Why?

[Only five 1,125]

Lol drink from my feet?? Hell no, only if you knew what my socks smelt like

Alias its a common assertion that Guru Shaibs gave charran Pual, but this is false, subsequently its due to this belief that fake sants sadhs and gurus get away with having there congregation do charran pual. But even if these Sadhs didnt, it wouldn’t make it not true per say that Gurus didnt do this. That’s not my argument.

What makes you think Charan di Pahul is false? Any historical doc you got to say this?

The argument for of idol worship of the Humans body or any Form made from 5 elements is forbidden.

Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj calls shastar his Pir (saints) Shastar di Puja takes places. Also Satguru says Khalsa is my pure form.

I'll explain why

Bhagat Trilochan Ji says this Body is Maya and any attachment with it is a false activity and will cause you to take rebirth.

This body can be made into maya and it can be made into Khalsa, like Satguru says.

That includes the body of the Gurus, as they gave no extra reverence to their body which was made from 5 elements, why? Because these elements are Nass Waan (ending/not forever)

Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj body was not found after Maharaj departed this earth. Also Sikhs bowed to Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj. He could have very easily told the Sikhs to bow to Shabad Guru, by writing down Sri Mool Mantar, but Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj was bowed too and his body was held in reverence.

Guru Gobind went as far as saying that anyone calling me God would go to Hell

jae ham ko paramaesar ouchar hai | thae sabh narak kundd mehi par hai |

mo ka dhaas thavan kaa jaano | yaa mai bhaedh n ranch pashaano | 32 |

Translation:- "Those who call me God, will fall into the pit of hell.

Regard me as a humble servant of the Lord and have no doubt about it."

You bettter check those translations because Satguru Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji Maharaj says he is the Lord, as the Lord took the fifth form This is written in Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj.

[simran345 2,538]

Some are not understanding where Mat Pul Rai is coming from. This is the problem we have on internet, as its difficult to explain so something in sentences as one would like, thus leading to different interpretations.

One has to read between the lines in order to understand what is being, although it may look like something else. I understand what is being said.

When mat pul rai says idol worshipping he does not mean the Shastars. Its not rocket science, he means humans. Instead of going into deep explanations and making Sikhi sound complicated, its simple that we should not worship people.

Thus the trend of fake people who call them sants. There are sants and mahapursh. But he is not denying that, he is simply saying the fake ones that exist. Why the on earth would anybody want to drink their feets dirty water when they can take amrit or may have taken amrit. What is there higher than taking amrit?

Therefore sants, mahapursh are here to help and guide us and give them the respect for that, but they are not god, even they say that and always guide one to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, whom are our Maharaj ji, the real ones from whom we should be getting our blessings from. This is why Guru Gobind Singh ji left us with Maharaj ji and not a human to bow down to, so we dont get misled and that we worship Waheguru, and work towards taking amrit.

Well that's my thinking anyways.

[VanHelsingh 1,985]

When our Gurus referred to idolatry in terms of the worship of inert stones, I wonder if they were also referencing the issue on a deeper level, i.e. the worship of Man? We see in this modern world how people fall over themselves to worship individuals, i.e. either "religious" figures or entertainers such as actors, singers, etc. We only have to look at India to see the kind of mad devotion that someone like A. Bachchan inspires in people. Away from India, the western world is obsessed with celebrity and a need to place people on pedestals and elevate them to undeserved heights.

In terms of our community and our faith, we can see how, for example, our elders have given encouragement to various babeh and "Gurus" over the years. Not content to view someone as a simple holy man with a spiritual outlook and leave it at that, these fanatical followers begin to believe their particular baba is God. If we were a bit more discerning or even suspicious of anyone who claimed to have a connection to God, we wouldn't be in half the mess we're currently mired in. But anyway a bit OT.

[Mat Pulo Rai 32]

Some are not understanding where Mat Pul Rai is coming from. This is the problem we have on internet, as its difficult to explain so something in sentences as one would like, thus leading to different interpretations.

One has to read between the lines in order to understand what is being, although it may look like something else. I understand what is being said.

When mat pul rai says idol worshipping he does not mean the Shastars. Its not rocket science, he means humans. Instead of going into deep explanations and making Sikhi sound complicated, its simple that we should not worship people.

Thus the trend of fake people who call them sants. There are sants and mahapursh. But he is not denying that, he is simply saying the fake ones that exist. Why the on earth would anybody want to drink their feets dirty water when they can take amrit or may have taken amrit. What is there higher than taking amrit?

Therefore sants, mahapursh are here to help and guide us and give them the respect for that, but they are not god, even they say that and always guide one to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji, whom are our Maharaj ji, the real ones from whom we should be getting our blessings from. This is why Guru Gobind Singh ji left us with Maharaj ji and not a human to bow down to, so we dont get misled and that we worship Waheguru, and work towards taking amrit.

Well that's my thinking anyways.

This is exactly what i mean

When our Gurus referred to idolatry in terms of the worship of inert stones, I wonder if they were also referencing the issue on a deeper level, i.e. the worship of Man? We see in this modern world how people fall over themselves to worship individuals, i.e. either "religious" figures or entertainers such as actors, singers, etc. We only have to look at India to see the kind of mad devotion that someone like A. Bachchan inspires in people. Away from India, the western world is obsessed with celebrity and a need to place people on pedestals and elevate them to undeserved heights.

In terms of our community and our faith, we can see how, for example, our elders have given encouragement to various babeh and "Gurus" over the years. Not content to view someone as a simple holy man with a spiritual outlook and leave it at that, these fanatical followers begin to believe their particular baba is God. If we were a bit more discerning or even suspicious of anyone who claimed to have a connection to God, we wouldn't be in half the mess we're currently mired in. But anyway a bit OT.

Thats true, But Guru Shaibs have said there are Balahaar to anyone who has Met God, and are worthy of worship/seva, called sant ke seva but that Sant, Mahapurkh would never allow his/her worship to be done, much like Sant Kartar Singh walked out of the Gurdwara, when they started doing Jakaras when he walked in, when he was asked why did you walk out, he replied No man should be praised in the court of the Lord. So we should be wary of anyone who allows them selves to be bowed down to.

[VanHelsingh 1,985]

Thats true, But Guru Shaibs have said there are Balahaar to anyone who has Met God, and are worthy of worship/seva, called sant ke seva but that Sant, Mahapurkh would never allow his/her worship to be done, much like Sant Kartar Singh walked out of the Gurdwara, when they started doing Jakaras when he walked in, when he was asked why did you walk out, he replied No man should be praised in the court of the Lord. So we should be wary of anyone who allows them selves to be bowed down to.

Wow, if only all sants and holy men followed the example of Sant Kartar Singh.

[Only five 1,125]

When mat pul rai says idol worshipping he does not mean the Shastars. Its not rocket science, he means humans. Instead of going into deep explanations and making Sikhi sound complicated, its simple that we should not worship people.

This is what he said:

The argument for of idol worship of the Humans body or any Form made from 5 elements is forbidden.

The premises need to come to the conclusion. On many untrue premises he tried to make a conclusion. Especially denying Charan di pahul. You might not see this as rocket science, but others do. People like to be selective when making arguments....ignoring the info that dissolves their views.

If someone wants to say don't worship fake Sant's then you can do this by having supporting premises that come to this conclusion. In Sikhi the premises and the outcome are important, but the premise's are more important than the outcome.

[simran345 2,538]

@Mat Pulo Rai, when u say five elements what do you mean? Do you mean fire, air, ether, earth and water? Or five evils? or something else?

[akhandeurope 2]

This is blatent ninda to say Guru ji didn't give charan pahul. It doesn't need to be mentioned in gurbani, because gurbani is mainly focused on internal and uniting jeev with akal.

You've obviously been brainwashed, I figured out which group and person you follow, and you confirmed this by PM. I think it's only fair that I leave it upto you if you wish to share this with the rest of cyber sangat. Look at akj and other sampradas, so many differences, but they all - these jathas, taksaals, smarada ALL believe guru sahib gave charan pahul, only one easily brainwashed would believe otherwise if told by a new "sant" or "gurmukh" or whatever. I sent you a couple of long pms talking in detail about certain avasthas, one example was unhad shabad. I showed you how sounds like bells and drums etc are yogmat anhad shabads and nothing to do with gurmat. You had no answer for this because your group believes these to be real anhad shabads. I still had respect for your group because you spend time doing naam simran, but distorting history such as this, that's unacceptable!

Next you'll say khanda bate di amrit was created after guru gobind singh ji. To get FULL udhaar and reach top most avastha, one has to become sikh of guru sahib through amrit. Read first ang of guru granth sahib and you’ll see “gurprasad” only with guru’s grace does one fully realise waheguru. In Guru Nanak's (and following guru sahibaan) time charan pahul was given, then guru sahib would place their hand on head (this shows if it’s ok for guru sahib to place hand on head then it’s also ok for guru roop punj pyare to do the same, but that’s a different topic), some gursikhs instantly became brahmgyani! others had to do their own kmayee, it was upto guru sahib how much kirpa he did during amrit shakuona. Guru Gobind Singh just changed the marada, because gurugadi next was going to larivaar saroop Guru Granth Sahib ji.

This is a childish argument about not worshipping punj tat, whatever that thing where Satguru’s jot resides that becomes pure amrit and worthy of bowing down to, whether it was in body form or now in granth form. Guru sahib would dip his toe in bowl of water, and that was enough to turn water into amrit. Then guru sahib would do drirta of naam by however much kirpaa he wanted to do. Some would get to stage of automatic simran, while some would reach top most avastha straightaway.

Now about charan in gurbani, I "suggest" you read "charan kamal ji mauj" by Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh, even though I know you wont. So I'll explain a little here. Having darshan of charan means 1st proper darshan of waheguru. Gursikhs should know that waheguru is beyond punj tat (so no phyiscal feet), so having darshan of god's feet is a magnificent prakaash. Reaching this avastha means you have chance of meeting waheguru fully. When guru sahib does kirpa and allows gursikh to see charans of waheguru then anand at that time becomes unbearable. The prakash is this bright:

ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਤ ਕੋਟਿ ਸੂਰ ਉਜਾਰਾ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਭਰਮੁ ਅੰਧੇਰਾ ॥੧॥

Chanting the Naam, the Name of the Lord, the light of millions of suns shines forth, and the darkness of doubt is dispelled. ||1||

In sikh deras, which do not follow gumart, you cannot see praakaash of this magnitude, normally prakaash in deras is more dull and nowhere near as bright.

About SEEING charan:

ਚਰਨ ਪਿਆਸੀ ਦਰਸ ਬੈਰਾਗਨਿ ਪੇਖਉ ਥਾਨ ਸਬਾਏ ॥

I thirst for His Feet, and I long for the Blessed Vision of His Darshan; I look for Him everywhere.

Guru Sahib describing the beauty of charan kamal in sukhmani sahib:

ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਅਨੂਪ ॥

His Lotus Feet are incomparably beautiful.

When gurbani talks about washing charan and drinking in them, practically this means after jot vigaas has happened and you can see prakash of akal purkahs/guru’s charan within, then washing the feet is doing swaas swaas simran and drinking the amrit while the anand keeps on increasing.

Also remember many times saadh, sant in gurbani refers to guru sahib.

[Mat Pulo Rai 32]

@Mat Pulo Rai, when u say five elements what do you mean? Do you mean fire, air, ether, earth and water? Or five evils? or something else?

All the universe is made from the 5 elements, so everything.

The Mool of Maya is Such and the Mool of the 5 elements is Maya. So everything you can see is Maya, Guru is above Maya and cannot be reached by Kaal/Maya, this is called Joth/Unhadh

Remember Guru Shiabs Joth traveled from one body to another, and that same Jooth is with in Sat Guru now, hence we give sat kaar to the form that Guru has taken, but not in idol worshipped.

I think people are misinterpreting me, Of cource you belive Guru Granth Shaib is your Sat Guru, as the Light (Joth) of Vaheguru is within the Bani, but if people believe that Guru Shaibs told us to idol worship them in physical form, your wrong, the love for Vaheguru is of the Mun and Vaheguru, the body has no relevance apart from being a vessel, guru shaibs is saying detach from Maya and come back to your true home which is above Maya. Cant be any clearer than this.

[simran345 2,538]

okay this is confusing now, so im going to just carry on doing what my mann thinks is right. everybody seems to have different thinking. And just hope waheguru leads me the right way, without listening to anybody.

[Mat Pulo Rai 32]

This is blatent ninda to say Guru ji didn't give charan pahul. It doesn't need to be mentioned in gurbani, because gurbani is mainly focused on internal and uniting jeev with akal.

You've obviously been brainwashed, I figured out which group and person you follow, and you confirmed this by PM. I think it's only fair that I leave it upto you if you wish to share this with the rest of cyber sangat. Look at akj and other sampradas, so many differences, but they all - these jathas, taksaals, smarada ALL believe guru sahib gave charan pahul, only one easily brainwashed would believe otherwise if told by a new "sant" or "gurmukh" or whatever. I sent you a couple of long pms talking in detail about certain avasthas, one example was unhad shabad. I showed you how sounds like bells and drums etc are yogmat anhad shabads and nothing to do with gurmat. You had no answer for this because your group believes these to be real anhad shabads. I still had respect for your group because you spend time doing naam simran, but distorting history such as this, that's unacceptable!

Next you'll say khanda bate di amrit was created after guru gobind singh ji. To get FULL udhaar and reach top most avastha, one has to become sikh of guru sahib through amrit. Read first ang of guru granth sahib and you’ll see “gurprasad” only with guru’s grace does one fully realise waheguru. In Guru Nanak's (and following guru sahibaan) time charan pahul was given, then guru sahib would place their hand on head (this shows if it’s ok for guru sahib to place hand on head then it’s also ok for guru roop punj pyare to do the same, but that’s a different topic), some gursikhs instantly became brahmgyani! others had to do their own kmayee, it was upto guru sahib how much kirpa he did during amrit shakuona. Guru Gobind Singh just changed the marada, because gurugadi next was going to larivaar saroop Guru Granth Sahib ji.

This is a childish argument about not worshipping punj tat, whatever that thing where Satguru’s jot resides that becomes pure amrit and worthy of bowing down to, whether it was in body form or now in granth form. Guru sahib would dip his toe in bowl of water, and that was enough to turn water into amrit. Then guru sahib would do drirta of naam by however much kirpaa he wanted to do. Some would get to stage of automatic simran, while some would reach top most avastha straightaway.

Now about charan in gurbani, I "suggest" you read "charan kamal ji mauj" by Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh, even though I know you wont. So I'll explain a little here. Having darshan of charan means 1st proper darshan of waheguru. Gursikhs should know that waheguru is beyond punj tat (so no phyiscal feet), so having darshan of god's feet is a magnificent prakaash. Reaching this avastha means you have chance of meeting waheguru fully. When guru sahib does kirpa and allows gursikh to see charans of waheguru then anand at that time becomes unbearable. The prakash is this bright:

ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਤ ਕੋਟਿ ਸੂਰ ਉਜਾਰਾ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਭਰਮੁ ਅੰਧੇਰਾ ॥੧॥

Chanting the Naam, the Name of the Lord, the light of millions of suns shines forth, and the darkness of doubt is dispelled. ||1||

In sikh deras, which do not follow gumart, you cannot see praakaash of this magnitude, normally prakaash in deras is more dull and nowhere near as bright.

About SEEING charan:

ਚਰਨ ਪਿਆਸੀ ਦਰਸ ਬੈਰਾਗਨਿ ਪੇਖਉ ਥਾਨ ਸਬਾਏ ॥

I thirst for His Feet, and I long for the Blessed Vision of His Darshan; I look for Him everywhere.

Guru Sahib describing the beauty of charan kamal in sukhmani sahib:

ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਅਨੂਪ ॥

His Lotus Feet are incomparably beautiful.

When gurbani talks about washing charan and drinking in them, practically this means after jot vigaas has happened and you can see prakash of akal purkahs/guru’s charan within, then washing the feet is doing swaas swaas simran and drinking the amrit while the anand keeps on increasing.

Also remember many times saadh, sant in gurbani refers to guru sahib.

This will just come down this group believes this other group believe this.. Kinda a idiotic argument, theres alot of disagrements in between groups to what they believe is true, like Sant Jarnail singh has said Raag Mala is bani but Bhai Randeer singh from what I've learnt has said its not, this is one of many. its a shame im not on a higher level so could tell you from experience, but i can talk about where I am, and not above.

But my post has explained how guru shiabs gave amrit its through shabad, and How guru jee says that 5 piaaria make water in to amrit is written within Sukhmani shiabs, its through dristi (there eyes/vision)

[MokhamSingh 990]

Hi,

Just want a bit of help/advice. I feel that every time I go to the Gurdwara or start to do paath etc something bad always happens within the next few days.

It deters me from praying or visiting the Gurdwara. Seems like a catch 22 situation. Why is this happening?

What we think of as bad maybe Waheguru's way of eradicating our misfortunes:

ਅਪੁਸਟ ਬਾਤ ਤੇ ਭਈ ਸੀਧਰੀ ਦੂਤ ਦੁਸਟ ਸਜਨਈ ॥

Apusat bāṯ ṯe bẖa▫ī sīḏẖrī ḏūṯ ḏusat sajna▫ī.

That which was upside-down has been set upright; the deadly enemies and adversaries have become friends.

[akhandeurope 2]

Mut pulo rai, that's the point I'm trying to make that even though there are all these differences still all apart from you and your particular sangat believe guru sahib gave charan amrit.

Amrit through shabad? this is inner avastha, why don't some realise that there is outer sikhi and inner sikhi, both are required. By the way to get shabad one first has to become a sikh of the saadhguru, through initiation. There is physical amrit to drink which enters you into sikhi, there's also inner amrit. There is also amrit pervading everywhere. Who knows how many levels and countless gifts there there, only guru sahib does.

Regarding dristhee there are various avasthas for the eyes, and you can interpret the tuks anyway you want. Eyes get darshan, one gets dib dristhee, eyes fill up with amrit etc

Its true the more kmayee punj pyare have the more "kala" on amrit through their eyes, but the amrit is truly made by the 5 amrit baniyaa, this is the main ingredient. The kmayee of punj pyare just depend on your karma.

[Only five 1,125]

okay this is confusing now, so im going to just carry on doing what my mann thinks is right. everybody seems to have different thinking. And just hope waheguru leads me the right way, without listening to anybody.

Bhenji, it's best to listen to Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars. Bhai Gurdas ji clears up a lot of misconceptions some Sikhs put in others. Satguru gave the key of Gurbani to Bhai Gurdas ji vaars. If today Sri Vaheguru ji Maharaj comes down into a form......like it did as Narsingh......then i would bow to Maharaj. The 5 elements are pure. Maharaj never makes anything unpure. Many people have made them into maya.

Here is another way to understand it. We know Maharaj told us not to worship stone idols. But Gurbani tells us all of creation is the image of Sri Vaheguru ji Maharaj. One question that comes up after hearing these two lines is. Stone are part of creation so why can't we worship them as image? These two lines sound like they contradict each other, but they don't. When Maharaj is saying all of creation is the image of the Sri Vaheguru ji Maharaj, then that means i see Maharaj everywhere and in everything. So if Maharaj is everywhere, then which direction do i bow and to which object don't i bow too? When we reach a very high jeevan then Maharaj does kirpa and we start seeing Maharaj everywhere and that means even in small little creations...insects, worms, etc. Many bow to stone idols because they think its the form of Maharaj and Bhagat Namdev ji Maharaj responds to this by saying why are you bowing to one stone idol and the other stones (so called form of Maharaj) are being kicked around by you? Bhagat Namdev ji Maharaj is saying both equally have Maharaj inside but they are not the true form of Maharaj, so don't worship it. Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj tells us that Guru is the True Form and we bow to Guru and worship Guru. So when it came to Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj, Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj came as Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj and spread Sikhi. Satguru is the true form, whether that be in human body, or as Narsingh, or as Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj, or as Shabad Guru (these are all sargun (with form) forms of Maharaj). They are one and the same.

[simran345 2,538]

Okayji paji onlyfive i Will listen to Bhai Gurdas ji's vaars. I understand that bit about sargun fully and agree with it and with charan da pahul, that sangat had amrit from the Gurus charan. Totally believe in that. But what i am saying is no human can be compared to our Gurus, therefore i feel it would be wrong for me to bow down to any human as god. Do satkaar of highly spiritual when one recognises their qualities, yes. But not replace them and forget god. I understand that god is in all, even bad people or evil is creation of god. But we are in this world to better ourselves and to control our mann from going to the bad side, eg: doing paap.

Thank you for explaining the five elements bit, that's what i did not get.