sikh struggle

[babbar_sher]

ALL DURING KHALISTAN MOVEMENT IN INDIA WHILE TAKING INNOCENTS OF A PARTICULAR RELIGION OFF THE BUS AND KILLING THEM OR KILLING SIKHS WHO DIDN'T TOE THEIR LINE.

LATEST IS KILLING OF SANT RAMA NAND RIGHT IN GURUDWARA IN VIENNA, AUSTRIA. NOW DON'T TELL ME HE DID BEADBI AND DESERVED THIS, BECAUSE TERRORISTS ALWAYS HAVE JUSTIFICATION AS THEY HAVE IN THIS CASE.

SINCE THEIR RELIGION SAYS JAZIA MUST BE PAID BY NON MUSLIMS, THEN IS THE KILLING JUSTIFIED AS YOU JUSTIFY THE KILLINGS DONE BY YOUR BROTHERS?

TERRORISTS SUPPORTERS ARE LIKE MOTHERS OF EVIL. YOUR SIKH BROTHERS STABBED INNOCENTS IN GURUDWARA AND TOOK A 7 YEAR OLD GIRL HOSTAGE AND USED GATRAS FOR KILLING.

THAT'S WHY SIKH TERRORISTS ARE SAME AS TALIBAN THOUGH A LOT CHEAPER AND LOW GRADE VERSION.

you realize how easy it is for government of india to dress there people as sikhs and kill innocents on a bus? its not that hard for non sikhs to dress up as sikhs. sant bhindranwale even said in his speech that the government was sending threatening letters to sikhs and demanding money from them in the name of bhindranwale. what makes you think they wont kill 10 hindus to give the freedom movement a bad name? especially at a time when the support for khalistan was at its highest? btw tell me again what would sikhs fighters in punjab gain by killing hindus when they know if khalistan is to be made hindu support is very much necessary?

and do some research, your sant was killed by your own people dummy.

[harjits4]

Here we go again..

How would you feel when someone come to your house and taunt you that you are HINDU not sikh as per hindu marriage act.

How would you feel when your mother tongue Punjabi taken away as prime language and treated as 3rd class language in front of you (guru angad dev ji promoted/created gurmukhi).

How would you feel when water rights taken away from your family?

How would you feel if your neighbor harassed your family members and local police is being biased and supporting them just because they are from same religion?

How would you feel if the local/national media is spreading false rumors about your house, your family, your privacy to the rest of the world (name callings & all other dirty professions)?

Harjit, you need to take some history lessons and on top of that you need to stay calm when replying. We know that you have grudge against Anandpur Sahib Resolution and majority of sikhs but don't be angry and i am sure whatever religion you follow teaches you to stay calm (full CAPS reply means you are jumping thru the roof). It also seems like you follow biased media news. Instead of following news, ppl, friends, relatives, family, dera blindly you need to use your own dimag to figure out stuff. But dimag without knowledge is also devils playground. So first step for you is to learn some basic books to get the knowledge and then come up to debate with others.

Hijacking beheading of innocent young sikhs of peshawar issue to pacify your ego or your hatred against sikh struggle movement is selfish act. If you want to discuss the struggle of 50's/70's/80's then open up a new thread.

Bhaji, I have nothing against sikh movement for equality. But you have to look at the facts too. First let me say, I hate killing of innocents and I hope those talibans who did the killing drown in their own blood and suffer for time immortal.

Now as far as "injustices" to sikhs were concerned, where was the injustice when:

1. All transportation business in india was controlled by Sikhs

2. Almost whole army was controlled by sikhs

3. Almost whole medico bsuiness was managed by sikhs

4. Everywhere in India sikhs were addressed as "Sardar Ji"

5. many of the corporations were managed by sikhs

6. Sikhs in movies were always portrayed as good characters

7. The water issue could have been resolved with simple means

8. All auto business in Delhi and elsewhere was controlled by sikhs

9. Sikhism was viewed as a pristine religion

10. As far as identity is concerned, those changes could have been brought about in time. At the time of constitution development, the mindset that exists today didn't exist.

You can attribute all above to hard work of sikhs and that is true but in the same tone, it doesn't reflect that sikhs were grossly discriminated as you claimed or their rights were snatched.

The issues that you are claiming are post khalistan movement.

[babbar_sher]

^^^ wow changed your tone very quickly there man...

here i was hoping to see some fireworks <_<

[apnepart2]

apnepart2, I am not spreading hatred. I can empathize with you and the anger of sikhs. I don't need to hijack the thread. You people will make grandiose statements on this killing while it is their families who have to suffer.

whos is making grandiose statements? just becoz some member says lets get revenge doesnt mean all are going there and everyone agrees with that. After the killing of our brothers what kind of protests did you see in India? Peaceful only !! Sounds unfamiliar i guess as you people after the killing of your leader went berseck and burned public property and destroyed communal harmony by acting like goondas. No wonder no symphathy came from any quarters. Compare with us, you accuse us of killing Hindus, yet so many Hindus are protesting alongside us. For your info recently a Hindu was captured for being member of Khalistan Liberation force in Amritsar.

only comment is such killing is always justified by those who commit them in the same way you justify the killings of Saints. Everybody is allowed in our mandirs. You are welcome. Please come to Buta Mandi any time.

I dont visit mandirs and i am allergic to racist people. Lets see how many non-chamaars are members of Buta Mandi Mandir trust and how many non-chamaars and jatts are trustees of balan dera?? How many non-chamaar leaders do you have for you little organisation?

Don't be desperate to ban me, I am just showing you guys the mirror. I condemn this killing as I know how a mother, wife and children of those killed feel. I was in the thick of anti sikh violence in India and my best friends were all sikhs.

oh really? and i guess they killed your family and that is why you hate Sikhs so much.

TIll date, no justice have been given to poor sikhs of tirlokpuri delhi because all of them were low caste sikhs. Those killed in Delhi were not sandhus, sidhus, dhillons etc. They were either mochis, blacksmiths, rikshawwalas. Whether you like what I say or not but this is the truth. Everybody in your sikh religion also wanted those leftovers to disappear somehow. Aren't you surprised that nothing has happened yet to those who committed violence?

We know the reason why dont we? Plenty of Sandhus, Sidhus and Dhillons got killed and their livelihood destroyed. Was any non-sikh attacked?

[S1ngh]

Serious flaws in your reply:

1. All transportation business in india was controlled by Sikhs

Trucking is hard job and it is not for anyone. Only hard working person can do this job. Truckers are very tough ppl. Sikh race is tough and we believe in concept of Sant Sipahi. So trucking industry is not granted to us by government or by anyone. It is the hard work of Sikhs who are good in this line of work.

2. Almost whole army was controlled by sikhs

Easy to say but it is also Sikhs who laid their life for india's freedom. Less than 2% of the total india population participated more than 70% of India's freedom movement. By participation, i meant - hanged/shot/dead/war

3. Almost whole medico bsuiness was managed by sikhs

Again not granted by anyone but by our hard working skills and guru jees blessing of helping needy.

4. Everywhere in India sikhs were addressed as "Sardar Ji"

Because Sikhs bought them freedom both from Mughals and British.

5. many of the corporations were managed by sikhs

Again not granted by anyone but by our hard working skills

6. Sikhs in movies were always portrayed as good characters

Yeh right !

7. The water issue could have been resolved with simple means

Veerji, You don't even have any clue of what type of hell my fathers/grandfather been thru? Read this section: http://sikhyouth.com...es/water-rights

8. All auto business in Delhi and elsewhere was controlled by sikhs

Again not granted by anyone but by our hard working skills

9. Sikhism was viewed as a pristine religion

No doubt in that..

10. As far as identity is concerned, those changes could have been brought about in time. At the time of constitution development, the mindset that exists today didn't exist.

Demand is present for the past 40 years and yet no action. Read Anandpur Sahib resolution.

[harjits4]

Serious flaws in your reply:

1. All transportation business in india was controlled by Sikhs

Trucking is hard job and it is not for anyone. Only hard working person can do this job. Truckers are very tough ppl. Sikh race is tough and we believe in concept of Sant Sipahi. So trucking industry is not granted to us by government or by anyone. It is the hard work of Sikhs who are good in this line of work.

2. Almost whole army was controlled by sikhs

Easy to say but it is also Sikhs who laid their life for india's freedom. Less than 2% of the total india population participated more than 70% of India's freedom movement. By participation, i meant - hanged/shot/dead/war

3. Almost whole medico bsuiness was managed by sikhs

Again not granted by anyone but by our hard working skills and guru jees blessing of helping needy.

4. Everywhere in India sikhs were addressed as "Sardar Ji"

Because Sikhs bought them freedom both from Mughals and British.

5. many of the corporations were managed by sikhs

Again not granted by anyone but by our hard working skills

6. Sikhs in movies were always portrayed as good characters

Yeh right !

7. The water issue could have been resolved with simple means

Veerji, You don't even have any clue of what type of hell my fathers/grandfather been thru? Read this section: http://sikhyouth.com...es/water-rights

8. All auto business in Delhi and elsewhere was controlled by sikhs

Again not granted by anyone but by our hard working skills

9. Sikhism was viewed as a pristine religion

No doubt in that..

10. As far as identity is concerned, those changes could have been brought about in time. At the time of constitution development, the mindset that exists today didn't exist.

Demand is present for the past 40 years and yet no action. Read Anandpur Sahib resolution.

Singh Ji,

your response is fine. If Anandpur Sahib resolution is the only bottleneck then hell go for it.

If Ravidassia can have their own religion than why can't Sikhs have it. It is a different issue that ravidassia are very large in number but that is immaterial.

[S1ngh]

Singh Ji,

your response is fine. If Anandpur Sahib resolution is the only bottleneck then hell go for it.

If Ravidassia can have their own religion than why can't Sikhs have it. It is a different issue that ravidassia are very large in number but that is immaterial.

Harjit ji,

It is not that simple. Sikhs are very simple and they want simple demand without strings attached such as "Declare Amritsar as Holy city just like govt declased haradwar as holy city", Sikh asked for seperate radio for darbar sahib live kirtan, one or two train name should be in the name of sikhs and other such simple demands. Sikhs did not become hard core overnight but it took decades for us begging in front of India for our simple demands but instead we were reduced to ashes. Promotions of Sikh professors, doctors stopped in 70's because of vast discrimination. Water/Dam rights were taken away from Punjab. According to constitution, every state has their own rights over their resources be it water or coal etc except punjab.

We have been fighting for normal rights diplomatic peaceful way but of to no available. Instead they labeled us as "Fanatics" "ISI" and reduced punjab size and took away its capital and its language. No media did coverage of this because of controlled media and tv channel by government. Anyway it is long story but i would encourage you to read books and you will see whats been happening to us for the past 6 decades.

Read this e-book Gallant Defender by AR Darshi. It is not written by Sikh author.

[harjits4]

Harjit,

Advice for you: Read this e-book Gallant Defender by AR Darshi. It is not written by Sikhs nor by any jatt whom you hate.

guys,

If you guys feel that I am hijacking the topic of killing of innocents sikhs than I will keep quiet. My purpose was only to bring a different viewpoint to it i.e. from the perspective of someone who suffered the same way as you are suffering now and I don't wish you that.

It is natural for me to have hate for those who killed innocents in Vienna but I should not let my hate be an obstacle for grieving process that sikhs are going through.

[harjits4]

Singh Ji,

your response is fine. If Anandpur Sahib resolution is the only bottleneck then hell go for it.

If Ravidassia can have their own religion than why can't Sikhs have it. It is a different issue that ravidassia are very large in number but that is immaterial.

Harjit ji,

It is not that simple. Sikhs are very simple and they want simple demand without strings attached such as "Declare Amritsar as Holy city just like govt declased haradwar as holy city", Sikh asked for seperate radio for darbar sahib live kirtan, one or two train name should be in the name of sikhs and other such simple demands. Sikhs did not become hard core overnight but it took decades for us begging in front of India for our simple demands but instead we were reduced to ashes. Promotions of Sikh professors, doctors stopped in 70's because of vast discrimination. Water/Dam rights were taken away from Punjab. According to constitution, every state has their own rights over their resources be it water or coal etc except punjab.

We have been fighting for normal rights diplomatic peaceful way but of to no available. Instead they labeled us as "Fanatics" "ISI" and reduced punjab size and took away its capital and its language. No media did coverage of this because of controlled media and tv channel by government. Anyway it is long story but i would encourage you to read books and you will see whats been happening to us for the past 6 decades.

Read this e-book Gallant Defender by AR Darshi. It is not written by Sikh author.

Harjit Ji:

You agree or not, sikhs have to blame themselves for lot of troubles. Firstly, you know Punjab is 42% scheduled caste and treatment of SCs in Punjab by Sikhs is not very far from the treatment metted out to them in Up or elsewhere. This was the reason, majority of SCs didn't vote for Punjabi sooba because they knew that if sikhs have their way, SCs will suffer more. In spite of GGS, punjab still has lot of "bandhak" majdoors.

How can you succeed in Punjab in getting your way when you are fighting against Ravidassia religion who you should join hands with. How can you mistreat 42% of Punjab population which is financially more or less quite strong now. You would have Khalistan right at Independence, if Master Tara Singh and his stooges had allowed Ambedkar to bring in millions of untouchables into Sikh fold. Please read "Sachi Sakhi" by Kapoor Singh, famous Sikh Historian.

Sikhs of the times were commenting to the like "Ki hun harmandir sahib choorayan chamaran nun de dayiye". This was their mentality than and almost same is now. They were worried about Ambedkar taking over their plush positions. Gandhi had nothing to do with it, as many sikhs claim.

I don't have to emphasize, how much low castes have contributed to survival and spread of sikhism. What did we get in return? A murder of Saint who brought numerous into folds of GGS. You go to some Guru Ravidass temples and they stop anybody who wears gathra now. How can one justify the killing with your concept of beadbi which has nothing to do with GGS and is a recent phenomenon.

One has to think why these problems didn't exist Pre bhinderwale period. Sikhism was spreading faster than and had high profile and you go outside of Punjab, if a sikh is sitting in a bus, nobody would smoke. But now, people smoke and put smoke on sikhs' face and if he objects, he is slapped and is told "Yo haryana sae, Punjab nahin".

What has sikhs gained by so much turmoil? What is it that sikhs wanted to be fixed? Why this beadbi mess didn't exist till Bhinderwale came..? Was GGS less respected than now...?

In my opinion, this all resulted out of politics. Sikhs had become very strong financially and started believing that they can have their own country and it doesn't take much in Punjab to instigate people on religious basis and Bhinderwale did just that to achieve what he believed in.

This is my last post on this topic...

[Matheen]

It's hard to take you seriously when you don't have much grasp of Punjab's recent history and don't want to read information handed to you. At leat read A.R.Darshi's book in the link above.

Cynthia Mahmood's book is also good, as are the human rights reports by Narayan and others, many of them pre-1984.

You have no idea what Sant Jarnail Singh Ji stood for or what he wanted. He was totally against any caste discrimination and was working towards ending it. He wasn't anti-Hindu either - listen to the speeches. If you want an example of someone who lived Guru Ji's teachings rather than talked about them, he's your man.

To claim that these problems didn't exist 'pre-Bhindranwale' as you put it, is ridiculous.

It's better not to comment on Ramanand's case until it is over - a lot of facts are going to come out and you won't like them all. It had nothing to do with caste, and not much to do with beadbi. There is no problem going into any Ravidas Gurudwara in the UK wearing all Kakkars - there's one just down the road from me.

If you had facts to back up your points, I would understand. But all you have are one-liners from politicians playing the caste game, or lies from anti-Sikh websites.

Guru Rakha.