Reply To Harinder On Topic Vishnu Avtar Or Gurmukh Sikhs

[apnepart2]

Aasaa, Fifth Mehl: A frown creases her forehead, and her look is evil. Her speech is bitter, and her tongue is rude. She is always hungry, and she believes her Husband to be far away. ||1||

Such is Maya, the woman, which the One Lord has created. Administering her poisons, she has overcome the whole world. She has bewitched Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Only those Gurmukhs who are attuned to the Naam are blessed. ||2||

Performing fasts, religious observances and atonements, the mortals have grown weary. They wander over the entire planet, on pilgrimages to the banks of sacred rivers. But they alone are saved, who seek the Sanctuary of the True Guru. ||3||

Attached to Maya, the whole world is in bondage. The foolish self-willed manmukhs are consumed by their egotism. Taking me by the arm, Guru Nanak has saved me. ||4||2||96||

Which catagory of Avtaar does she [maya] fall into? Where can find a Text which praises Maya?

[N30S1NGH]

Bhatta de swaiye are in praise of our guru sahib and not any avtar.

Playing with semantics is becoming old broken record now. It's pretty clear, how shabad in bhataie svaieyes talking about nirgun vahiguroo transcendented his attributes(not all as vahiguroo is ajooni but most) in form of sargun saroop at different times and known different names to kill tyranny and uphold the fearlessness and dharam.

This is totally aligned with gurbani tuk from bachitar natak:

Jab Jab Arsat Hot Sansara || Tab Tab Deh Dharat Avtara ||

[GPS]

This is totally aligned with gurbani tuk from bachitar natak:

Jab Jab Arsat Hot Sansara || Tab Tab Deh Dharat Avtara ||

The above is not from Bachitra natak. It is from Chaubis avtar. Here guru sahib is stressing on greatness of God who is master of these avtars.Read next lines also that say God sees this happening and is ultimate destroyer of all.

There is a difference here. Hinduism says that these avtars were Gods in themselves. They say there is no God above them.

But sikhism says that they were creation of akal purakh and ultimately he destroys them. In simple language God manifests in his creation just as he manifests in all of us. These avtars had greater potential than us but they were not an alternative of Lord and hence should not be compared to akal purakh.Read last two lines that are very important to get understanding of this

ਆਪਨ ਰੂਪ ਅਨੰਤਨ ਧਰਹੀ ॥

आपन रूप अनंतन धरही ॥

He manifests Himself in innumerable forms,

ਆਪਹਿ ਮਧਿ ਲੀਨ ਪੁਨਿ ਕਰਹੀ ॥੩॥

आपहि मधि लीन पुनि करही ॥३॥

And Himself merges all within Himself

Chaubis avtar, dasam granth

ਚੌਪਈ ॥

चौपई ॥

CHAUPAI

ਜਬ ਜਬ ਹੋਤ ਅਰਿਸਟ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥

जब जब होत अरिसट अपारा ॥

Whenever numerous tyrants take birth,

ਤਬ ਤਬ ਦੇਹ ਧਰਤ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ ॥

तब तब देह धरत अवतारा ॥

Then the Lord manifests himself in physical form;

ਕਾਲ ਸਭਨ ਕੋ ਪੇਖ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥

काल सभन को पेख तमासा ॥

The KAL (Destroyer Lord) scans the play of all,

ਅੰਤਹ ਕਾਲ ਕਰਤ ਹੈ ਨਾਸਾ ॥੨॥

अंतह काल करत है नासा ॥२॥

And ultimately destroys all.2.

ਚੌਪਈ ॥

चौपई ॥

CHAUPAI

ਕਾਲ ਸਭਨ ਕਾ ਕਰਤ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥

काल सभन का करत पसारा ॥

The KAL (Destroyer Lord) causes the expansion of all;

ਅੰਤ ਕਾਲਿ ਸੋਈ ਖਾਪਨਿਹਾਰਾ ॥

अंत कालि सोई खापनिहारा ॥

The same Temporal Lord ultimately destroys all;

ਆਪਨ ਰੂਪ ਅਨੰਤਨ ਧਰਹੀ ॥

आपन रूप अनंतन धरही ॥

He manifests Himself in innumerable forms,

ਆਪਹਿ ਮਧਿ ਲੀਨ ਪੁਨਿ ਕਰਹੀ ॥੩॥

आपहि मधि लीन पुनि करही ॥३॥

And Himself merges all within Hmself

Chaubis avtar, dasam granth

Some salient features of these avtars from sikh point of view.

1 They are not considered as birthless or deathless.

2 They were not able to comprehend akal purakh

3 they are not to be revered.

4 They were not self created but came with order of akal purakh and were subsumed by akal purakh.

[apnepart2]

^beautiful !

[N30S1NGH]

GPS,

Thanks for correcting me, for some reason i thought it was from bachitar natak, my apologies.

But sikhism says that they were creation of akal purakh and ultimately he destroys them. In simple language God manifests in his creation just as he manifests in all of us. These avtars had greater potential than us but they were not an alternative of Lord and hence should not be compared to akal purakh.Read last two lines that are very important to get understanding of this

First of all, who is comparing these avtars to akaal purkh nirgun? and who is making them alternative of Lord?. I myself make it very clear that vahiguroo is ajooni in bold...terms like nirgun vahiguroo transcendenting attributes not all but most, are written all over previous and initial. statements like in bold- Whilst fully acknowledging akaal purkh is ultimate power and he is the one who create and destroys avtars as it bluntly stated in gurbani , having said that, avtarvaad concept is pretty much accepted in gurmat and gurbani. They are written all over previous posts.

I am and I am sure Kam is too simply standing up against this attitude of sikhs these days for some reason, they think its moral duty to slander previous avtars of yugas, these days sikhs cannot go to tatti or go kriya(polite speaking) before they mock avatars, deities.

Ki gaal ehna nuo koi puchaie hazma karab aa??

[Only five]

GPS,

Thanks for correcting me, for some reason i thought it was from bachitar natak, my apologies.

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First of all, who is comparing these avtars to akaal purkh nirgun? and who is making them alternative of Lord?.

N30 Singh are you saying then Krishna is the sargun form of Waheguru?

VJKaram it is quite obviously either your reading is not up to standard or your buddhi cannot follow the thread. Have you seen Sant Giani Gurbachan Singh jis details on the Avtars and how the Guru Avtar is the greatest and we have saisd this again and again but for some reason you have not read that and come up to some conclusion wihtout taking in all of our posts! Did we not post how the Guru Avtar is greater is Shakti, Viaktee, Aayo, Katab and Pragya? Or have i just dreamed this all up?

"who says that avtarvaad concept is accepted in gurmat and gurbani? the Mool Mantar clearly states that Akal Purakh is "Ajooni" which means he does not take Avtar. Gurbani says that may such mouth be set on fire that says that Thakur Akal Purakh takes avtar."

Is the above all you have read from Gurbani. What about the Bhatt Savaiyas - is that all Kachi bani and falsehood. So where it states in the Bhatt Savaiyas

ਆਪਿ ਨਰਾਇਣੁ ਕਲਾ ਧਾਰਿ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਵਰਿਯਉ ॥

aap naraaein kalaa dhhaar jag mehi paravariyo ||

The Lord Himself wielded His Power and entered the world.

6 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਜਗ ਮੰਡਲਿ ਕਰਿਯਉ ॥

nirankaar aakaar joth jag manddal kariyo ||

The Formless Lord took form, and with His Light He illuminated the realms of the world.

6 Sava-yay (praise of Guru Amar Das Kirat

must be a lie. No it isn't it it your phobia to the real aspects of Sikhi that deludes you and you regard it as hinduism! Instead you try to change Sikhi to a more Islamic approach. Tell me was Gurur Nana Dev Ji born? What does Bhai Gurdas Ji say ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਿਆ ਮਿਟੀ ਧੁੰਧੁ ਜਗਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਹੋਆ । I see the word Pargat which means manifest and not born or given birth to. Please read Gurbilas Patshahi 6 to understand how all the Gurus manifest and were not born and the game the Lord played in order to assume a sargun form. Next question did Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji die? Did he leave a mortal body? Did he enter the cycle of transmigration? If the answers are no then the criteira for Ajooni is complete but for further sources i suggest reading the Gurbilas P6, Nanak Parkash, Bhatta De Savayais. Then tell me what the stand on avtars are in this faith and Was the Guru Parmatma in a Sargun form?

Or simple as this and i will be blunt as we could go on forever. Is everything i have said aove actually Sikhism including the bani and Ithaas or complete and utter <banned word filter activated>!

Thanks Kam this blunt post was much needed. What are people smoking trying to put limits on Waheguru.

[N30S1NGH]

Only five,

Please listen to gyani thakur singh ji katha on japji sahib coming from seena basina from taksal, it was also translated too in english two years ago. Your query is listed there in detail especially parsang from gyani thakur singh ji katha on japji sahib where upon request of arjuna, krishan maharaj shows vahiguroo's variaat saroop through him.

[Only five]

Only five,

Please listen to gyani thakur singh ji katha on japji sahib coming from seena basina from taksal, it was also translated too in english two years ago. Your query is listed there in detail especially parsang from gyani thakur singh ji katha on japji sahib where upon request of arjuna, krishan maharaj shows vahiguroo's variaat saroop through him.

Is this Katha in Gurmat veechar section or somewhere else. Also SIngh in brief can you explain what he said. Will listen to the Katha once I find it.

Note to Mod's: please don't close this thread. For the longest time we finally have a topic where we can learn from and ask learned people questions. If people are acting badly please just warn them and delete their post.

[GPS]

And all this hindu stuff as Ansa Avtar and this Avtar and that Avtar is not mentioned anywhere in Gurbani. This stuff is based on hindu holy texts and don't apply to Sikhi. its sad that this site has become a platform of hinduizing the Sikh faith.

You need to read Gurbani carefully. It does mention about avtars creation per order of akal purakh.

Sikhism is not that fragile as some seem to think.

[ms514]

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Sigh...TOO MANY WORDS!!!!!!!

Look, Gurus = saviors of Kalyug. Gurbani states this, as do the Vaaran "Sabh Te Vadda Satgur Nanak, Jin KAL Rakhi Meri"; "Kal Taaran Gur Nanak Ayaa" in Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Sahib.

Asa Ki Vaar - pangti about Raths (chariots) describe the differences in the yugs.

Nanak Mer Sreer KaaEk Rahh EikRthhavaahu ||

Jug Jug Faer Vattaaeeahi Giaanee Bujhehi Thaahi ||

Sathajug Rathh Sa(n)thokh Kaa Dhharam Agai Rathhavaahu ||

Thraethai Rathh Jathai kaa Jor Agai Rathhavaahu ||

Dhuaapur Rathh Thapai Kaa Sath Agai Rathhavaahu ||

Kalajug Rathh Agan Kaa Koorr Agai Rathhavaahu ||1||

Salok, First Mehla:

O Nanak, the soul of the body has one chariot and one charioteer.

In age after age they change; the spiritually wise understand this.

In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, contentment was the chariot and righteousness the charioteer.

In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, celibacy was the chariot and power the charioteer.

In the Brass Age of Dwaapar Yuga, penance was the chariot and truth the charioteer.

In the Iron Age of Kali Yuga, fire is the chariot and falsehood the charioteer. ||1||

Asa Ki Vaar

(Granted that the yugs have also been viewed as spiritual states of a human "Ik Ghari Na Miltae Ta Kaljug Hota", but this moorakh is taking the pangti at face value).

So we are trying to apply same standards from Kalyug to other yugs, which does NOT hold.

Who is superior, wh is inferior - WHO CARES? As a Sikh, you have the Guru, Shabad Guru and Panch Pardhani Guru Punj Pyare. Gurbani is Aagadh Bodh - there is no end to its depth, but it also has simplicity for the simpletons like me in the world for guidance. Taksali Kathakars mention that it takes 36 years to properly study and understand the Vedas. Jugs used to take HUNDREDS of years to do (Asmegh Jug was specifically mentioned - mass sacrifice of horses). That is all good in olden yugs, where lives were very long. But the STANDARD of Kalyug was explained in Gurbani that "Kai Kotak Jug Phalaa, Sun Gavanhare Raam". Trying to apply other yug standards to the current one may lead to passing away from old age before anything is accomplished. That is why Kalyug has "Kaljug Mai Keertan Pardhana". Naam has been ever present and granted to all those who go before Guru Sahib and are blessed with it. What more do you need?

Stop trying to compare different yugs to Kalyug. It seems that everyone is desparate to make sure Guru Sahib was the most superior one. Stop being so worried about it. If you have that much doubt, go read the Vedas, the Qua'ran, the Bible and other texts and you will soon come to the realization that Sikhism offers the answers for the average Kalyugi jeev as simplest, direct, and the most depth as possible. Sri Krishen had different standards to meet, as did Sri Raam, as did Sri Vasdev.

I don't have a "Sampardayaic" or "Singh Sabha" view. Just read Gurbani and Guru Sahib will deliver the message to you as you were meant to receive it and follow it through. If you see Sri Krishna as inferior to Guru Sahib, great. How that helps in your spiritual progress, who knows. If you see them all as equals, great - how that helps spiritual progress, who knows. My God, never mind if we found alien life that had religions - the comparitives of different faiths would become universal warfare! Your ten tentacled Guru is nothing compared to my two armed one??? The idea is for salvation, not an olympic event to see who's the greatest Guru of them all! "Jagat Janandha Rahh Lai, Apne Kirpa Dhaar. Jit Dwaraai Ubharai, Thitai Laho Ubhar." Let's all try for that goal, rather than comparing how my door is better than your door. If you door is truly superior, they will come towards it by themselves (Guru Kirpa Karan).

If Gurbani has proven one thing, it is that The Almighty is capable of anything. How do you know that there aren't thousands of Guru Nanaks and Guru Gobind Singhs in alternate worlds/dimensions? If thousands of Sri Krishnas can be made, why not Guru Sahib? Shall I quote when Guru Sahib said in the Shabad "In Hi Ki Kirpa Kae Sajae Hum Hai, Nahi Moseo Gareeb KAROOR Parae"? The Almighty can do ANYTHING - "Neech Ooch Karae Maera Gobind".

At some point, we have to stop trying to make ourselves look superior to the world and get on PRACTICING the faith. Doing that Simran, that Paath, that Keertan, that Seva, that Bhagti and becoming SIKHS. Forget who is superior and inferior - stop trying to prove it with words. The only way it will be "proven" - if you so desire it - is to practice it. Rest you can argue for pages and pages and get nowhere. Funny thing is that all talk about The "Sampardaya" vs. "Singh Sabha" view is that Babae from both groups did Kamai together and had love - and we do not reflect this at all despite being their "fans". Do Sangat of Gursikhs from all groups and you begin to realize one thing - they all say the SAME THING!!! Become Amritdhari, Keep Rehat, Do Simran/Paath/Keertan/Seva, love everyone and other "simple" things.

Gurbani is a slap in the face - pity that moorakhs like me become numb to the constant slapping.

ma 1 ||

Gala(n)aee Asee Cha(n)geeaa Aachaaree Bureeaah ||

Manahu Kusudhhaa Kaaleeaa Baahar Chittaveeaah ||

Reesaa Karih Thinaarreeaa Jo Saevehi Dhar Kharreeaah ||

Naal Khasamai Ratheeaa Maanehi Sukh Raleeaah ||

Hodhai Thaan Nithaaneeaa Rehehi Nimaananeeaah ||

Naanak Janam Sakaarathhaa Jae Thin Kai Sa(n)g Milaah ||2||

First Mehla:

We are good at talking, but our actions are bad.

Mentally, we are impure and black, but outwardly, we appear white.

We imitate those who stand and serve at the Lord's Door.

They are attuned to the Love of their Husband Lord, and they experience the pleasure of His Love.

They remain powerless, even while they have power; they remain humble and meek.

O Nanak, our lives become profitable if we associate with them. ||2||