Taking Over Gurudawara By Ravidasia

[dalsingh101]

What happened to this noble dream my brothers and sisters? This is how I've always imagined our Khalistan should be like since I was a child, share this vision with me:

ਬੇਗਮ ਪੁਰਾ ਸਹਰ ਕੋ ਨਾਉ ॥

Baygumpura, 'the city without sorrow', is the name of the town.

ਦੂਖੁ ਅੰਦੋਹੁ ਨਹੀ ਤਿਹਿ ਠਾਉ ॥

There is no suffering or anxiety there.

ਨਾਂ ਤਸਵੀਸ ਖਿਰਾਜੁ ਨ ਮਾਲੁ ॥

There are no troubles or taxes on commodities there.

ਖਉਫੁ ਨ ਖਤਾ ਨ ਤਰਸੁ ਜਵਾਲੁ ॥੧॥

There is no fear, blemish or downfall there. ||1||

ਅਬ ਮੋਹਿ ਖੂਬ ਵਤਨ ਗਹ ਪਾਈ ॥

Now, I have found this most excellent city.

ਊਹਾਂ ਖੈਰਿ ਸਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

There is lasting peace and safety there, O Siblings of Destiny. ||1||Pause||

ਕਾਇਮੁ ਦਾਇਮੁ ਸਦਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੀ ॥

God's Kingdom is steady, stable and eternal.

ਦੋਮ ਨ ਸੇਮ ਏਕ ਸੋ ਆਹੀ ॥

There is no second or third status; all are equal there.

ਆਬਾਦਾਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਮਸਹੂਰ ॥

That city is populous and eternally famous.

ਊਹਾਂ ਗਨੀ ਬਸਹਿ ਮਾਮੂਰ ॥੨॥

Those who live there are wealthy and contented. ||2||

ਤਿਉ ਤਿਉ ਸੈਲ ਕਰਹਿ ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ॥

They stroll about freely, just as they please.

ਮਹਰਮ ਮਹਲ ਨ ਕੋ ਅਟਕਾਵੈ ॥

They know the Mansion of the Lord's Presence, and no one blocks their way.

ਕਹਿ ਰਵਿਦਾਸ ਖਲਾਸ ਚਮਾਰਾ ॥

Says Ravi Daas, the emancipated shoe-maker:

ਜੋ ਹਮ ਸਹਰੀ ਸੁ ਮੀਤੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥੩॥੨॥

whoever is a citizen there, is a friend of mine. ||3||2||

GGS, p345

[Only five]

The Nishan Sahib being removed here has more to it, than what some forum members are saying. Again I'll stress the point that Brahmins have suppressed the Chamars for centuries and centuries, but do you see Mandirs being attacked? Where is the outrage from the Chamar community directed at the Brahmins that created the caste system? Jumping to conclusion and blaming the Jatts, which has been happening alot on this forum now by a few, is a clear cut show of their hatred toward the jatts.

I'm not saying jatts have not attacked the chamars, there is a video of the jatts doing it, but this whole event does not add up to blame one caste. Too much propganda being spread here.

[dalsingh101]

You know what, whatever Bahmans do with other people, doesn't really justify what goes on from our quarter now does it? If anything our lot are worse, and I say that because we hypocritically preach equality on the one hand and then frequently do the opposite in actual practice. Bahman's are actually following their belief/religion when they act like oppressors (not that this justifies this), whereas those from the Sikh side have absolutely no excuse (and yes Jatts and Chamars have a long standing negative dynamic going on that probably predates the revelation of Sikhi).

Anyway, I've said enough on this thread. As I mentioned earlier we've reached an impasse where one side thinks that we have some hand in the situation that has arisen, whilst the other denies this. Go listen to the Chamars that are complaining about all this (like in the video) they are specifically complaining about Jats, not other people. It's a bitter pill to swallow, but there is no need to hide from this. What kills me is that all of this doesn't lead to some comments along the lines of "Yes, we need change, this isn't right". Instead we have patent denials.

In the end, we empower ourselves when we learn from past mistakes and there is no shame in critical reflection which leads to an improvement of standards and humanity in our society. When people fail to do this, they just condemn the community to even more petty backwardness that's never going to lead anywhere positive.

Anyway, if we carry on, it'll just lead to a pantomime style "Oh no it isn't! Oh yes it is!" scenario. Lets save ourselves the indignity.

[Only five]

Some are not understanding my point. The Brahmins have suppressed the chamars for centuries, but why havent the chamars attacked the Brahmins? The Brahmin religion was established way before Sikhi and before that the jatts were suppressed themselves by the brahmins. The jatts only got some honor when Satguru ji gave them the equal right to the Brahmins. The Jatts protected the chamars for the Brahmins after Satguru ji left his worldly form. Mahraja Ranjit Singh under his raj gave equality rights in practice and we had great Sikh warriors that implemented this order from Satguru ji. So things don't add up to jump on the jatts. Let's wait for more information on this.

[dalsingh101]

The Jatts protected the chamars for the Brahmins after Satguru ji left his worldly form.

Do you mean the Jatts protected the Chamars from Bahmans?

I wouldn't go that far myself. I believe that Chamars had been inspired enough by Sikhi/dasmesh pita to be able to defend themselves in the period immediately after the revelation of the Khalsa. There is contemporary Persian references of them fighting under Banda Singh.

Later on, the panth seems to have got bogged down by casteists who change the egalitarian dynamics of the community. People went back to insular, self serving clannishness. And we still suffer from this now.

[Only five]

Do you mean the Jatts protected the Chamars from Bahmans?

No

I wouldn't go that far myself. I believe that Chamars had been inspired enough by Sikhi/dasmesh pita to be able to defend themselves in the period immediately after the revelation of the Khalsa. There is contemporary Persian references of them fighting under Banda Singh.

Great they fought along side with the jatts. This shows unity between jatt and chamars.

Later on, the panth seems to have got bogged down by casteists who change the egalitarian dynamics of the community. People went back to insular, self serving clannishness. And we still suffer from this now.

In the later periods there were wars aswell. It'll be interesting to see if chamars were fighting along side the others as well. Wrapping this period up in a nutshell does not protray the people of that time in the light they served humanity. It's an insult to them.

Also how many chamars fought in and around 1984? If someone can bring these stats up that would be very help to

[dalsingh101]

Great they fought along side with the jatts. This shows unity between jatt and chamars.

Yeah but look at what happened by the time the land was being divided out. They were totally bumped out of the equation.

We just don't have enough records to shine proper light on it. So far we have evidence that they were involved in all the post Khalsa battles then somehow by the time Mahrajah Ranjit Singh's raj came about, they were detested again and had not secured a portion of land like others had? People try to make an excuse that most of them were in the shaheediyan misl and this is why, but that is patently a behuna because plenty of them survived - they weren't all shaheed.

In the later periods there were wars aswell. It'll be interesting to see if chamars were fighting along side the others as well. Wrapping this period up in a nutshell does not protray the people of that time in the light they served humanity. It's an insult to them.

Well, they were even represented as far as when the British first formed battalions all the way to at least WW1.

And don't be telling me about insulting them. The people insulting them are the ones who oppress them and try to hide their legitimate grievances.

[Only five]

Yeah but look at what happened by the time the land was being divided out. They were totally bumped out of the equation.

How were they bumped out and who took them out?

We just don't have enough records to shine proper light on it. So far we have evidence that they were involved in all the post Khalsa battles then somehow by the time Mahrajah Ranjit Singh's raj came about, they were detested again and had not secured a portion of land like others had?

Mahraja Ranjit Singh would surely not let a group of people who served in his forces go without land. They must have had land before as well.

People try to make an excuse that most of them were in the shaheediyan misl and this is why, but that is patently a behuna because plenty of them survived - they weren't all shaheed.

How do you know it's an excuse?

Well, they were even represented as far as when the British first formed battalions all the way to at least WW1.

So Jatts and Chamars fought along side each other then as well.

And don't be telling me about insulting them. The people insulting them are the ones who oppress them and try to hide their legitimate grievances.

When you say later on the panth........ then it is an insult to the Sikhs that stuck up for equality of all. There are all ways bad people in both sides; jatts and chamars, but to label the whole panth in a nutshell like that is an insult. I raised a question on Nishan Sahib being taken down and you call it oppression. Your jumping to conclusion without any evidence to say the jatts were directly the cause of the Nishan Sahib being removed.

Like i said before, lets wait for more information to be revealed, but your jumping on the jatts.

[.- Prabhjot Singh -.]

Singho please Lets just get back to the topic?

[Only five]

Singho please Lets just get back to the topic?

I agree, we need more info on this occurance to take all these no evidence to back up theories away.