need to experience the power of Gurbani through doing hard core Bhagti with sangat.

[Sukhdeep Singhh]

Oh yeah I forgot by the way im not AKJ . i dont belong to any group. I respect all people who make Gurmat their lifes work.

[Sukhdeep Singhh]

Sukhdeep Singh, look into the roots of the word 'Katha' and what it means. All of the question you ask here and on other forums have been comprehensively answered in Kathas.

Bhai Sahib this is where the problem lies . We cant assume Gurbani is an ordinary language. Gurbani is unbroken without an end and was in existence before the beginning of time. Guru Sahib had to use words to convey a deep spritual message from Sach Khand which really cant be understood in languages of that time because of the deepness of Gurmat. Take the following Shabad for example ( http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=3043) We can never understand this shabad by taking the words at face value.

So too say look into the roots of the word like katha to understand Gurbani really does no justice to the beauty of Gurus deep and mysterious bachan.

I have heard kathavachiks often try to explain the root/origin of words and explain Gurbani according to the roots of these words. Again Gurmat concepts and language is completely diffrernt then Sanskrit, Arabic, etc. Much of Gurbani language is crypted we have to learn Gurbani Grammer and build our kamaee to get deeper understanding of Guru Jis message.

I have heard some Kathavachiks refer to Katha as Parkash while others refer to Katha as Gian, and they try to break down the words and its roots. But to give a word in Gurbani a single definition is a major fault if we applied a single meaning of a word then many Pangita would not make sense. For example if we interpretted the word Katha as Parkash throughout Gurbani many of the meaning of Gurbani would have strange meanings. If we are too intepret or understand language through own thinking or cultural thinking then we are the only ones to lose from a greater spiritual live experience.

Guru Jis Hukum can only have one meaning , we all just interpet Guru Jis Hukum according to our understanding.Many times in Gurbani, the word Katha is used in a different context. By studying Gurbani Grammar we can come to a better understaning of what the word means by taking into consideration to the whole pangti. Words in Gurbani have different meanings, but each Pangti in Gurbani has one single meaning. For example the follwing Gurvak

kQw khwxI bydNØI AwxI pwpu puMnu bIcwru ]

In this Gurvak the word Katha along with the words Kahanee ( stories), and Beydee ( four vedas)are plural . So the meaning of Katha in this pangti is simply defined as theological discussions. Now we cant use the definition of discussion/discourse when understadning the following pangti

qyrI AkQ kQw gur sbid vKwxI ]1] rhwau ]

the following Pangti Akath Katha cannot be simply understood as Discourse from its Sanksirt origns. Here the word Akatha Katha is refering to Unspoken Word a word which is alien to any language in this world. Unspoken word means Gurmantar ( Gurshabad) going automically where the devotee is not reciting the mantar by themselves instead the Gurmantar is going automatic ( akath) with each breath. The person is not reciting Gurmantar mechanically instead the Gurmantar keeps penetrating without any effort it becomes automatic . In the above shabad above Guru Ji clearly explains this experience happens through following the Gurus teachings, and in Anand Sahib Guru Ji clearly expalins the experience and the opposite of Akath Katha that maya-filled mooraks like me go through all the time when doing Naam Jaap

icqu ijn kw ihir lieAw mwieAw bolin pey rvwxI ]

So when Mind is full of Maya, Akath Katha is not possible. Recitation become manual when we are not folllowing Guru Jis directions.

Again Gurbani is Akath Katha a language of expereince we cant understand Gurbani in an intellectual manner nor can we turn the language of Gurbani as an offshoot of other languages.

[Sukhdeep Singhh]

WAHEGURUJIKAKHALSAWAHEGURUJIKEFATEH.

ਕਥਾ ਸੁਣਤ ਮਲੁ ਸਗਲੀ ਖੋਵੈ ॥

कथा सुणत मलु सगली खोवै ॥

Kathā suṇaṯ mal saglī kẖovai.

Hearing Your Sermon, all filth is removed.

There are hundreds of references to katha in SGGS. The above is just one example. My personal interpretation of "katha" is the preaching of the qualities of Waheguru ,and as such , what one can attain by naam simram.

I spent many years listening to katha from many different preachers and reading steeks etc. Now I feel that I have reached a stage where I can decipher Gurbani and Gur Ithihas for myself.

I get distraught at times when I have to sit through katha where the preacher is not promoting the power of naam but rather is using Gurbani to promote his own agenda.

I feel I have got there in the end but only after years of searching and interpreting.

I still feel that katha of SGGS is important aswell as the katha of Sri Gur pratap suraj granth. I appreciate that some historical events recorded in SGPSG do not conform to the Gurmat of SGGS but that is something we learn to balance after debating the issues with scholars and prominent Gursiks etc.

All preachers and other Gurbani readers will interpret it in their own way and , as such , will attempt to portray it in that way.

I would say that people in general fall into the three categories of "rajjo gunn ,tammo gunn ,and satto gunn" but the true katha of waheguru ji would be performed by someone who does not fit into this category i.e. someone who is in "chauttha padh".

Regards.

I think Katha in the pangti you provided is to the Katha perfomed by Guru Sahib ( Gurmat) because the pangti before Guru Ji states

gux gwvq mnu hirAw hovY ]

Gun Gavat is referring to Gurbani Kirtan , and the same would apply to Gurmat otherwise we can interpret Gun Gavaat as praisal from any mat ( Christian, Hindu,etc)

[kam1825]

"Im afraid are religion is being to Christianized where we have a certified Giani preach to the sangat for an hour or 2 and people go home feeling like they learned something. We need to experience the power of Gurbani through doing hard core Bhagti with sangat."

My brother from Christianising the religion it is exactly the opposite of what you have stated. Christianity has now come to the point where there are various sects and groups who preach the bible in different ways all due to egotism. They did not want to learn from those who heald the knowledge of the religious doctrine and started to interpret it themselves thought thier own experiance. Examples are David Koresh, The Mormans, Quakers, Lutherianism, Evangelical Christians, Catholics, Protastants.

The same has happened in Sikhi. The original message was convayed by the four core sampardas who were taught by those present when sri Guru Gobins Singh Ji did the arths of Guru Sahib leading to the salvation of those present. This was through the Katha itself but obviously these individuals had a rare jeevani as well. They went through the stages of Sunnan, Mannan and Nidhyasan. One should listen to Katha and Gurbani and should live in accordance to the precious teachings. With regards to people going home after an hour or two of listening to katha and feeling as they have achieved something. The same can be said for listening to a Sukhmani Sahib Paath or Sahaj Paath. Satsangat is essential, Gurbani is essential and Katha is essential(sargun and Nirgun). these are all required but the pride has to be eradicated through submission to the Guru and learning from another about the teachings of the Guru.

You would not suggest to a number of children not to attend school. To just sit as a group and read a maths book then to experiance what they have learned. Without the core (texts/shabad) and the teacher one does not actually learn as the ego leads them down a long and dark path to no where.

The modern day missionaries, scholars, writers, Bhasurias have all come about due to ego as they do not want to learn the core tenants of the Guru just to experiance and talk about Gurbani in their own desire. Due to these Neo fractions all of a sudden there are arguements over what is Gurbani and what isn't, what is Ithaas what isn't and what they consider to be Gurmat due to individual ignorances.

If i have misinterpreted what you have said i apologise in advance

[MokhamSingh]

WAHEGURUJIKAKHALSAWAHEGURUJIKEFATEH.

ਗੂਜਰੀ ॥

गूजरी ॥

Gūjrī.

Goojaree:

ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲਛਮੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥

अंति कालि जो लछमी सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥

Anṯ kāl jo lacẖẖmī simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.

At the very last moment, one who thinks of wealth, and dies in such thoughts,

ਸਰਪ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੧॥

सरप जोनि वलि वलि अउतरै ॥१॥

Sarap jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||1||

shall be reincarnated over and over again, in the form of serpents. ||1||

ਅਰੀ ਬਾਈ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਤਿ ਬੀਸਰੈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

अरी बाई गोबिद नामु मति बीसरै ॥ रहाउ ॥

Arī bā▫ī gobiḏ nām maṯ bīsrai. Rahā▫o.

O sister, do not forget the Name of the Lord of the Universe. ||Pause||

ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥

अंति कालि जो इसत्री सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥

Anṯ kāl jo isṯarī simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.

At the very last moment, he who thinks of women, and dies in such thoughts,

ਬੇਸਵਾ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੨॥

बेसवा जोनि वलि वलि अउतरै ॥२॥

Besvā jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||2||

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a prostitute. ||2||

ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਲੜਿਕੇ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥

अंति कालि जो लड़िके सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥

Anṯ kāl jo laṛike simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.

At the very last moment, one who thinks of his children, and dies in such thoughts,

ਸੂਕਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੩॥

सूकर जोनि वलि वलि अउतरै ॥३॥

Sūkar jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||3||

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a pig. ||3||

ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਜੋ ਮੰਦਰ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥

अंति कालि जो मंदर सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥

Anṯ kāl jo manḏar simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.

At the very last moment, one who thinks of mansions, and dies in such thoughts,

ਪ੍ਰੇਤ ਜੋਨਿ ਵਲਿ ਵਲਿ ਅਉਤਰੈ ॥੪॥

प्रेत जोनि वलि वलि अउतरै ॥४॥

Pareṯ jon val val a▫uṯarai. ||4||

shall be reincarnated over and over again as a goblin. ||4||

ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣੁ ਸਿਮਰੈ ਐਸੀ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਜੇ ਮਰੈ ॥

अंति कालि नाराइणु सिमरै ऐसी चिंता महि जे मरै ॥

Anṯ kāl nārā▫iṇ simrai aisī cẖinṯā mėh je marai.

At the very last moment, one who thinks of the Lord, and dies in such thoughts,

ਬਦਤਿ ਤਿਲੋਚਨੁ ਤੇ ਨਰ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਪੀਤੰਬਰੁ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਰਿਦੈ ਬਸੈ ॥੫॥੨॥

बदति तिलोचनु ते नर मुकता पीत्मबरु वा के रिदै बसै ॥५॥२॥

Baḏaṯ ṯilocẖan ṯe nar mukṯā pīṯambar vā ke riḏai basai. ||5||2||

says Trilochan, that man shall be liberated; the Lord shall abide in his heart. ||5||2||

page 526 SGGS.

My understanding is that in order to achieve kalyaan , one has to conform to the above ideology. If one can conform to this through:

(1) Chanting Gurbani alone , then one has succeeded.

(2) Listening/singing to Gurbani (either classical raags or straight forward dharna) the one has succeeded.

(3) Listening to katha of SGGS,Sri Dassam Granth,Sri Gurpratap Suraj Granth,Bhai Gurdas,Bahi Nand Lal,etc.....then one has succeeded.

(4) dhadhi vaaran/Kaveesharee etc..........then one has succeeded.

(5) Chanting of "Waheguru"............then one has succeeded.

My personal experience is the combination of the above. Again I stress this is only my own interpretation and experience and is not intended as a slur against any individual,Sikh,or Jathebandhee etc.

"Kalyaan is our ultimate goal". How we get there may vary from person to person.

WAHEGURUJIKAKHALSAWAHEGURUJIKEFATEH.

[chatanga]

Also Bhai Sahib was a true believer that the House of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a House of Bhagti where sangat go all out on their Bhagti.

Maybe thats where the problem or confusion is. Guru Nanaks house is more than a HOuse of Bhagti.

Thus he was clearly against having katha in the Gurdwara since complete emphasis of Gurdwara etiquette consist of meeting Sadh Sangat and going all out in ones Kamaee.

sukhdeep singh ji, in the topic about vajas etc I asked you a question when you questioned/belittled the bakhsish of Guru Nanak, saying it was not necessary. You refused to, or most likely couldnt, answer that question, so you gave a one-liner from gurbani about arguing with fools, like that would make you seem really clever and others, or prob just me, a fool.

here, i want to ask you the same question again. Did our Gurus ever do anything or set any examples that would become worthless in a century or two?

Guru Gobind Singh Ji started the samprdaye of santhiya/katha. was this for any purpose or did Guru Ji just do something that was not necessary for us? you can be a clever man here but your cleveri wont work always.

Guru spent many months on katha of Aad Guru Darbar with the Sikhs, why concern yourself with what Bhai Randhir Singh thought in this matter when Guru's example has already shown you?

[agiaan andhhaeraa]

VJJK VJKF,

I think everyone can agree that we need Gurbani (Guru's teachings) to find Naam within ourselves.

Secondly, one veerji quite correctly identifies than naam-bani is the route to slavation, but does this mean we should then not bother learning shaster vidya?? or santhyia of Gurbani??? or KATHA?

NO, it doesn't!!!!!!!

Because, these were Guru Ji's teachings and we must follow them ALL to be a pooran gursikh, although i agree that naam-bani alone is enough for slavation, however we should try to follow all of Guru jis' Hukams rather then make excuses because then you might aswell start saying: baana is not necessary, wearing your kakkars is not necssary etc - these are the type of views that missionary type of scholars promoted, and ofcourse no offence intended to Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Ji's views (who was very mahaan indeed) or his follower's.

So, please benti lets not try to belittle the importance of katha.

[Sukhdeep Singhh]

"Im afraid are religion is being to Christianized where we have a certified Giani preach to the sangat for an hour or 2 and people go home feeling like they learned something. We need to experience the power of Gurbani through doing hard core Bhagti with sangat."

My brother from Christianising the religion it is exactly the opposite of what you have stated. Christianity has now come to the point where there are various sects and groups who preach the bible in different ways all due to egotism. They did not want to learn from those who heald the knowledge of the religious doctrine and started to interpret it themselves thought thier own experiance. Examples are David Koresh, The Mormans, Quakers, Lutherianism, Evangelical Christians, Catholics, Protastants.

The same has happened in Sikhi. The original message was convayed by the four core sampardas who were taught by those present when sri Guru Gobins Singh Ji did the arths of Guru Sahib leading to the salvation of those present. This was through the Katha itself but obviously these individuals had a rare jeevani as well. They went through the stages of Sunnan, Mannan and Nidhyasan. One should listen to Katha and Gurbani and should live in accordance to the precious teachings. With regards to people going home after an hour or two of listening to katha and feeling as they have achieved something. The same can be said for listening to a Sukhmani Sahib Paath or Sahaj Paath. Satsangat is essential, Gurbani is essential and Katha is essential(sargun and Nirgun). these are all required but the pride has to be eradicated through submission to the Guru and learning from another about the teachings of the Guru.

You would not suggest to a number of children not to attend school. To just sit as a group and read a maths book then to experiance what they have learned. Without the core (texts/shabad) and the teacher one does not actually learn as the ego leads them down a long and dark path to no where.

The modern day missionaries, scholars, writers, Bhasurias have all come about due to ego as they do not want to learn the core tenants of the Guru just to experiance and talk about Gurbani in their own desire. Due to these Neo fractions all of a sudden there are arguements over what is Gurbani and what isn't, what is Ithaas what isn't and what they consider to be Gurmat due to individual ignorances.

If i have misinterpreted what you have said i apologise in advance

By Christianizing I meant Sikhi becoming a religion of " professional clerics"( professional raagis ,professional kathavachiks) and a mass of illiterates. Sikhi is about experiencing Sikhi directly from Guru Sahib not from a second hand man or clergy. We must work hard on our Bhagti we cant have others do our Bhagti for us.

"You would not suggest to a number of children not to attend school. To just sit as a group and read a maths book then to experiance what they have learned. Without the core (texts/shabad) and the teacher one does not actually learn as the ego leads them down a long and dark path to no where."

I would suggest the child to go to school ( sadh Sangat), and learn the core cirriculim ( Gurmat ) directly from the master ( Guru Ji).

You have not addressed any points I mentioned in my preious post. Its strange how you have changed this whole conversation to a my group is better and more ancient then your group" Again this all Ego. All modern day groups ( AKJ, Nanaksar, Modern day Taksal, Rara Sahib,etc) were created during the Singh Sabha movement by saintly Gursikhs to combat the distortion of Sikhi and for this reason all modern day groups have in some shape or manner been blessed with Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. AKJ is an example both Bhai Randhir Singh Ji, Bhai Rama Singh Ji,and Bhai Jeevan Singh Ji have had darshan of Guru Sahib and Guru Ji gave them panthic instructions. Guru Sahib never created four groups there is no purpose to do so. Guru Ji created the Khalsa he never had any intentions to make any divisions only desi people like to make divisions.

The ancient Taksal was created by Guru Sahib to teach pronunication and meanings of Gurbani it was not the modern political group you see today. If some one went to the Taksal they were a Singh first ; Ancient Taksal was open for all SInghs it was not some elitist jatha which people joined and parted from the Akal Takht. Again Guru Ji created the Khalsa and the Taksal was a place of study which all Singhs were part of since its a SInghs duty to learn meanings and reciation of Gurbani. . Baba Deep Singh Ji is an example Baba Ji was not a Nihang Singh or a Taksali Singh. Clear fact is Baba Ji IS a Singh first and foremost. people like to make claims that there group is from the lineage of Guru Sahib but this all done out of Ego to make themselves feel better and brighter then other Singhs.

Again I would suggest you do not get attached to any group you should respect and enjoy sangat but dont get attachments. Nobody came with you into this world and nobody will leave with you. Im not into groups so If you dont want to address Gurbani dont bother replying to this message. Im not concerned with the history of any modern day group. If you read my post on this thread it is clear that Im a staunch supporter of Rehat Maryada progagated by the AKJ but this doesnt mean Im a " neo AKj" whatever that means. Whether it be Nanaksar, Taksal, AKJ, non affiliation, I will go to any sangat where there is NAAM because this is the only thing I cant take with me upon leaving. As far as im concerned any Gursikh who striclt and only follows Gurmat rehat is from the lineage of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj. It doesnt matter what group you belong too if a person wants Guru Jis blessing they need to please Guru Ji first and foremost instead of wasting their time defending their clique.