Raise Your Voice Against The Curse Of Casteism In The Sikhs

[Singh559]

Wow what an amazing post DalSingh - strong words and nothing but truth. It shows how simple minded punjabis are who play into this. I believe a book on this can and must be written. It would be great.

[VanHelsingh]

What happens is faith / bharosa in the settled ways vs using one's own budh / analytical skills by looking at facts happens to waylay some people of a delicate disposition who are desperately seeking the truth as opposed to a version of it which may not entirely be accurate but has gained mainstream acceptance over the years. We are told there is no place for using one's own intellect when placing faith in our Guru. So those who do feel their conscience pricked by certain things are afraid to speak up because they feel that by doing so they will be rounded on for being faithless cynics or the like.

^^^ Just realised that has nothing to do with this thread and I was sent into a thought process after reading dalsingh's previous post and the thread 'Krishna in Sikhi'. :blush2: Apologies.

[JSinghnz]

What happens is faith / bharosa in the settled ways vs using one's own budh / analytical skills by looking at facts happens to waylay some people of a delicate disposition who are desperately seeking the truth as opposed to a version of it which may not entirely be accurate but has gained mainstream acceptance over the years. We are told there is no place for using one's own intellect when placing faith in our Guru. So those who do feel their conscience pricked by certain things are afraid to speak up because they feel that by doing so they will be rounded on for being faithless cynics or the like.

^^^ Just realised that has nothing to do with this thread and I was sent into a thought process after reading dalsingh's previous post and the thread 'Krishna in Sikhi'. :blush2: Apologies.

Who told you that "We are told there is no place for using one's own intellect when placing faith in our Guru. "

Intellect has also been given to us by our Guru.

More you use it, better it becomes.

[gurdssingh]

My personal experience is a lot of people will say they don't believe in caste but to some degree they might. I mean how many amritdhari couples do you know that have married someone outside of their baradari? Sikhs belong to the Khalsa but end of the day we all know even if we don't believe in caste what your background is caste wise. I mean a amritdhari jatt will rarely marry a tarkan a tarkan marry a chammar or chammar marry a bihari bhayia who has took Amrit. Only when amritdhari Sikhs truly believe in no jath path and inter Marry will the wider punjabi community pay heed as you can say it till the cows come home but how many of the posters in this thread are married to or have a family member married to someone from a higher or lower baradari ? I think most of your families are from the same, even though you don't believe in caste.

Does anyone want to answer the question I asked?

[dalsingh101]

deleted and reposted below

[dalsingh101]

What happens is faith / bharosa in the settled ways vs using one's own budh / analytical skills by looking at facts happens to waylay some people of a delicate disposition who are desperately seeking the truth as opposed to a version of it which may not entirely be accurate but has gained mainstream acceptance over the years. We are told there is no place for using one's own intellect when placing faith in our Guru. So those who do feel their conscience pricked by certain things are afraid to speak up because they feel that by doing so they will be <strong>rounded on for being faithless cynics or the like.</strong><br />

Maybe this has got a lot to do with the subject at hand?

Whose doing the 'rounding'?

Ever consider that they themselves may be doing this because they are misled (not exactly hard to be in this world is it?), or maybe they are actually knowingly pursuing some agenda/preserving or forming some materialistically advantageous status quo which motivates their actions?

I know there are limits to challenging set ways, and that this can be approached moronically (like that madman Darshan Ragi guy who abruptly started to tell people they had got nitnem all wrong). But I'll tell you straight up, some of our peasantry (past and present) only adopted this pseudo-European Scythian/Saka identity for purely ego enhancing purposes, it didn't matter to them that the theory was based on a pile of horse manure - it served a purpose - perceived exaltation. Proximity to the victorious power. Or, maybe they really were simple minded yokels ready to genuinely swallow anything and incapable of seeing through a simple psychological rouse like this? Although I find that hard to believe.

Thankfully, we didn't have some lowlife like Hitler with his 'Aryan' glory stories (and what hellish nightmare they led to). Or maybe we'll have a revisionist fool along those lines to look forward to in future, if the Panjab really goes down the toilet?

Plus I'll be frank brother (and I'm not trying to offend anyone here) - what is the difference between the 'delicate disposition' you speak of and cowardice? We know the caste thing is deeply embedded within our families and it will take a lot of us coming out of our comfort zones to address this - especially those from Jat backgrounds, too many of whom 'sit it out' as they are not usually on the receiving end of caste discrimination like some other groups may be.

If the video I posted is correct, then it points at some serious levels of stupidity amongst the lower socio-economic Jats being spoken of, who appear to be mindlessly going along with fellow Jats who don't really seem to give too much of a toss about them - hence the poor Jat suicide problem in Panjab people go on about periodically.

Let's be brutally frank, if the cancer stricken, polluted soil, drug/alcohol addicted Panjab of today, that all the youth seem to want to run away from (to the west) is the product of a Jatt political hegemony - then there needs to be a lot of shame being felt in certain quarters. Real talk.

[dalsingh101]

how many of the posters in this thread are married to or have a family member married to someone from a higher or lower baradari ?

I have loads in my family. I hope you have something better to say other than 'My own family is exactly the type that is behind this problem' and thus try to somehow 'normalise' it?

^^^^^

Maybe your family need to talk about this a bit more - and if the older ones are staunchly backwards, maybe the younger generation needs to take a lead and not perpetuate the penduness?

[Sherdil]

How come people don't just drop their surname and go by Singh or Kaur? If a group is being discriminated against, then why do they still associate themselves with that name?

Even if people intermarry, the surnames will continue. Then people will still say that they are descended from Jatts, Rajputs, Kambojas, etc.

[UKLondonSikh]

Gurds = My personal experience is a lot of people will say they don't believe in caste but to some degree they might.

UK = Paji as long as we all agree that anyone who believes in caste supremacy or caste endogamy does not believe in the essence of Sikhi. Hence a self-defined Jatt in East Punjab who doesn't truly believe in Sikhi can be Muslim or Hindu like 80% of their brothers in Pakistan + Haryana/Delhi etc. But a self-defined Jatt that believes in caste supremacy and caste endogamy cannot be Sikh per se (even though some will inevitably choose to define themselves as that). "Jatt" in the previous sentence can be freely substitiuted for any supremacist of another background who believes in caste endogamy - marrying exclusively within their so-called caste/tribe for the sake of it.

Gurds = I mean how many amritdhari couples do you know that have married someone outside of their baradari?

UK = Plenty have and the phenomena is increasing in the Diaspora year after year.

Gurds = Sikhs belong to the Khalsa but end of the day we all know even if we don't believe in caste what your background is caste wise.

UK = There are plenty of Gursikhs who simply have no background that you can pigeon-hole them into and who will never self-segmentalise themselves. And this is not a new phenomenon but the percentage in this category increase year after year (albeit too slowly thanks to the casteists)

Gurds = I mean a amritdhari jatt will rarely marry a tarkan a tarkan marry a chammar or chammar marry a bihari bhayia who has took Amrit.

UK = Historically in the case of de facto patits your argument may have had merit but it doesn't apply to true Amritdhari's.

UK = The term amritdhari jatt is an even bigger oxymoron than the self-defined label of jatt Sikh (one can only be one or the other)

UK = You can apply what you're saying to Kesdhari Sikhs but let's not disparage the Khalsa Panth without any evidence whatsoever.

Gurds = Only when amritdhari Sikhs truly believe in no jath path

UK = All true Amritdhari's utterly reject jaath-paath as that was the foundation stone of what the Khalsa Panth is about.

Gurds = and inter Marry will the wider punjabi community pay heed

UK = Agreed, intermarriage between historical sub-sections has got to be hammered home as an urgent priority within the Panth

Gurds = as you can say it till the cows come home but how many of the posters in this thread are married to or have a family member married to someone from a higher or lower baradari ?

UK = Paji respectfully, I think you're speaking for the majority of the members of your family rather than the majority of this forum's Sangat

Gurds = I think most of your families are from the same, even though you don't believe in caste.

UK = I daresay you're probably correct but this generation has the potential to challenge our Qaum's rather pitiful state in relation to jaath-paath-biraderi matters nowadays given that 313 years have passed since Vasakhi 1699. Killing off the separate matrimonial circle mindset is the key.

[dalsingh101]

UKLondonSikh Paji, you have to learn to use the quote function in your posts brother!!