Raise Your Voice Against The Curse Of Casteism In The Sikhs

[VanHelsingh]

Who told you that "We are told there is no place for using one's own intellect when placing faith in our Guru. "

Intellect has also been given to us by our Guru.

More you use it, better it becomes.

Brother, it's been said many a time on this site since I became a regular member on SikhSangat. I was also quite shocked.

[VanHelsingh]

Plus I'll be frank brother (and I'm not trying to offend anyone here) - what is the difference between the 'delicate disposition' you speak of and cowardice?

Conscientious objector types. :biggrin2: Not cowards but spiritual people not up for conflict or raised voices and heated words. Not me by the way - I'm always up for a ruck. But I do have my mellow moments.

[dalsingh101]

Conscientious objector types. :biggrin2: Not cowards but spiritual people not up for conflict or raised voices and heated words. Not me by the way - I'm always up for a ruck. But I do have my mellow moments.

I hear you!

Then, somethings demand a fight whether we like it or not, personally I think that is one of the key reasons dasmesh pita placed such a strong stress on being shasterdhari - or ready for conflict.

Thought I'd post this I came across, gives another good example of the pure rubbishness of western racial theories and their influence on stupid people of the subcontinent ......there are straight parallels between the ignoramus Hindu who has bought into the Aryan theory in the piece and some of our own misled brothers who lap up the Scythian theory.

http://sikhchic.com/current_events/swastika_heart_of_darkness

[gurdssingh]

I have loads in my family. I hope you have something better to say other than 'My own family is exactly the type that is behind this problem' and thus try to somehow 'normalise' it?

^^^^^

Maybe your family need to talk about this a bit more - and if the older ones are staunchly backwards, maybe the younger generation needs to take a lead and not perpetuate the penduness?

Well the loads in your family definetly buck the trend. Well done the 101 family.

If your honest and seriously think about it in genreal terms in the UK SIkh population well it just don't happen. There is no such thing as a jatt gurdwara but the ramgarhia and bhatt sabhas do actually cater for there own. Also true story, I friend wanted to get married in the gurdwara in Ipswich as it was the nearest place to her parents where there was a Gurdwara. Well after the commitee digged for the surname as 'Kaur' is not a surname 'wink, wink', they did not let her have an Anand Karaj there. She had to book in London East, the ceremony took place in Summer 2008. So don't tell me it don't happen.

I am married to someone who is Punjabi but not of same baradri as me. Also my parents arent backwards at all both were born in the UK

Also UKLondonSikh > maybe your experience is like DalSingh101's where you find caste doesn't even register with most Amritdharis. However in my case I have personally seen it.

[dalsingh101]

Well the loads in your family definetly buck the trend. Well done the 101 family.<br />

Use your brain and think about the potential effects of people like yourself who seem to be 'normalising' casteism amongst apnay. Try opening your mouth and supporting emerging positive trends instead of the old 'well you know, that's just how it goes' blarney. </div>

If your honest and seriously think about it in genreal terms in the UK SIkh population well it just don't happen. There is no such thing as a jatt gurdwara but the ramgarhia and bhatt sabhas do actually cater for there own.

Many people would totally disagree with you here. Hats off to Jatts who aren't stupid enough to post their jaat on a Gurdwara, but that being said, if you think that their aren't plenty of Gurdwaras out there in the UK which are generally understood to be and perceived as 'Jat Gurdwaras' by the local Sikh community (including both Jatts and those from other backgrounds) then you are living in cloud cuckoo land and - this says a lot about your perceptiveness (or lack of).

Also true story, I friend wanted to get married in the gurdwara in Ipswich as it was the nearest place to her parents where there was a Gurdwara. Well after the commitee digged for the surname as 'Kaur' is not a surname 'wink, wink', they did not let her have an Anand Karaj there. She had to book in London East, the ceremony took place in Summer 2008. So don't tell me it don't happen.<br />

No one is saying things don't happen.

I am married to someone who is Punjabi but not of same baradri as me. Also my parents arent backwards at all both were born in the UK<br />

Being born in the UK isn't any sort of protection from backwardness, you could be born/raised anywhere and still have backward pendu nonsense rammed in your brain by your family from a young age and perpetuate that nonsense.

maybe your experience is like DalSingh101's where you find caste doesn't even register with most Amritdharis. However in my case I have personally seen it.

You're misapprehending what I'm saying. I NOT saying casteism doesn't exist those who have taken Amrit, I'd agree with you and say that it does. In fact some of the most backwards caste adhering people I have met have come from Amritdhari backgrounds, so we are actually in agreement here. Where we seem to differ though is that you seem to be shrugging casteism off as a 'minor', whereas it disgusts me.

[VanHelsingh]

@ dalsingh - Having read your post on the previous page where you referenced Edward Said I was wondering whether it would be worth me picking up Said's other work "Culture and Imperialism"? Or should I stick with "Orientalism"? Must say I really would like to learn more about the stuff you wrote about the white imperialists coming over and being shocked at Sikhs displaying the kind of traits they thought were only present in their own kind.

[dalsingh101]

@ dalsingh - Having read your post on the previous page where you referenced Edward Said I was wondering whether it would be worth me picking up Said's other work "Culture and Imperialism"? Or should I stick with "Orientalism"?

I haven't read that other work by Said you mentioned, but will probably get on to it in due time. I have to say, Said's book was one of the most academic I have read and it took stamina too complete. Mostly this was because he surveys Orientalist literature (on Arabs mainly) and references a lot of historical works/authors I was unfamiliar with and I didn't have an Internet connection at the time to 'wikipedia' them. Said talks about people like Renan, William Jones (who I did know), someone called Rene and Chateaubriand amongst others (mostly linguists). Personally I would make this work mandatory reading for any conscious Sikh, but some brothers/sisters may find it hard to get from cover to cover - however, I don't think you'd have that issue. Read it, persevere and by all means discuss!

I had planned to create a thread where i would post interesting quotes from the work on the Sikhawareness.com forum but never got round to it. Maybe you could kick off something like that on this forum if you do go through the work?

Must say I really would like to learn more about the stuff you wrote about the white imperialists coming over and being shocked at Sikhs displaying the kind of traits they thought were only present in their own kind.

Not only Sikhs, I think they were especially bowled over by Sanskrit and ancient Hindu texts given their antiquity and sophistication. Prior to this they had imagined that only the 'classic Greeks' were capable of such things and this turned that (white supremacist) notion on its head. As I've alluded to before, this led to the emergence of the 'Aryan invasion' theories where they slyly and deftly turn Indic achievements into white European ones.

William Jones posited a common ancestor for Latin, Greek and Sanskrit - remember we have the phrase 'Indo-European' or 'Indo-Germanic' a categorisation to which Panjabi and English belong.

With Sikhs the English seem to have imagined Sikhi along the lines of their own protestant gibberish, and although on one level I understand their idea of Sikhi being a reform of Hinduism, along the lines between protestant and Catholic, their theory has so many potholes that I believe Sikhs should avoid getting sucked into it. I think it really knocked Sikh studies out of kilter and today a few of us wonder about just how protestant influenced we had/have become through the Singh Sabha movement, which is a contentious subject and worthy of its own research. If anything I see as many parallels between the Catholic worldview and Sikhi, by this I mean things like central beliefs in saints, valuing relics, historical sites, religious art. A central religious location (Harmandir Sahib-Amritsar/Vatican). Personally i believe wasps saw Sikhs in power and with a strange mixture of awe and characteristic jealously projected their own sh1t on these wild, free, independent Sikhs and their self made kingdom (and then proceeded to destroy it.....).

The point to note is the 'racialisation' of castes/tribes by Europeans and how some of our own peasantry seem too dumb to realise the reasons and motives behind this and proceed to 'talk in their masters voice' even today, curiously seeing themselves as more akin to the former colonialists than other Panjabi or Sikh brothers and sisters from different jaats. Anyone else with a bit more guile might have seen through the ruse and been a bit more skeptical of the white theories.

You want the best book of early perceptions of Sikhs by whiteys get Singh and Madra's 'Sicques, tigers and thieves'.

I'll close with another golden quote from Said's introduction to Orientalism:

'Lastly for readers in the so-called Third World, this study proposes itself as a step towards an understanding not so much of western politics and on the non-Western world in those politics as of the strength of Western cultural discourse, a strength too often mistaken as merely decorative, or "superstructural." My hope is to illustrate the formidable structure of cultural domination and, specifically for former colonized peoples, the dangers and temptations of employing this structure upon themselves or on others.'

[VanHelsingh]

Cheers for the info and recommendations, dalsingh. Seems 'Orientalism' is highly valued by Amazon reviewers which is always a good thing I guess, lol.

Although LOL at some of the butt-hurt 1 star reviews who don't like what Said is writing. Probably doesn't fit into their blinkered (white supremacist) view of the world.

[dalsingh101]

Cheers for the info and recommendations, dalsingh. Seems 'Orientalism' is highly valued by Amazon reviewers which is always a good thing I guess, lol.

It's a very important study. Core text on many university courses, so I'm not surprised.

And no problem, I've always got time for intelligent, curious brothers and sisters.

Although LOL at some of the butt-hurt 1 star reviews who don't like what Said is writing. Probably doesn't fit into their blinkered (white supremacist) view of the world.

Yes!!

There is a whole movement out there trying to discredit his work - and you're right to pick up on the fact that they are usually people with vested interests in the white cultural domination scenario Said talks about.

Interestingly, Harjot Oberoi, the controversial author of 'The construction of religious boundaries' also seems to try and play the 'anti-Said' game.....hhhmmmm But that's another topic.

Once you grasp Said's Orientalism it properly puts W. H. McLeod's work in perspective. McLeod was a modern day Orientalist of the most obstinate kind.

[panther]

Sikhs aint allowed to have caste, so cant believe some people even believe in those lies