Any Sikh Women Out There?

[Sukhmanii]

It has always felt to me that Sikhi is for boys. I know that this is not true, but that's what I've grown up believing.

Firstly, it is perfectly normal for religious Sikh men to wear a dastaar. But when there's mention of a woman wearing a dastaar, everyone freaks out. I never knew when I was young that a woman must too wear a dastaar, as it was NEVER spoken of. Where I live, there are a minority of Sikhs, and certainly Sikhs who are amritdhari. But there is not one woman with a dastaar. At my Gurdwara, the auntiya scowl in disgust when they see a woman in a dastaar; my friend had one tied on her just for the day and she received horrible stares at the Gurdwara, people telling her women don't need to wear it and that she looks silly. Her parents are horrified at the concept of her becoming amritdhari, and I was there when the whole family was pointing out how extreme and radical it is for a woman to have one and how bad it looks on women.

My dad, also, feels that way. I think the majority of our community do. He is always going on about the fact that my amritdhari sibling will marry an amritdhari partner: "Oh, what's wrong with my life? I have a son who's going to marry a girl with a pagg" and he's generally against the whole amritdhari thing anyway.

Secondly, being a girl growing up in a Sikh family. My mum isn't amritdhari but encourages me to get into Sikhi, while my dad on the other hand has never mentioned it to me and only expects my brothers to get into it. It's like the girls are ignored when talking about Sikhi. On special events we'd go to my cousin's house and my uncles and dad would get drunk and start talking about Sikhi (ironic, I know) to the boys in the family, and completely ignore me and my girl cousin. We'd be sitting on the side smiling, while the boys were being lectured about how important Sikhi is and being told stories. I know my cousin didn't care, but I was always so spiritual and wanted to get into Sikhi more so much, but was discouraged because it was seen as unacceptable for women to be anything to do with Sikhi. I had so hoped that my uncles would turn to me and ask how my Sikhi is going, or encourage me. I would try to get into discussions with them about the things I'd read, try to mention something I know about Sikhi so they could acknowledge me as someone who wants to learn, but they always just ignored it.

In the Gurdwara, I'd never seen a man give langar. It's always been the woman's job, without question. I remember all the girls always had to leave the ardaas early to go get ready to serve food. There's nothing wrong with giving out langar, it's a good thing; but in our case, we did it because we're women and it's our "job" to give food and we must apparently prepare as much as possible for our married life. It has always been that women dress up nicely with loads of make up, in suits and jewellery to go to the Gurdwara and giggle as boys look at them. For years that's what my friends and i did. It disgusts me now. We were never expected to go to the Gurdwara to get into Sikhi, but just to show ourselves off to the auntiya and everyone else - eg. show how good we are at giving out food, how good we are at cooking, listening to our parents, it's always like a competition between people. I hate that the girls perpetuate the problem – I hate going to the Gurdwara and having every relatively young man stare at me as soon as they see me. Now, i only go to the Gurdwara for Sikhi reasons, and i don't dress up at all, yet i still get stared at like there's nothing more to me. The Gurdwara's not a dating agency or a place to look at girls/ boys like that, and women aren't pieces of meat. We deserve to be treated with equal respect, especially in the Gurdwara. I wish there were some beautiful Singhnis here for me to look up to.

Does any other woman feel this way? Has anyone else been discouraged from getting into Sikhi, or come to any road blocks in the journey? There must be other women because I know the majority of Sikhs around here think that women are only good for looking at, and shouldn't have any deeper spiritual opinions. I have always been quite spiritual but no one ever acknowledged it, and instead chose to ignore it because a "woman's place in life is to be a housewife."

[Menu Ke Patha]

In the Gurdwara, I'd never seen a man give langar. It's always been the woman's job, without question. I remember all the girls always had to leave the ardaas early to go get ready to serve food. There's nothing wrong with giving out langar, it's a good thing; but in our case, we did it because we're women and it's our "job" to give food and we must apparently prepare as much as possible for our married life. It has always been that women dress up nicely with loads of make up, in suits and jewellery to go to the Gurdwara and giggle as boys look at them. For years that's what my friends and i did. It disgusts me now. We were never expected to go to the Gurdwara to get into Sikhi, but just to show ourselves off to the auntiya and everyone else - eg. show how good we are at giving out food, how good we are at cooking, listening to our parents, it's always like a competition between people. I hate that the girls perpetuate the problem – I hate going to the Gurdwara and having every relatively young man stare at me as soon as they see me. Now, i only go to the Gurdwara for Sikhi reasons, and i don't dress up at all, yet i still get stared at like there's nothing more to me. The Gurdwara's not a dating agency or a place to look at girls/ boys like that, and women aren't pieces of meat. We deserve to be treated with equal respect, especially in the Gurdwara. I wish there were some beautiful Singhnis here for me to look up to.

Bhenjee, You have to be the Singhni, so people can look up to Jee....

Be the Inspriation for the next generation.... when their in similar circumstances, then it'll be you they look up to and think wow...

be strong in your sikhee, in you paath and simran.... leave the rest to Mahaaraaj Jeeo... he'll stick by you through thick and thin!!!

Vaahigurooo

[believer]

phenjee i recognise myself so much in your story.......big part of this issue is our culture..in our culture woman do the house chores and the man earns the money...

this is as well brought along in our gurudwaras, even though sikhi is saying the opposite thing and that is man and woman should be EQUAL.

there is nothing much to do to these people. Part of them are not well educated (not everyone)..just ignore the people and be true to God.

I get a lot of the feeling u mention..the discourage you are talking about.....woman always talking about they want a beautiful daughter in law..no facial hair etc.

even at home they picked on me because I had thick eyebrows....

at first this all bothered me, but now....Guruji is always with us....we dont need negativity around us....there will always be people to make it harder to go on the path of Waheguru....see this as making you stronger...

bhul chuk maaf

[VanHelsingh]

I think one of the great injustices of this world is the perception of women as the 'fairer' or 'weaker' sex. As soon as the Bible stated that Eve was created from Adam's rib instead of being created from the dust like Adam, I think this cemented perceptions on equality. Whether we believe in this creation story or not is beside the point - my argument is that even the so-called "leading religion" of the world has this idea of male superiority within the pages of its holy book. This Christian creation story gives the impression that God favours the male as he created Adam first - yet we know that Waheguru is not fallible to such human leanings. That can't have helped issues at all in my opinion.

Physically, one might argue women are weaker but intellectually, spiritually, etc., I firmly believe this is so very far from the truth. Its not just in our Sikh society that women are sometimes dismissed (which they shouldn't be, especially considering how our Gurus elevated woman to equal status) as almost secondary to men. You only have to look at the western world's portrayal of women as sexual objects or one-dimensional beings to see this.

A great illusion the western world has afforded women is that they are not inferior to men. However its the women that are expected to degrade themselves to catch the attention of men, by dressing provocatively (amongst other more subtle issues), etc., - how is that equality? Our own Punjabi or even the South Asian society has its own issues with women and their perceived duties and roles in the world.

You only have to look at the suffocating treatment of Muslim women at the hands of their males, to understand how desperate the situation is. The sad thing is these Muslim women are enablers, i.e. they actually give the men a free-pass to mistreat them this way, because somehow they see it as their duty to their faith to be subordinate to their men. Obviously not all of them are like that, but we've all heard of so many instances in their culture about their mistreatment of women. Obvioulsy we Sikhs have similar (albeit not exactly the same) issues too - but our issues are more down to the Punjabi/Asian culture. If we'd taken to heart what our Gurus preached and practiced, Sikhs would be exempt from such nonsense. Also I'm not criticising other faiths and cultures - I'm just giving examples to make a point.

Its difficult to change perceptions that have been in existence for thousands of years. I'm not saying there's no use in trying - I'm just stating that people the world over have an entrenched mind-set when it comes to these kind of equality issues. What the answer is I don't know.

But from a Sikhi point of view, the only course of action that one could take is create that link with Waheguru, and don't allow anyone to dictate what kind of relationship you should have with Sikhi. Have a Sikhi relationship with Waheguru, not a Sikhi-female or Sikhi-male relationship. Look at our Mai Bhago - now there was an extraordinary Sikh. I know she's a rare soul but you only have to look at how she wasn't rebuked by Guru Ji at the time. Not everyone can be a Mai Bhago but the example set by her is there for everyone to see and admire.

Obviously there are things that only women can do - like give birth to children, etc. Those duties shouldn't be neglected in the pursuit of equality. It would be foolish to claim otherwise. As for sociological roles of men and women in their homes and society in general, well that's a different debate. :lol:

[believer]

at sikhi camp a paji told us girls that we also should serve at langar time. In our gurdwara usually the boys serve pande, langer water ....so he said we girls can give langer at the woman side...well what happened, everyone was staring soooo weird at us...it felt very uncomfartable giving langer...so next sunday no girl stood up....paji tried to approach us again but we didnt wanted the feeling the sangat gave us a week earlier...I know paji is disappointed because he wanted that we girls could also do sewa not only make langer.. how should we girls stand up without such reactions...??

[whyhellothere]

at sikhi camp a paji told us girls that we also should serve at langar time. In our gurdwara usually the boys serve pande, langer water ....so he said we girls can give langer at the woman side...well what happened, everyone was staring soooo weird at us...it felt very uncomfartable giving langer...so next sunday no girl stood up....paji tried to approach us again but we didnt wanted the feeling the sangat gave us a week earlier...I know paji is disappointed because he wanted that we girls could also do sewa not only make langer.. how should we girls stand up without such reactions...??

It's just another way people have attempted to corrupt sikhi. What you can do is not care a single bit what the other people think, serve langar and continue naam simran, babaji will protect you and help you ignore the people who don't like it.

[Only five]

To say men do not enter the kitchen in the Gurdwara is just not true. Men are always making langar in the langar hall. They are washing the dishes, serving the langar. Taking out the trash bags. The only place where men have a minor presence is in making parshadaa.

One peson's, personal experience can't speak for every Gurdwara in this world. I have been to many Gurdwaras, here in Canada and in India. Both countries have men and woman doing seva in the langar hall and the kitchen.

All this stuff that women are not to participate in Sikhi is the view of the punjabi fanatics. It's the lack of Sikhi teachings and not accepting Sikhi teachings, that create this kind of behavior and thinking.

[Sukhmanii]

Bhenjee, You have to be the Singhni, so people can look up to Jee....

Be the Inspriation for the next generation.... when their in similar circumstances, then it'll be you they look up to and think wow...

be strong in your sikhee, in you paath and simran.... leave the rest to Mahaaraaj Jeeo... he'll stick by you through thick and thin!!!

Vaahigurooo

Thank you phenji!

phenjee i recognise myself so much in your story.......big part of this issue is our culture..in our culture woman do the house chores and the man earns the money...

this is as well brought along in our gurudwaras, even though sikhi is saying the opposite thing and that is man and woman should be EQUAL.

there is nothing much to do to these people. Part of them are not well educated (not everyone)..just ignore the people and be true to God.

I get a lot of the feeling u mention..the discourage you are talking about.....woman always talking about they want a beautiful daughter in law..no facial hair etc.

even at home they picked on me because I had thick eyebrows....

at first this all bothered me, but now....Guruji is always with us....we dont need negativity around us....there will always be people to make it harder to go on the path of Waheguru....see this as making you stronger...

bhul chuk maaf

Yes, that's very true! Exactly, families always seem to be wanting the daughter to be beautiful and hairless, and also not to drink and be a good cook etc etc. They adopt certain ideals that are nothing to do with Sikhi. I've also been picked on for hair, i used to have a lot of facial hair and my cousins and their parents would constantly be saying nasty things about me! I'm glad you don't let it bother you anymore, i'm sure you're beautiful the way you are - mostly people just say nasty things because they're in some way jealous.

I think one of the great injustices of this world is the perception of women as the 'fairer' or 'weaker' sex. As soon as the Bible stated that Eve was created from Adam's rib instead of being created from the dust like Adam, I think this cemented perceptions on equality. Whether we believe in this creation story or not is beside the point - my argument is that even the so-called "leading religion" of the world has this idea of male superiority within the pages of its holy book. This Christian creation story gives the impression that God favours the male as he created Adam first - yet we know that Waheguru is not fallible to such human leanings. That can't have helped issues at all in my opinion.

Physically, one might argue women are weaker but intellectually, spiritually, etc., I firmly believe this is so very far from the truth. Its not just in our Sikh society that women are sometimes dismissed (which they shouldn't be, especially considering how our Gurus elevated woman to equal status) as almost secondary to men. You only have to look at the western world's portrayal of women as sexual objects or one-dimensional beings to see this.

A great illusion the western world has afforded women is that they are not inferior to men. However its the women that are expected to degrade themselves to catch the attention of men, by dressing provocatively (amongst other more subtle issues), etc., - how is that equality? Our own Punjabi or even the South Asian society has its own issues with women and their perceived duties and roles in the world.

You only have to look at the suffocating treatment of Muslim women at the hands of their males, to understand how desperate the situation is. The sad thing is these Muslim women are enablers, i.e. they actually give the men a free-pass to mistreat them this way, because somehow they see it as their duty to their faith to be subordinate to their men. Obviously not all of them are like that, but we've all heard of so many instances in their culture about their mistreatment of women. Obvioulsy we Sikhs have similar (albeit not exactly the same) issues too - but our issues are more down to the Punjabi/Asian culture. If we'd taken to heart what our Gurus preached and practiced, Sikhs would be exempt from such nonsense. Also I'm not criticising other faiths and cultures - I'm just giving examples to make a point.

Its difficult to change perceptions that have been in existence for thousands of years. I'm not saying there's no use in trying - I'm just stating that people the world over have an entrenched mind-set when it comes to these kind of equality issues. What the answer is I don't know.

But from a Sikhi point of view, the only course of action that one could take is create that link with Waheguru, and don't allow anyone to dictate what kind of relationship you should have with Sikhi. Have a Sikhi relationship with Waheguru, not a Sikhi-female or Sikhi-male relationship. Look at our Mai Bhago - now there was an extraordinary Sikh. I know she's a rare soul but you only have to look at how she wasn't rebuked by Guru Ji at the time. Not everyone can be a Mai Bhago but the example set by her is there for everyone to see and admire.

Obviously there are things that only women can do - like give birth to children, etc. Those duties shouldn't be neglected in the pursuit of equality. It would be foolish to claim otherwise. As for sociological roles of men and women in their homes and society in general, well that's a different debate. :lol:

I pretty much agree with everything you said. I think our culture is grounded by partriarchy, and i seem to be one of the few women i know who don't want to accept being treated differently to men. Sikhi preaches equality but (some) Sikhs adopt the sexist Punjabi culture and call it Sikhi.

To say men do not enter the kitchen in the Gurdwara is just not true. Men are always making langar in the langar hall. They are washing the dishes, serving the langar. Taking out the trash bags. The only place where men have a minor presence is in making parshadaa.

One peson's, personal experience can't speak for every Gurdwara in this world. I have been to many Gurdwaras, here in Canada and in India. Both countries have men and woman doing seva in the langar hall and the kitchen.

All this stuff that women are not to participate in Sikhi is the view of the punjabi fanatics. It's the lack of Sikhi teachings and not accepting Sikhi teachings, that create this kind of behavior and thinking.

Where did i say that men don't enter the kitchen at the Gurdwara? I didn't. I did not generalise my own experience and say that this must happen everywhere else too. I never said that men don't give langar, i was speaking about my OWN experiences and saying that at MY Gurdwara i've never seen a man giving langar. And that's completely true. I'm sure that in other Gurdwaras men feel comfortable doing seva, i just said that in my local one i have never seen a man giving langar.

I do agree with you that the sexist view is down to Punjabi fanatics and the lack of Sikhi teachings, though.

[Only five]

Where did i say that men don't enter the kitchen at the Gurdwara? I didn't. I did not generalise my own experience and say that this must happen everywhere else too. I never said that men don't give langar, i was speaking about my OWN experiences and saying that at MY Gurdwara i've never seen a man giving langar. And that's completely true. I'm sure that in other Gurdwaras men feel comfortable doing seva, i just said that in my local one i have never seen a man giving langar.

Did I accuse you of generalizing? I was speaking of my personal experiences and said that if someone says no men enter the kitchen of the Gurdwara, are not telling the truth. But no where did I accuse you of anything. If I did, then your post would have been quoted. If someone names a specific Gurdwara and says this Gurdwara does not have men helping out then that would be fine as long as it's true.

do agree with you that the sexist view is down to Punjabi fanatics and the lack of Sikhi teachings, though.

Yup, if people walk in a Gurmat household. The men of the family help out around the house and go do a nine to five and/or run businesses.