Reply To Harinder On Topic Vishnu Avtar Or Gurmukh Sikhs

[N30S1NGH]

Who is talking about sri dasam granth sahib singh? I am talking about bhata daie svaies.

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||

In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||

You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||

In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||

[N30S1NGH]

Invocation of chaubis avtar in Dasam Granth is praise of akal purakh and does not support theory that god descends to earth as an Avtar.He is creator of these avtars and is supreme authority.

Whilst fully acknowledging akaal purkh is ultimate power and he is the one who create and destroys avtars as it bluntly stated in gurbani so there is confusion, having said that, avtarvaad concept is pretty much accepted in gurmat and gurbani:

Jab Jab Arsat Hot Sansara || Tab Tab Deh Dharat Avtara || (Bachitar Natak)

[GhostWriter]

Could someone explain the meaning of kalaa?

[vjkaram]

its sad that some Sikhs like N3O, Kam1825 et al are violating Gurbani verse that says that Satguru should be praised as great - sathigur vaddaa kar saalaaheeai jis vich vaddeeaa vaddiaaeeaa ||

by calling Guru Nanak and his forms as Avtars of similar level as Krishan and Ram, you guys are not praising Satguru as Vadda.

And all this hindu stuff as Ansa Avtar and this Avtar and that Avtar is not mentioned anywhere in Gurbani. This stuff is based on hindu holy texts and don't apply to Sikhi. its sad that this site has become a platform of hinduizing the Sikh faith.

[vjkaram]

Whilst fully acknowledging akaal purkh is ultimate power and he is the one who create and destroys avtars as it bluntly stated in gurbani so there is confusion, having said that, avtarvaad concept is pretty much accepted in gurmat and gurbani:

Jab Jab Arsat Hot Sansara || Tab Tab Deh Dharat Avtara || (Bachitar Natak)

who says that avtarvaad concept is accepted in gurmat and gurbani? the Mool Mantar clearly states that Akal Purakh is "Ajooni" which means he does not take Avtar. Gurbani says that may such mouth be set on fire that says that Thakur Akal Purakh takes avtar.

[Jai Tegang!]

its sad that some Sikhs like N3O, Kam1835 et al are violating Gurbani verse that says that Satguru should be praised as great - sathigur vaddaa kar saalaaheeai jis vich vaddeeaa vaddiaaeeaa ||

by calling Guru Nanak and his forms as Avtars of similar level as Krishan and Ram, you guys are not praising Satguru as Vadda.

And all this hindu stuff as Ansa Avtar and this Avtar and that Avtar is not mentioned anywhere in Gurbani. This stuff is based on hindu holy texts and don't apply to Sikhi. its sad that this site has become a platform of hinduizing the Sikh faith.

No one is saying Guru Ji is same as Ram or Krishan. Guru Ji are Guru Avtar, shakshyiat Parbrahm(ie. Sargun saroop) with Sarb Kala, quite different from Vishnu avtars ( also to be highly recpected for their service in accordance to Vaheguru's wishes).

"Hindu" paranoia is leading to nindyia and so much misunderstanding. These are OUR concepts not Hindu concepts. This is the truth of all yugs.

[Harinder_Singh]

No one is saying Guru Ji is same as Ram or Krishan. Guru Ji are Guru Avtar, shakshyiat Parbrahm(ie. Sargun saroop) with Sarb Kala, quite different from Vishnu avtars ( also to be highly recpected for their service in accordance to Vaheguru's wishes).

"Hindu" paranoia is leading to nindyia and so much misunderstanding. These are OUR concepts not Hindu concepts. This is the truth of all yugs.

Vishnu avataars shud be praised for their good actions ( of killing ravana and kans ) but at the same time they have to held accountable for their wrong actions, of misusing the powers given to them by God. These avataars are subject to Kaal which means they had to give lekhaa to Dharam Rai. Krishan had to give lekhaa for his illicit relations with Gopis and for calling himself Brahm(God).

[GPS]

Bhatta de swaiye are in praise of our guru sahib and not any avtar.

[GPS]

In sikhism God is great and his acts cann't be limited.It does not endorse the descending of God to this earth in any form.

sglI QIiq pwis fwir rwKI ] Astm QIiq goivMd jnmw sI ]1] (1136-2, BYrau, mÚ 5)

saglee theet paas daar raakhee. astam theet govind janmaa see. ||1||

Setting aside all other days, it is said that the Lord was born on the eighth lunar day. ||1||

Brim BUly nr krq kcrwiex ] (1136-2, BYrau, mÚ 5)

bharam bhoolay nar karat kachraa-in.

Deluded and confused by doubt, the mortal practices falsehood.

jnm mrx qy rhq nwrwiex ]1] rhwau ] (1136-3, BYrau, mÚ 5)

janam maran tay rahat naaraa-in. ||1|| rahaa-o.

The Lord is beyond birth and death. ||1||Pause||

kir pMjIru KvwieE cor ] (1136-3, BYrau, mÚ 5)

kar panjeer khavaa-i-o chor.

You prepare sweet treats and feed them to your stone god.

Ehu jnim n mrY ry swkq For ]2] (1136-3, BYrau, mÚ 5)

oh janam na marai ray saakat dhor. ||2||

God is not born, and He does not die, you foolish, faithless cynic! ||2||

sgl prwD dyih loronI ] (1136-4, BYrau, mÚ 5)

sagal paraaDh deh loronee.

You sing lullabyes to your stone god - this is the source of all your mistakes.

so muKu jlau ijqu khih Twkuru jonI ]3] (1136-4, BYrau, mÚ 5)

so mukh jala-o jit kaheh thaakur jonee. ||3||

Let that mouth be burnt, which says that our Lord and Master is subject to birth. ||3||

jnim n mrY n AwvY n jwie ] (1136-5, BYrau, mÚ 5)

janam na marai na aavai na jaa-ay.

He is not born, and He does not die; He does not come and go in reincarnation.

ang 1136

ਜੋ ਚਉਬੀਸ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥

जो चउबीस अवतार कहाए ॥

Those who are called twenty-four incarnations;

ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਤੁਮ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤਨਿਕ ਨ ਪਾਏ ॥

तिन भी तुम प्रभ तनिक न पाए ॥

O Lord ! they even could not realise thee in a small measure;

ਸਭ ਹੀ ਜਗ ਭਰਮੇ ਭਵ ਰਾਯੰ ॥

सभ ही जग भरमे भव रायं ॥

They became kings of the world and got deluded;

ਤਾ ਤੇ ਨਾਮ ਬਿਅੰਤ ਕਹਾਯੰ ॥੭॥

ता ते नाम बिअंत कहायं ॥७॥

Therefore they were called by innumerable names.7.

Chaubis avtar, Dasam granth

jugh jugh ky rwjy kIey gwvih kir AvqwrI ] (423-6, Awsw, mÚ 3)

jugah jugah kay raajay kee-ay gaavahi kar avtaaree.

In each and every age, He creates the kings, who are sung of as His Incarnations.

iqn BI AMqu n pwieAw qw kw ikAw kir AwiK vIcwrI ]7] (423-6, Awsw, mÚ 3)

tin bhee ant na paa-i-aa taa kaa ki-aa kar aakh veechaaree. ||7||

Even they have not found His limits; what can I speak of and contemplate? ||7||

ang 423

The emphasis is on greatness of supreme entity that is akal purakh who creates such avtars.

The message of our Guru sahib is very clear

ਪਾਂਇ ਗਹੇ ਜਬ ਤੇ ਤੁਮਰੇ ਤਬ ਤੇ ਕੋਊ ਆਂਖ ਤਰੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਨਯੋ॥

ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਕੁਰਾਨ, ਅਨੇਕ ਕਹੈ, ਮਤਿ ਏਕ ਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ॥

ਸਿਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਬੇਦ ਸਬੈ ਬਹੁ ਭੇਦ ਕਹੈ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਨ ਜਾਨਯੋ॥

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਅਸਿਪਾਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਕਰਿ ਮੈ ਨ ਕਹਯੋ ਸਬ ਤੋਹਿ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ॥863॥

Dasam granth sahib

[kam1825]

VJKaram it is quite obviously either your reading is not up to standard or your buddhi cannot follow the thread. Have you seen Sant Giani Gurbachan Singh jis details on the Avtars and how the Guru Avtar is the greatest and we have saisd this again and again but for some reason you have not read that and come up to some conclusion wihtout taking in all of our posts! Did we not post how the Guru Avtar is greater is Shakti, Viaktee, Aayo, Katab and Pragya? Or have i just dreamed this all up?

"who says that avtarvaad concept is accepted in gurmat and gurbani? the Mool Mantar clearly states that Akal Purakh is "Ajooni" which means he does not take Avtar. Gurbani says that may such mouth be set on fire that says that Thakur Akal Purakh takes avtar."

Is the above all you have read from Gurbani. What about the Bhatt Savaiyas - is that all Kachi bani and falsehood. So where it states in the Bhatt Savaiyas

ਆਪਿ ਨਰਾਇਣੁ ਕਲਾ ਧਾਰਿ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਵਰਿਯਉ ॥

aap naraaein kalaa dhhaar jag mehi paravariyo ||

The Lord Himself wielded His Power and entered the world.

6 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਗ ਮੰਡਲਿ ਕਰਿਯਉ ॥

nirankaar aakaar joth jag manddal kariyo ||

The Formless Lord took form, and with His Light He illuminated the realms of the world.

6 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat

must be a lie. No it isn't it it your phobia to the real aspects of Sikhi that deludes you and you regard it as hinduism! Instead you try to change Sikhi to a more Islamic approach. Tell me was Gurur Nana Dev Ji born? What does Bhai Gurdas Ji say ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਆ ਮਿਟੀ ਧੁੰਧੁ ਜਗਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਆ । I see the word Pargat which means manifest and not born or given birth to. Please read Gurbilas Patshahi 6 to understand how all the Gurus manifest and were not born and the game the Lord played in order to assume a sargun form. Next question did Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji die? Did he leave a mortal body? Did he enter the cycle of transmigration? If the answers are no then the criteira for Ajooni is complete but for further sources i suggest reading the Gurbilas P6, Nanak Parkash, Bhatta De Savayais. Then tell me what the stand on avtars are in this faith and Was the Guru Parmatma in a Sargun form?

Or simple as this and i will be blunt as we could go on forever. Is everything i have said aove actually Sikhism including the bani and Ithaas or complete and utter <banned word filter activated>!