sikh struggle

[rollingpunjab]

harjit you really need a history lesson, especially when it comes to sant ji. for crying out loud my 15 year old brother knows more about sant jarnail singh bhindranwale that you do.

Babbar Ji:

I really don't know much about him and I admit that. My only intro to him was through a tape that one of my sikh friends had brought (smuggled actually to delhi), where he was saying the following:

"Eh jo Delhi wich baithi mashkarian kardi hai (referring to Indira), kehndi hai sikh hathiar na rakhan, ohnu patta hona chahida hai ki sher kirpana rakhde ne, bakrian nahin"

"ek ek singh ne 35-35 hinduan nun gaddi charan hai"

He was openly instigating sikhs against killing hindus. Each Sikh killing 35 hindus. A Saint will not do that. Guru Gobind Singh Ji, even though he was labelled terrorist by Mughals, did not utter or commit any such act or statement. He did't take shelter in a gurudwara and take innocents as hostage. It was your own sikhs who didn't allow him (Guru Gobind Singh) to vist Harimandir Sahib even once in his lifetime. He didn't make hit lists. He didn't send his kharkoos to kill common people etc. In fact, he honored Bhai Kanahiya Ji when he was found serving water to muslim soldiers. He saved the lives of others. This is why Guru Gobind Singh is still alive today.

As far as Bhinderwale is concerned, yes he may be against casteism but the purpose of such people (who talk against casteism) is to basically give few crumbs or izzat to chooray/chamars and get them on their side and make them fight for sikhs cause. Such idiots than (like Beant Singh who killed Indira Gandhi), go ahead and kill. These people remain behind the scenes and make low castes fight for them instead. Same people send their children to Canada, USA, UK and get children of other poor sikhs killed in the name of khalistan or punjabi sooba etc.

Bhinderwale was a criminal who died a disgraceful death. He was shot while running away (at least that's what army said). Guru Gobind Singh sacrificed his family, Bhinderwale sacrificed other people's families.

Did you try to listen the entire speech of Sant ji

[rollingpunjab]

harjit you really need a history lesson, especially when it comes to sant ji. for crying out loud my 15 year old brother knows more about sant jarnail singh bhindranwale that you do.

Babbar Ji:

I really don't know much about him and I admit that. My only intro to him was through a tape that one of my sikh friends had brought (smuggled actually to delhi), where he was saying the following:

"Eh jo Delhi wich baithi mashkarian kardi hai (referring to Indira), kehndi hai sikh hathiar na rakhan, ohnu patta hona chahida hai ki sher kirpana rakhde ne, bakrian nahin"

"ek ek singh ne 35-35 hinduan nun gaddi charan hai"

He was openly instigating sikhs against killing hindus. Each Sikh killing 35 hindus. A Saint will not do that. Guru Gobind Singh Ji, even though he was labelled terrorist by Mughals, did not utter or commit any such act or statement. He did't take shelter in a gurudwara and take innocents as hostage. It was your own sikhs who didn't allow him (Guru Gobind Singh) to vist Harimandir Sahib even once in his lifetime. He didn't make hit lists. He didn't send his kharkoos to kill common people etc. In fact, he honored Bhai Kanahiya Ji when he was found serving water to muslim soldiers. He saved the lives of others. This is why Guru Gobind Singh is still alive today.

As far as Bhinderwale is concerned, yes he may be against casteism but the purpose of such people (who talk against casteism) is to basically give few crumbs or izzat to chooray/chamars and get them on their side and make them fight for sikhs cause. Such idiots than (like Beant Singh who killed Indira Gandhi), go ahead and kill. These people remain behind the scenes and make low castes fight for them instead. Same people send their children to Canada, USA, UK and get children of other poor sikhs killed in the name of khalistan or punjabi sooba etc.

Bhinderwale was a criminal who died a disgraceful death. He was shot while running away (at least that's what army said). Guru Gobind Singh sacrificed his family, Bhinderwale sacrificed other people's families.

did you listen to the complete speech or your friend took out the one liner from the speech to make you hate Sant ji...First listen the entire context and then comment...!

regarding hostages inside Golden temple...this is what Indian govt. controlled media fed to the masses in India and my illetrate contrymen followed it like something divine...!

anyways if hostages would have been inside the temple...do you seriously think all of them died in crossfire...how come even today there are no such people who say that they were held hostage inside Golden temple...where are those people now...not even single such statement recorded till date...holding somebody as a hostage is a big news...why it was not there in the news...?

Regarding kharkoos...after 9/11 in America sikhs were also at receiving end due to beard and turban...so you see it is damn easy to disguise as a sikh...just beard and turban yo0u need...thats what many kharkoos used to have...they were under central govt's controlled subordinates...there aim was to destroy the rising image of sant ji...hwoever may be 1 or 2 percent of actual sikhs were also involved who killed only those people against whom they had grudge like barbaraic police officers, leaders puking against sikhism and the Guru sahibs etc etc...that was what "kharkoo theory" was all about...!

you said beant singh who go ahead and kill for self benefits...now tell me what did bhindranwale achieved in living the life the way he did...what did beant singh (indira destroyer) got...death...which they knew was on the cards if they pursue their mission...beant singh didnt run after shooting her...he stayed their and achieved martrydom...it was obvious that his contrymen would give his family highest degree of neglection...yet he never changed his mind...do you think all those shaheeds did this karm just to see their kids get the Visa of UK, Canada or USA or the kids getting free education and other such benefits...what "low caste" issue did they involve...how many so called low caste people died with bhindranwale...how many so called chooray/chamar stood beside him when he was being brutally attacked...only few Rehetwaan Singhs were there...in the end what did they get...bad words from ill informed people like you for all the struugle they went through...!

Punjabi Sooba...Kindly address it "Sikh struggle for Punjabi Sooba"...as no other community was involved in that...this movement restored Punjabi language else it would have been finished by now...it would have been just like physical education or sanskrit in schools...an optional subject...and the way sanskrit is almost dead today...same thing would have happened to punjabi had there been no punjabi sooba movement...I request you to kindly do some research about it...it wasnt for personal benefit...it was for the benefit of Punjabi boli else it would been dead by now...!

Indian army and congress white paper said thousands of things about Sant ji...they had huge lists of allegations and crimes against him...but hardly any proof...where are the proofs...even till date there is not even single proof against Sant ji for all those allegations...like killing hindu families, extortions, hit lists etc etc...Can you put some light on it...?

[apnepart2]

Babbar Ji:

I really don't know much about him and I admit that. My only intro to him was through a tape that one of my sikh friends had brought (smuggled actually to delhi), where he was saying the following:

"Eh jo Delhi wich baithi mashkarian kardi hai (referring to Indira), kehndi hai sikh hathiar na rakhan, ohnu patta hona chahida hai ki sher kirpana rakhde ne, bakrian nahin"

"ek ek singh ne 35-35 hinduan nun gaddi charan hai"

I think it is not surprising to read your comments. Same half truths and twisted statements have caused you and your lot to declare 'seperate religion', you make the whole concept of religion laughable. Infact the statement about numbers should be an eyeopener for those who often boast about their 'numbers'. Communal Hindu leaders would threaten sikhs that there are infinte number of Hindus compared to Sikhs, to which they were replied their large numbers dont matter. In history the truthful have always suffered from less numbers. Take example of Bhagat Ravidas himself. Inspite of belonging to a large community, chamaars, he didnt have a mass following ever.

He was openly instigating sikhs against killing hindus. Each Sikh killing 35 hindus.

Instead of lying blantatly it would be better if you could back up your claims with some evidence. Is this what you have learned from Dera Balan - to lie shamefully and do nindya and chugli of people? You often wail and shed crocodile tears over lies of Sikhs ! What about you? Do low castes have 'reservation' for lying too?

A Saint will not do that. Guru Gobind Singh Ji, even though he was labelled terrorist by Mughals, did not utter or commit any such act or statement.

Dont you have any shame and self respect? How can you use this word for our great guru? Mughals classified him as 'rebel'. It just proves your knowledge of history and general grasp of world affairs. Read up who is a terrorist and when the term was started.

He did't take shelter in a gurudwara and take innocents as hostage. It was your own sikhs who didn't allow him (Guru Gobind Singh) to vist Harimandir Sahib even once in his lifetime. He didn't make hit lists. He didn't send his kharkoos to kill common people etc. In fact, he honored Bhai Kanahiya Ji when he was found serving water to muslim soldiers. He saved the lives of others. This is why Guru Gobind Singh is still alive today.

Guru Gobind Singh is present as Guru Granth sahib for us. Taking his example you should have preached your sant not to disrespect the saroop of Guru Gobind Singh by touching the rumalla with his feet. Whos example were dera Balan followers following when they created communal riots and damaged public property and cause a loss of 3000 crore? Did Bhagat Ravidas had a Dera? Did he incited his followers to act as goondas and burn public property and create communal riots? It were the chamaars who didnt regard him as a saint for centuries. And Guru Gobind Singh never visisted Harmandir sahib. It was Guru Tegh Bahadur who wasnt allowed by 'Non-Sikh mahants'. As i said before your history knowledge is ZERO.

As far as Bhinderwale is concerned, yes he may be against casteism but the purpose of such people (who talk against casteism) is to basically give few crumbs or izzat to chooray/chamars and get them on their side and make them fight for sikhs cause. Such idiots than (like Beant Singh who killed Indira Gandhi), go ahead and kill.

Bhindranwale wasnt arousing <edit> like you'. He preached only to Sikhs. I dont remember him giving any crumbs to people who had no love for Guru, especially those who have no faith in Sikh institutions. Did he disrespect any non-Sikh rituals and practises? Did he threaten your dera Balan? Beant Singh was a great shaheed of Sikh quam. And Bhindranwale died before him defending Akal Takht. By bringing caste into this you have once again shown your true colors.

Bhinderwale was a criminal who died a disgraceful death. He was shot while running away (at least that's what army said). Guru Gobind Singh sacrificed his family, Bhinderwale sacrificed other people's families.

Any evidence? i say sant Ramanand was g@y and was going to die from @ids, but was saved from disgrace by getting killed. Bhagat Ravidas asked everyone to love God but Sant Ramanad <edit>

[harjits4]

rollingpunjab and others:

I did hear the full speech. I heard it many years ago and it was before Indira was killed so extra ordinary statements do stand out out and you remember. At that point, no specific mob violence was being committed against Sikhs by hindius. The normal stuff, he talked about, one doesn't remember after some time. He did preach specific killing of 35 hindus by each sikh. I don't know why 35 is the number but it was the number. The context was a strong statement made by Indira Gandhi to disarm Bhinderwale and his coterie. Well, the guy is finished so no point in talking about him. He is gone for good. I won't call him terrorist anymore. It is true that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. So let me give him some benefit of doubt for the time being and assume for the moment that some antisocial elements took advantage of his position and killed innocents.

Now I did discuss mariada of GGS as discussed by Singh and asked couple of questions for discussion but nobody has bothered to reply on that issue. Does it touch a raw nerve with you guys?

Here I am posting it again. The reason it is important because this has been the cause of trouble between Sikhs and other religious groups in Punjab, whichever they are.

"Singh Ji, I like your example of spitting. Let's extend it further. We followed the bani of Guru Granth Sahib and we addressed it as guru and we still respect it. When you address someone as guru, what is one supposed to do..? Yes, follow what guru says (I got this discussion from somewhere else, but it has weight). Now if my guru says, do xyz and I do abc, do you think my guru, irrespective of whether it is human or not, would like me or would be happy with me. Since I am not following his orders, guru will not like me even though I may taek him matha forever.

So if Guru Granth Sahib says that Saints should be respected and dust of their feet should be put on forhead (literaly similar is the wording in Guru Granth Sahib by Guru Nanak Dev Ji) and if this teaching has been imparted to me by my elders than what should I do? I touch the feet of Saints in presence of Guru Granth Sahib respectfully while keeping in mind that I am following message in Guru Granth Sahib. Where am I wrong...? You may bring in sikh Rehat Mariada but than if Guru Granth Sahib is a universal granth than why sikh Mariada is forced upon groups who are not sikhs. It is my belief that everybody should be allowed to have their own mariada as long as it jives well with teachings in Guru Granth Sahib. So this spitting example that you gave will fail in the case of beadbi because nothing such is attributed to in Guru Granth Sahib and in general it is a mark of disrespect, while respecting Saints in presence of Guru Granth Sahib is merely follwing the message of Guru Granth Sahib an touching feet is respect.

Naamdhari (kukas) also touch the feet of their gurus in presence of Guru Granth Sahib. "

And I am not a Ballan follower etc. I haven't been there. I have no obligation or mission to preach their theory. But like millions of other ravidassias in India and abroad, I respect their call for Ravidassia Religiona and their community work.

Does mariada or mode of respect of GGS comes from GGS or should it be man made like Sikh Rehat mariada (SRM)? IF SRM id for Sikhs than what for others? Should others not follow GGS? If it is SRM that everybody needs to follow when GGS is kept there than good riddance from GGS. No wonder that every religious group in Punjab (latest Ravidassia) is getting rid of GGS from their gurudwaras gradually.

[harjits4]

Harjit, if you can't be bothered to learn the truth about Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, at least don't accuse them of stuff they didn't do. Did you listen to the entire speech and put it in context? Have you heard the rest of the speeches?

Show me the army report that says Sant Ji was shot while running away?! Immediately after, General Brar was recorded saying "they fought like lions" - the video is on Youtube somewhere. Please read the book by A.R. Darshi, a Hindu magistrate from Punjab. The link has been given, there no excuse for your ignorance now.

Answer one simple question: why do you (personally) follow religion, any religion?

Matheen, religion is everybody's personal matter. I follow religion for peace of mind, that's it. I don't follow it for magic, miracles. I follow religion and scriptures to get some answers for doubts in my mind. GGS has the right message but that message is unfortunately engulfed in code of conduct which forces you to think about code rather than the message in holy book. There is so much focus on rituals that message is secondary.

As far as people in Golden temple fighting like lions, even Talibans who are now kidnapping and killing sikhs are fighting like lions. A lot better and a superior lions as compared to so-called low class sikh lions who believe mostly in killing in cold blood inside gurudwaras or other public places and blasting bombs in cinema theatres.

As they say, "marta kya na karta". Army was not going to spare them any way. The sikh lions couldn't even face Punjab Police while Taliban lions are facing USA and allied forces. So don't live in la la land of so called sikh lions. They were rag tag group of militants poisoned by doctrine of hate and misplaced feeling of mistreatment of sikhs by others. No mistreatment of sikhs existed at that time. Water problems faced by a state should not be the reason to ask for a new country and kill hundreds and thousands in cold blood (whether sikhs lives or others).

One reader has asked what did Bhinderwale and Beant Singh gained for loosing their lives. My answer is same what Talibans are gaining now i.e zilch, zero, nothing.

[harjits4]

Babbar Ji:

I really don't know much about him and I admit that. My only intro to him was through a tape that one of my sikh friends had brought (smuggled actually to delhi), where he was saying the following:

"Eh jo Delhi wich baithi mashkarian kardi hai (referring to Indira), kehndi hai sikh hathiar na rakhan, ohnu patta hona chahida hai ki sher kirpana rakhde ne, bakrian nahin"

"ek ek singh ne 35-35 hinduan nun gaddi charan hai"

I think it is not surprising to read your comments. Same half truths and twisted statements have caused you and your lot to declare 'seperate religion', you make the whole concept of religion laughable. Infact the statement about numbers should be an eyeopener for those who often boast about their 'numbers'. Communal Hindu leaders would threaten sikhs that there are infinte number of Hindus compared to Sikhs, to which they were replied their large numbers dont matter. In history the truthful have always suffered from less numbers. Take example of Bhagat Ravidas himself. Inspite of belonging to a large community, chamaars, he didnt have a mass following ever.

He was openly instigating sikhs against killing hindus. Each Sikh killing 35 hindus.

Instead of lying blantatly it would be better if you could back up your claims with some evidence. Is this what you have learned from Dera Balan - to lie shamefully and do nindya and chugli of people? You often wail and shed crocodile tears over lies of Sikhs ! What about you? Do low castes have 'reservation' for lying too?

A Saint will not do that. Guru Gobind Singh Ji, even though he was labelled terrorist by Mughals, did not utter or commit any such act or statement.

Dont you have any shame and self respect? How can you use this word for our great guru? Mughals classified him as 'rebel'. It just proves your knowledge of history and general grasp of world affairs. Read up who is a terrorist and when the term was started.

He did't take shelter in a gurudwara and take innocents as hostage. It was your own sikhs who didn't allow him (Guru Gobind Singh) to vist Harimandir Sahib even once in his lifetime. He didn't make hit lists. He didn't send his kharkoos to kill common people etc. In fact, he honored Bhai Kanahiya Ji when he was found serving water to muslim soldiers. He saved the lives of others. This is why Guru Gobind Singh is still alive today.

Guru Gobind Singh is present as Guru Granth sahib for us. Taking his example you should have preached your sant not to disrespect the saroop of Guru Gobind Singh by touching the rumalla with his feet. Whos example were dera Balan followers following when they created communal riots and damaged public property and cause a loss of 3000 crore? Did Bhagat Ravidas had a Dera? Did he incited his followers to act as goondas and burn public property and create communal riots? It were the chamaars who didnt regard him as a saint for centuries. And Guru Gobind Singh never visisted Harmandir sahib. It was Guru Tegh Bahadur who wasnt allowed by 'Non-Sikh mahants'. As i said before your history knowledge is ZERO.

As far as Bhinderwale is concerned, yes he may be against casteism but the purpose of such people (who talk against casteism) is to basically give few crumbs or izzat to chooray/chamars and get them on their side and make them fight for sikhs cause. Such idiots than (like Beant Singh who killed Indira Gandhi), go ahead and kill.

Bhindranwale wasnt arousing <edit> like you'. He preached only to Sikhs. I dont remember him giving any crumbs to people who had no love for Guru, especially those who have no faith in Sikh institutions. Did he disrespect any non-Sikh rituals and practises? Did he threaten your dera Balan? Beant Singh was a great shaheed of Sikh quam. And Bhindranwale died before him defending Akal Takht. By bringing caste into this you have once again shown your true colors.

Bhinderwale was a criminal who died a disgraceful death. He was shot while running away (at least that's what army said). Guru Gobind Singh sacrificed his family, Bhinderwale sacrificed other people's families.

Any evidence? i say sant Ramanand was g@y and was going to die from @ids, but was saved from disgrace by getting killed. Bhagat Ravidas asked everyone to love God but Sant Ramanad <edit>

Yes, apnepart2, Bhinderwale didn't disrespect any other religion institutions. He merely ordered the person/group who didn't toe its line to be killed. If he had dared to disrespect any other religious institution, he would have been finished long before. He did speak openly about killing others. He was a smart and cunning operator and knew the mass mindset of punjab very well.

If I don't know much about Bhinderwale then you don't know much about Sant Rama Nand also. So both of us are in same boat. What you are basing your views are on stories read in such forums which openly endorse killing. I, at least, have heard Bhinderwale speaking himself. If Sant Rama Nand had been the character you describe him to be, people wouldn't have come out on streets in anguish. I know you complain lot about property damage. At least, those guys didn't engage in killing. Lot of looting of liquour shops was done by jatts of some villages who, believe it or not, joined hands with chamars etc.

-- Bhinderwale engaged in killing people for whatever reason while Sant Rama nand engaged in spreading peaceful mission of Guru Ravidass Ji

-- Bhinderwale ordered killing of ones who didn't toe his line while Sant Rama Nand respected the fdifferences.

-- Bhinderwale spread the message of hate while Sant Rama nand spread message of GGS.

-- Bhinderwale has armed guard protecting him god knows from what while Sant Rama Nand had no such luxury and believed in God and that everybody has his time.

-- People had a sigh of relief in Punjab when Bhinderwale was killed while people were drowned in sorrow when when Sant Rama Nand was killed

-- Bhinderwale was given funeral by state while Sant rama Nand was given state funeral.

Don't link me with Dera Ballan. I haven't been there even but I do agree with them for declaration of new religion.Supporting someone's action doesn't mean I am their follower.

[Matheen]

Harjit ji,

That speech is still on the net - Sant Ji just rebukes some politician who says that Sikhs are outnumbered by using Guru Ji's line 'sava lake se ek lardaoun' - he said 1 Sikh could face 35 people, so we are not outnumbered. Listen to his other speeches as well, or speak to people who knew him - if you're in the UK, I can hook you up. The fact is that Sant Ji helped more Hindus than the govt ever did. ALL Punjabis were being discriminated against by the Centre, but sadly, only the Sikhs took up the challange to secure Punjab's rights.

The question of respecting Guru Sahib is beyond any Maryada. For us, Guru Ji is the living form of the 10 Gurus (and indeed, of the Bhagats) and all our respect comes from that fact. Guru Granth Sahib Ji does mention how a Guru should be respected, the rest comes from sharda.

There is more to the Ramanand saga than meets the eye - the case in Austria will be interesting. If you're in the UK, speak to Gyani Harjit Singh from Ravidas Gurudwara in Manor park, East London. He'll tell you the truth about Ramanand.

[harjits4]

Harjit ji,

That speech is still on the net - Sant Ji just rebukes some politician who says that Sikhs are outnumbered by using Guru Ji's line 'sava lake se ek lardaoun' - he said 1 Sikh could face 35 people, so we are not outnumbered. Listen to his other speeches as well, or speak to people who knew him - if you're in the UK, I can hook you up. The fact is that Sant Ji helped more Hindus than the govt ever did. ALL Punjabis were being discriminated against by the Centre, but sadly, only the Sikhs took up the challange to secure Punjab's rights.

The question of respecting Guru Sahib is beyond any Maryada. For us, Guru Ji is the living form of the 10 Gurus (and indeed, of the Bhagats) and all our respect comes from that fact. Guru Granth Sahib Ji does mention how a Guru should be respected, the rest comes from sharda.

There is more to the Ramanand saga than meets the eye - the case in Austria will be interesting. If you're in the UK, speak to Gyani Harjit Singh from Ravidas Gurudwara in Manor park, East London. He'll tell you the truth about Ramanand.

Matheen Ji:

Jai Gurudev Ji!

If based on what you say

"The question of respecting Guru Sahib is beyond any Maryada. For us, Guru Ji is the living form of the 10 Gurus (and indeed, of the Bhagats) and all our respect comes from that fact. Guru Granth Sahib Ji does mention how a Guru should be respected, the rest comes from sharda."

Than, if Guru Gobind Singh hadn't ordained GGS as final and living guru (which btw is disputed by some historians and some sikh groups themselves like Kukas, Naamdharis, Nirankaris etc.) than the respect given to GGS would not have been same. I would like to know in your words how Guru Should be respected as mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib?

I agree with you that rest comes from Shraddha and Shraddha is also a personal concept so why should not individual groups be not allowed to express their shraddha in their own manner as long as it doesn't violate GGS teachings.

In the same tone, if GGS says that "dust of feet of Saints/Gurus should be cherished) than should one follow what Sikh Mariada says in particular (no touching of anybody's feet before GGS) or should we follow what is mentioned in GGS?

Obviously, for the last few decades, Sikh mariada is being given more importance than message of bani itself. In other words, ritiualism has become more important than what bani really teaches because rituals are so easy to follow while living a virtuous life is so hard. This is the reason, the sinister minded people kill virtuous people because they fear their truthful living and see their "singhasans" or thrones shaking.

Sikhs have been so rigid on mariada primarily because they are realizing that other modes of following GGS is more attractive and meaningful (santmat). Following Saints doesn't make one weak or a docile human being.

It was not Bhinderwale but a peaceful Sant Kabir who said "Soora so pehchaniye Jo larre din ke haet" "Purza purza katt marre...".