Bigotry, Racism And Intolerance

[DalbirSingh]

I'm sorry DalbirSingh but I strongly object to the inclusion of any mention of Allah in the Sikh scriptures. Muslims have siezed on this and used this as some sort of proof that Sikhs should convert to Islam because they acknowledge Allah.

Allah is a fabrication made by a peadophile, rapist, thief, warlord (Muhammad), purely to further his own materialistic and political desires.

It is a mockery of all things Sikh to include anything associated with such a despicable person.

LOL Good friend Allah is explained in gurbani as well

ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਬੇਦੁ ਅਥਰਬਣੁ ਹੂਆ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਈ ਅਲਹੁ ਭਇਆ ॥

कलि महि बेदु अथरबणु हूआ नाउ खुदाई अलहु भइआ ॥

Kal mėh beḏ atharbaṇ hū▫ā nā▫o kẖuḏā▫ī alhu bẖa▫i▫ā.

In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.

ਨੀਲ ਬਸਤ੍ਰ ਲੇ ਕਪੜੇ ਪਹਿਰੇ ਤੁਰਕ ਪਠਾਣੀ ਅਮਲੁ ਕੀਆ ॥

नील बसत्र ले कपड़े पहिरे तुरक पठाणी अमलु कीआ ॥

Nīl basṯar le kapṛe pahire ṯurak paṯẖāṇī amal kī▫ā.

Men began to wear blue robes and garments; Turks and Pat'haans assumed power.

SGGS Guru Nanak Dev Ji ANG 470

Sikhi explains this better something older traditions differed from and failed to explain. Allah is another term for indra there is more depths to this since vedism is dead these days it's difficult to explain.

Now as for Allah from Islam with muhammad the prophet where did he get allah from? Muhammad was an arabian pagan he took the name from one of the gods in the kabbah temple of which there were 360 he took only one so to be inclusive with jews and christians of his time. We have history to prove the kabbah for the pagans was a hindu temple in ancient times there is much studies done to prove. Allah is a pagan god which is mentioned in the vedas, guru nanak dev ji was a highly studied into the vedas. If you reject allah totally then you reject a big piece of sikhism which is incorporated into gurbani which hasn't been explained well.

"On Allah: Allah is the expression of the Vedic form of Brahman as Varuna-Rudra, the Divine merciful one and judge supreme. He is later known as Mahakala and Kala Bhairava in later Hinduism. Allah comes from "Ila / Ile" meaning "To Invoke" (Rig Ved.I.1.1). In older times, Allah was worshipped through fire and sacrifices, hence the name. Muslims as devotees of Allah are hence invokers. Al-Illah is "Agnim Ile", the first words of the Rig Veda, "I invoke Agni (Inner Guide)".

Allah possesses many forms (names as attributes) in the Vedas, as per his own qualities. Soma is the sumna (grace) of Allah; Rudra is his wrath (krodha) and Varuna is his law (rta, dharma) and Mitra is his love and friendship (prema, sakha). Mitra-Varuna is Allah who forgives us for transgressing his laws (I.24.14, II.28.9; V.85.8, VII.86.5, X.97.16), as his is our beloved one (priya). Hence, the idea of forgiveness of sins in the Judeo-Christian tradition originates in the Vedic bhakti hymns of the Rig Veda (along with terms tarane, tara etc. as saviour, deliverer etc., pita, mata, sakha, mitra, priya, putra etc.). Indra-Varuna represents his Supreme Form as the All-God or Highest form, like later Parashiva or equal to Vedic Rudra, the primeval father.

Mitra-Varuna, the Samrajas (World Kings) are the true form of Allah and his origin. Varuna is also Brahma, the Creator-God who has four faces (V.48.5). Indra-Varuna is the creator of all beings (VII.82.5). VII.82.5 also states Mitra waits upon Varuna, so is much like his prophet, Seer or son. Like Jesus-Muhammad etc.

X.37.1 states that Surya (Sun) is the Eye of Mitra and Varuna. He is the banner (ketu) of the Gods. It was through the mental power of the Gods that Surya was created (VIII.76.1). Surya or Savitar as the Sun is also Prajapati, Twashtar, Vishwakarma or Dhatar, as the Cosmic Creator form of Mitra-Varuna or Indra-Varuna."

Muhammad took a diety which wasn't his, now for us we know muhammad wasn't a prophet guru nanak declared that already in janamsakhis, in sggs you will never find muhammad mentioned. As for manipulation of this you should blame sikhs who don't educate there children the religion, some feel religion shouldn't be educated so there children get manipulated easily. Muhammad plagarised that's all.

[DalbirSingh]

[DalbirSingh]

From zakir Naylak

the verse (2/1/11) of Ṛgveda says,

Tvamagne aditirdeva dâúuṣe tvaṃ hotrâ bhâratî

bardhase girâz

Tvamiḷâ úatahimasi dakṣase tvaṃ bṛtrahâ vasupate

sarasvatî zz

“Thou, God (Agni), art Aditi to him who offers gifts: thou Hotrâ, Bhâratî, art strengthed by the song. Thou art the hundred-wintered Ilâ to give strength, O Lord of wealth! Vṛtra-slayer and sarasvatî” [tr: ibid]. According to Sâyana, the most celebrated commentator on the Vedas, ilâ is the other name of Agni (the deity of fire). Furthermore, the entire Hymn (2/1) has been dedicated to God Agni and hence there is no doubt that the word ilâ in the verse stands for Agni.

The word ilâ also occurs in the verse (1/13/9) of the Rgveda, that reads,

Ilâ, sarasvatî mahî tisro devîrmayobhuvaḥ z

Varhiḥ sîdantasridhaḥ zz

“Ilâ, Sarasvatî and Mahî, three goddesses who bring delight, be seated, peaceful, on the grass”. In this verse, Ilâ is a goddess and, according to Sâyana, Ilâ in this verse may stand for earth, or cow, or vâc (speech).

In a similar manner, there is another word Alâ in the Rgveda that refers to various deities. The verse (3/30/10) contains the word and says,

Alâtṛṇo vala Indra vrajo goḥ pura hantorbhayamano byâra z

Sugatpatho akṛṇonniraje gaḥ prâvanvâṇîḥ purahûtaṃ

dhamantîḥ zz

“He who withheld the kine, in silence yielded in fear before thy blow, O Indra. He made paths easy to drive forth the cattle. Loud-breathing praises helped the much-invoked One” [tr: ibid]. Here, Alâ is the other name of Indra. The entire Hymn (3/30) has been dedicated to Indra and this confirms that the word Alâ in the verse refers to Indra.

The word Alâ also occurs in the verse (9/67/30) of the Rgveda that says,

Alâyasya paraúurṇâúa tamâ pavasva deva soma z

Âkhuṃ cideva deva soma zz

“O, deva Soma, we pray to you so that the battle-axe of our enemy gets broken- Alâ, you descend and kill our irretating enemy”. Though the Hymn (9/67) has been dedicated to both Soma and Agni, scholars believe that the word Alâ in this verse refers to Soma or the Moon (or Soma) .

[Singh559]

If we really want to preserve the sanctity of anand karaj and maharaj should we stop all sehajdharis from marrying or all monehs all punjabis and reserve anand karaj only for amritdharis if people denounce sikhi by cutting there hair further drinking and so on. Isn't a moneh a non sikh anyway. Maharaj in dasam bani is suggesting ekta of dharams.

There is a difference between a bigot and a racist you can be either one or both or neither they are mutually independent.

why have we been so late to stop this marriage, marriages like this have been happening for a very long time from baba khem singh bedi marrying his daughter into the bachans and so on till today and we promote them infront of children who carry on doing them. Are we wrong to stop that shouldn't sikhi be a choice as is with the children of such marriages to choose sikhi later on.

You didn't answer my questions on the previous page bro.

Sahajdhari and those who cut their hair do believe Guru Granth Sahib Ji as their Guru though, we are no one to say otherwise. Someone who is a non-Sikh (doesn't believe in Guru Granth Sahib Ji as their Guru) bows down to Guru Sahib and part-takes in Anand Karaj for what reason?

There has to be a line drawn and it's when someone clearly isn't a Sikh. Do you think in days of old Sikhs would allow a Mussalman or Hindu to marry under Anand Karaj if they didn't believe in it? It has nothing to do with race or hate, it just has to do with belief system.

They have been occurring for some years now, but it doesn't make it right. If a kid has secretly been taking cookies from a cookie jar he isn't supposed to take, it doesn't make it right that he's been doing it for a long time, now does it?

[Pyara]

This may be off-topic, but it's in response to this repetitive recent argument being put forward (also raised by Dalbir Singh above) regarding Sehajdharis/Monay and the Anand Karaj.

It is evident that the kalyugi evolution of the Sikhs as a community has meant some erosion, degradation and lack of acceptance of many Sikh values specifically the outer roop. The mona/patit does now make up a disproportionate majority in the community. There’s no denying this is a massive issue and the battle against patit-pauna is on top of the agenda of the Sikh Nation.

Nevertheless, the Panthic accepted Rehit Maryada gives the definition of a Sikh as per below, ironically this definition dates back to early 20^th Century (with consultation of the major bodies at the time including Sant Samaj, nirmalay) and ensured the Sikh nation encompassed the diversity which existed even back then. This means that an individual with the beliefs below is a Sikh regardless of being a sehajdhari/mona or keshdhari. This is not in anyway undermining the journey to being an amritdhari Khalsa which as point (v) states is the expectation of anyone who classifies themselves as Sikh.

As per Sikh Reht Maryada, Section One, Chapter 1

The Definition of Sikh :

Article I

Any human being who faithfully believes in

i. One Immortal Being,

ii. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib,

iii. The Guru Granth Sahib,

iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and

v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh

Whilst I also cringe at the abuse of the Anand Karaj by standard Sikh families who rush into the Gurdwara to rush out to enjoy the booze-up/kanjarpauna later, that is the fault and responsibility of all of us (particularly the local Amritdhari Gursikhs) for not ensuring the implementation of Satkaar in their local Gurdwaras. Also the mona born into a Sikh family has to possess an understanding of their legacy and obligation, that’s again the responsibility of local Gursikhs and Gurdwaras in terms of the mentoring programmes and parchaar.

It’s now time to follow in the footsteps of Gurdwaras like those in Luton and Derby who have robust Anand Karaj protocols and follow a system of consultations with the couple and the families to ensure the satkaar of the Anand Karaj is maintained.

When a white or black man/woman walks in the Gurdwara tomorrow and expresses a desire to follow Sikhi then we will always be supportive in their journey and step up to guiding them and that’s what the majority of us Sikhs will always do.

[N30S1NGH]

If anyone want to see punjabiyat bigot ,racist/pendu and tribal nature being nailed to wall, one should listen to sri singh sahib harbhajan singh yogi lectures in punjabi..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..no wonder tribal groups hate him..lol

[DalbirSingh]

You didn't answer my questions on the previous page bro.

Sahajdhari and those who cut their hair do believe Guru Granth Sahib Ji as their Guru though, we are no one to say otherwise. Someone who is a non-Sikh (doesn't believe in Guru Granth Sahib Ji as their Guru) bows down to Guru Sahib and part-takes in Anand Karaj for what reason?

There has to be a line drawn and it's when someone clearly isn't a Sikh. Do you think in days of old Sikhs would allow a Mussalman or Hindu to marry under Anand Karaj if they didn't believe in it? It has nothing to do with race or hate, it just has to do with belief system.

They have been occurring for some years now, but it doesn't make it right. If a kid has secretly been taking cookies from a cookie jar he isn't supposed to take, it doesn't make it right that he's been doing it for a long time, now does it?

Surely if someone follows Guru Granth Sahib as there guru they will do as guru says that means they will keep there kesh. How can a sehajadhari believe in guru if he doesn't follow guru? Our cultural punjabi sikhs who put emphasis on there caste are far from it, why do we even call them sikhs?

[Singh559]

Surely if someone follows Guru Granth Sahib as there guru they will do as guru says that means they will keep there kesh. How can a sehajadhari believe in guru if he doesn't follow guru? Our cultural punjabi sikhs who put emphasis on there caste are far from it, why do we even call them sikhs?

We have to start somewhere to draw the line, when someone clearly doesn't claim to be a Sikh, wouldn't you agree that's the best place to start?

I agree with you completely, but once we draw this line slowly we can bring the collective consciousness of the panth to a higher level where we won't need to stop such marriages, but people will stop on their own due to the positive energy overflowing from the collective Panth.

[DalbirSingh]

We have to start somewhere to draw the line, when someone clearly doesn't claim to be a Sikh, wouldn't you agree that's the best place to start?

I agree with you completely, but once we draw this line slowly we can bring the collective consciousness of the panth to a higher level where we won't need to stop such marriages, but people will stop on their own due to the positive energy overflowing from the collective Panth.

if we take someone testimony to be a sikh we can then bend all the rules and have no takhian or excommunications even the kala for the wedding could turn up and say he is a sikh which we know is not true do we base sikhi on testimony of saying i am a sikh rather then acting to sikh rehat

[UKLondonSikh]

If we think about punjabiyat culture itself is quite racist to begin with..racism in punjabiyaat culture definitely has the influence from hindu caste system. Punjabiyaat culture have shoved Gurmat into small close end tunnel by superimposing its own view on Sikhi...you will see its effect not on a large scale but its still there in the panth but more evidently so for eg- singh sabha gurdwaras full of jatts- non jatt cannot be member in the committe, ramgharia gurdwara- same stuff, ravidas gurdwaras- same stuff, jatha engaing in karam kaand rituals and discrimating like pandits, discrimation within mahant system- udasi, nirmale, nihangs jathedaris- seperate amrit for mazhbhi sikhs, during amrit sanchar if muslim wants to convert to khalsa panth they have to bury him under sand to purify his "tats" also have muslims eat pork before converting..may be during those times make sense- precaution against inflitration but making it into permanent maryada and hold any value at this current age is going against gurmat.

N30 Paji i totally agree with the direction of your post. You're totally correct on most of it. However, I respectfully wanted to say pyaar naal that Singh Sabha Gurdware are not Jatt Gurdware. Singh Sabha under the leadership Giani Ditt Singh Ji (who was not of Jatt ancestry but whose ancestors were thought of with the same contempt Hindu's had for Ravidas Ji Maharaj) were at the forefront of fighting jaath-paath hangovers from Hinduism+Islam within the Panth.

I'm sorry DalbirSingh but I strongly object to the inclusion of any mention of Allah in the Sikh scriptures. Muslims have siezed on this and used this as some sort of proof that Sikhs should convert to Islam because they acknowledge Allah.

Allah is a fabrication made by a peadophile, rapist, thief, warlord (Muhammad), purely to further his own materialistic and political desires.

It is a mockery of all things Sikh to include anything associated with such a despicable person.

Borat, I am afraid you have totally got the wrong end of the stick on this one. Allah is a name for one God in present day Arabic. The 1 God has many names in various languages. Allah has no connection to Prophet Muhammad, who as you correctly point out was by modern definition a peadophile for consummating his marriage to Aisha when she was only aged 9 years old whereas he was then well over fifty years old. It can safely be assumed that the very same Prophet Muhammad who owned, traded and sold African slaves (including child slaves) certainly had no connection to Allah as the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj describes Allah (as 1 God). Similarly, we must never forget that when the word "Ram" is mentioned in SGGS Ji Maharaj, that the Ram referred to is not Ram Chander the human being (or Avatar as perceived by Hindu's) but rather the 1 formless God as described in Gurbani.

There has to be a line drawn and it's when someone clearly isn't a Sikh.

>> UK = Paji, before the 20th Century the definition of an ordinary Sikh was anybody that would bow down before SGGS Ji Maharaj. It's our enemies that wish to limit the definition of a Sikh to as low a number as possible. Amritdhari GurSikh values will never be diluted by having a greater number of sehajdhari folks within the Panth. To the contrary, a greater number of committed Amritdhari Khalsa will arise as evidenced in 1699.

Do you think in days of old Sikhs would allow a Mussalman or Hindu to marry under Anand Karaj if they didn't believe in it?

>> UK = Paji, lakhs if not millions of what the RSS define as Hindu's have been married according to Anand Karaj rites. The mistake we are making is by not recognising those folks as sehajdhari Sikhs. Thousands of erstwhile Muslim brides have become Sikh by willingly participating in Anand Karaj (because they recognise the inherent equality expressed by the Truth of Sikhi in stark contrast to the inferiority of women within Islam). No true Muslim will ever bow down to SGGS Ji when the sacred black stone in Mecca is there for them to worship+touch instead. Therefore, if someone born to Muslim parents wishes to change their second name to Singh and confirms that they disavow those ayat in the Quran which degrade women then i think it's all good. After all, the first Sikh in history - Bhai Mardana Ji - was born to Muslim parents but rejected the Islam the Mullahs had foisted on him as soon as Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj expressed the Truth. Note that the so-called "high caste Ashraf" Muslim Mullahs despised Bhai Mardana's parents as so-called low caste Muslims simply because they were descended from Hindu converts of a poor background.

Nevertheless, the Panthic accepted Rehit Maryada gives the definition of a Sikh as per below, ironically this definition dates back to early 20^th Century.

UK = When the definition was drafted is key Paji. The current definition of a Sikh dates back to the early 20th Century when General Dwyer was getting his siropa. The greater the number of Sehajdhari we have within the fold of Sikhi, the more truly committed Amritdhari GurSikhs will arise in due course from that enlarged Panth.

Whilst I also cringe at the abuse of the Anand Karaj by standard Sikh families who rush into the Gurdwara to rush out to enjoy the booze-up/kanjarpauna later, that is the fault and responsibility of all of us (particularly the local Amritdhari Gursikhs) for not ensuring the implementation of Satkaar in their local Gurdwaras. Also the mona born into a Sikh family has to possess an understanding of their legacy and obligation, that’s again the responsibility of local Gursikhs and Gurdwaras in terms of the mentoring programmes and parchaar.

>> UK = Agreed

It’s now time to follow in the footsteps of Gurdwaras like those in Luton and Derby who have robust Anand Karaj protocols and follow a system of consultations with the couple and the families to ensure the satkaar of the Anand Karaj is maintained.

>> UK = Agreed

When a white or black man/woman walks in the Gurdwara tomorrow and expresses a desire to follow Sikhi then we will always be supportive in their journey and step up to guiding them and that’s what the majority of us Sikhs will always do.

>> UK = Agreed