West London Durga Pooja

[Cisco_Singh]

just to add...

ramgharia gurdwaras (and houses) proudly display huge pictures of baba vishwarkarma (the baba with the swan, tools, drills etc)- which has nothing to do with the sikh faith. they also place these pictures next to images that depict the personalities of our guru sahibs. I have also heard ramgharias mention baba vishwarkarma in aardas, the same aardas that is so sacred to sikhs.

its a common practice for ramgharia's to restrict seva of panj pyare to only turkhans. - this is foul beyond words.

in general, most turkhans are strictly forbidden from marrying chamars, jatts and people of any other casts... yet often they are allowed to marry hindu punjabis.

as a community they need to make a decision, they are either sikhs or hindus.

i can go on about their practices, but i reallly do not want to. ramgharia gurdwara's are in desperate need reforming....

ramgharia gurdwarae need to be educated on what sikhi is, and what sikhi is not!....

Which Ramgarhia Gurdwara have you seen pictures of Baba Vishkarma in, and which Gurdwaras have you heard the apparently modified ardaas in ?? I certainly have never seen or ever heard of any modified ardaas or Baba Vishkarma pictures in any Ramgarhia Gurdwaras...or seen any Baba Viskarma pictures in the houses of any Ramgarhia or Tharkaan families I know of...

It's not healthy to spread unfounded rumours which are probably untrue...If they are true then supply the evidence to support the claims and maybe some influential Sikh organisations can open dialogue with the relevant parties to see what they have to say...

Personally I think I whole lot of unfounded and untrue rumours are being circulated on this thread as a whole....Im more or less certain, that all these hindu related functions are limited to the function halls of certain Gurdwaras...and they are not advertised by the Gurdwara commitees themselves...They will have definitely hired the halls out to the relevant parties though.

[Paneer Monster]

There is a Ramgarhia Gurdwara not too far from me that occasionally I have gone to. I haven't seen any of the stuff Paneer monster talks of there.

One thing I am a bit suspicious of these days is covert attacks from between castes where one fingers another whilst doing little or nothing about casteism within itself. Some people want to cause conflict about caste for all the wrong reasons as they are perpetuating an intercaste feud not truly trying to eliminate casteism.

I saw this with a lot of claims about some Bhatra Gurdwaras doing x, y and z. Much of which just turned out to be straight chuggliaan.

Thank you for your contribution. If by 'some people' you are refering to me, these are my observations and my experiances and i am not going to pretend these issues do not exist. I find it interesting that you have not seen any of the things i have mentioned despite your claim that you have a ramgharia community close to your residence. If the Ramgharia Gurughar you know of does not engage in the practices i have listed, then i am truely and sincerly pleased.

If you have not seen any of the things i have written about, go to the main uk ramgharia gurdwara in southall... there are several other ramgharia gurdwarae i can list that has pictures of baba vishwarkarma (at minimal), if not in the darbar then where the langar is prepared or eaten. - 'some people' are just fooling themselves if they do not accept this fact.

a member: Southall youth has also pointed out that the comitee is exclusive to only those who are turkhan... i have also seen the application forms my self.... infact if this is being brought into question i can obtain one and upload it here. Would you like me to do this?

Honestly i can write an essay on the manmat that is associated with ramgharia gurdwarae. i am not trying to cause beef, plz believe that i am not... if i wanted to, i could easily - any person can.

Please note : I have been a member of sikhsangat for over 4 years. In these 4 years i have only mentioned ramgharia gurdwarae in two posts. I am not making efforts to cause conflicts within the sikh community. I have previously highlighted how badly some jatts have discriminated against chammars. i know these observations might sound harsh however the facts can not be denied if they are clearly visible within certain faith / culteral communities.

I believe it is unecessary to have 4 -10 gurdwarae in one area (coventry, southall, slough, etc) specifically to serve the needs of seperate 'sikh' communities... i believe we just need one gurdwara on soho road, one on southall broadway one on foleshill road... for all sikhs to utilize.to serve the spiritual and worldy needs of all humanity.

[dalsingh101]

Paneer monster.

Brother I wasn't talking of you specifically in my post, I was talking about general trends in the panth. I appreciate what you say. I very rarely go to that Ramgarhia Gurdwara but will keep an eye out whenever I ever go there again.

In anycase, I think the whole quom needs a reality check with the casteism stuff. I know what our people are like, once we we get attacked directly a few times, then the caste thing will stop mattering for a while. Where I live Gurdwaras can be split into caste basis as well. Some people are stupid enough to advertise it like Ramgarhias, others will be more discreet. Everyone talks about the Jatt Gurdwara, the Tarkhan Gurdwara, the Bhatra Gurdwara, the Chamaar etc. etc.

I think we should make it a point to go to all respectfully and start to build bridges between us.

I hope and pray, and am pretty sure, that caste within Sikhs will slowly disappear in subsequent generations if we truly work at it. I know my own families younger generation has a lot of 'mixed-caste' marriages. The caste battle is a tricky one and it is one with lots of guilty parties, some overt, some discreet.

In future we will get a community with less Panjabi society structure. I hope to be alive when this happens and see what effects it has on the panth.

All of us should try and make concerted effort to push for more progressive values amongst our people. If people believe that certain aspects of their preSikh heritage is valuable, bring it into the mainstream and lets push for those values to be manifest amongst all of us. Be this education, warriorship, technical skills, artistic ability, humility or whatever.

We need a new dialogue between us. We have to each individually fight the urge to fracture and live and embody the principle of unity. Especially in the UK, where it might go off with the rise in racism.

When we are strong and united, it puts off half of our vairees. When we squabble, we become vulnerable.

This is no new understanding, read this quote from Panth Prakash:

So the Khalsa Singhs pleaded with the Bandhayee Singhs,

It was improper for them to strife against each other

Incase they indulged in an internecine war amongst themselves

The Mughals would harm the entire community

Like two sparrows fighting each other who are devoured by a wily cat

Similarly, the Mughals would pounce upon us

Rattan Bhangu

Panth Prakash

A lot of mahapurshes are saying there are bad times ahead.

PS - Where I live there are at least 15/20 very busy mosques/Islamic centres within a 10 minute walking radius of my place. I don't mind lots of Gurdwaras, as long as they are packed and not the ghost town type, empty vulnerable ones.

[punjab5]

''A lot of mahapurshes are saying there are bad times ahead.''

So what are they doing and also telling you what to do to tackle the bad times ahead and do not say just sit tight and do 'namm japp'.

[dalsingh101]

So what are they doing and also telling you what to do to tackle the bad times ahead and do not say just sit tight and do 'namm japp'.

Well, getting closer to your faith in possible turbulent times is no small thing and can be a source of the deepest inspiration and support. You can see Muslims use it this way today. When our own ancestors faced the worst times the faith supported them to be victorious, so lets not knock naam japping. But you are right. Other things have to take place as well. What that is should be obvious to anyone with a few braincells.

Seeing as the most of the panth generally seems to have their heads up their nether regions with regard to anything outside of westernistic materialistic gain, whatever we do has to be down to family level mainly right now.

Use your own initiative and imagination. One long term thing we should seriously ponder (imho) is the formation of new Sikh majority areas with PROGRESSIVE SIKHS. Not the same old caste based backwards folks who make up the numbers these days. A new sort of positive insularity that allows us to grow and live in a stable environment. If things ever get funky, those 'stranded' minority Sikhs in certain areas are likely to be on the receiving end of hostile behaviour one way or another.

One thing being told to us is to work less hours and spend more time with the family strengthening them in their faith and preparing them for the future. This advice from Giani Thakur Singh nails it. What more do you need to hear?

One thing we don't want to do is jump into the laps of goray (or another one else for that matter), like certain fools have done with the EDL or BNP. Be in the position to tell everyone to sod off if needs be.

[West London Singh]

certainly have never seen or ever heard of any modified ardaas or Baba Vishkarma pictures in any Ramgarhia Gurdwaras...or seen any Baba Viskarma pictures in the houses of any Ramgarhia or Tharkaan families I know of...

I'm not the person you directed your question at but I can state that I've seen a picture of some 'baba vishkarma' in every single ramgharia house I've ever been to in my life. I find it very strange that you say you haven't. I'm not a betting man but if I was I would wager you're either lying or visually impaired.

[paman]

Letter from Shepherd's Bush Gurdwara about this really bad incident thats going on here. Hopefully this doesn't just get ignored due to Grays thing

slough durga puja letter.docx

[Cisco_Singh]

I'm not the person you directed your question at but I can state that I've seen a picture of some 'baba vishkarma' in every single ramgharia house I've ever been to in my life. I find it very strange that you say you haven't. I'm not a betting man but if I was I would wager you're either lying or visually impaired.

I 've never seen a Baba Vishkarma picture in ay Gudwara or household i've been to...infact I had to Google who Baba Vishkarma is ... If you see this sort of thing in any Gurdwara, take pictures and send them to some influential Sikh organisations or report to SGPC/Akal Takht or discuss it directly with the commitees...

Im not from London, dont know if things are different up there...but of any Ramgarhia Gurdwara i've been to in the Midlands (Coventry, Leamington, Birmingham, Leiecester) or up North Leeds i've never seen the Baba Vishkarma stuff you claim...any local in these areas can easily verify this...go the Gurdwaras in question and check for themselves.

Like I said anyone cam make claims, I dont see any evidence anywhere to backup any of these claims...I agree bu the way, it's not a good thing...it's nothing to do with Sikhi and such things have no place in Gurdwaras.

[West London Singh]

The message of mine you have up there in quotes Cisco is not my complete message. On its own it makes no sense. There were many other paragraphs that went with it. Unfortunately, one of the admins here.. *Deleted*

Admin Note: Dear WLS, when we delete/edit your post/reply that means it is not inline with forums rules. Stay on Topic rather than going into discussion of Jatt Vs. Tarkhan etc.. - V.Singh*

[SarabhaPanjab]

The Ramgharia Council Uk is heavily infiltrated by RSS/congressi types. Everyone tip-toes around this issue because they don't want to cause a caste rift.

When have you seen these guys lead the memorials for 1984 victims?

Here is their true colours, saluting the flag they most respect.

http://www.ramgarhiacounciluk.com/pevents.html