~~ Ways Of Beating Rss/bjp/arya Samaji Theologically ~~

[GPS]

Sikhism does not teach us to hate any other religion. rss/bjp were attacking minorities couple of years back especially when NDA

that was bjp ruled Govt came to power.Presently they are engaged in their internal fights and no more potent as they were a few years ago.

Main threat to sikhi is from within i.e. nastik missionaries within us.we can defeat a visible enemy but it becomes quite difficult to identify an enemy within.Let us concentrate our energies with present threat as panthic singhs defeated nastik dhundha in debate in california.

pl ease see http://www.panthic.org/articles/5488

[lsingh]

In the Punjab there has been a big rise in Radhasoamis,nakali Babas, Tantrics etc who call themselves Gurus and therefore insult the Sri Guru Granth Sahib They have a big grip on large sections of the community who are being led into Brahmin mat. Even Gursikhs have started going to fortune tellers who guide major decisions in their lives. The rise in Patits was evident when I visted most parts of the Punjab recently, Keshdhari youth are in the minority. We need to work on the basics of Sikhi as well.

[N30S1NGH]

Bhai sahib n30 singh ji

i respect you as a genuine gursikh with lots of love for sikhi, But in gurbani only one akal purakh is to believed in and worshipped.other devi, devtas were engrossed in maya and gurbani states that.They are not to be worshipped by sikhs.

please read carefully what guru gobind singh ji writes in bachitra natak. nothing can be more clearer than that/

Thanks for your post GPS Ji,

I wasn't talking about worshiping but rather acknowledgement and respect shown where its due to previous avtars.. just like how sri guru granth sahib ji has given and sant baba gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale have done in their samparda's teeka- such as japji sahib as mentioned earlier listing six different types of avtar and their kala(power)...I think by simply doing that because a) its right thing to do as gurmat keeps a right balance- while carefully also setting the record straight like in sri dasam granth sahib i.e- avtars are there to invoke devotion but gurmat aim is to connect with sri akaal purkh not these avtars via shabad/atma gyan b) great tool for missionary parchar...we could bring lot of people from indic soceity into Gurmat ..most puratan mahapursh were successful doing so bring all into Gurmat, they simply acknowledged and give respect where its due...one of member mentions sakhi of sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale-

once Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji mahapursh were doing katha from Krishan Avtar (Dasam GurDarbar) about his leelas with many of his women friends and one Singh, a student of the university began to laugh and said "ha ha look at what Krishna was upto" and Sant Ji became very angry and gave him extreme punishment

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji talking about avtars and Sri Dasam Granth sahib ji talking about avtars is not contradictory at all rather they are talking at two different sphere/consciousness/dimension/mindset..... sri guru granth sahib ji acknowledges avtars (yug avtars of akaal purkh) ,also talks about bhagat devotional aspect towards avtars, how sargun avtars gave darshan to bhagats, narsingh avtar of akaal purkh to save parhlad bhagat and destroy harnakash whereas sri dasam granth sahib ji whilst giving respect where its due such as chaubis avtar , at the end setting the record straight and giving updesh to people as there were major imbalances between bhagti and gyan around that time - 90 percent of snatan people wrapped their head around sargun devotion of avtars and confined sri akaal purkh in sargun devotion so much so that they have forgotten all about akaal purkh (sat chit anand- omnipresent) so maharaj rightly so as - set the record straight- people need rise above from sargun worship by giving examples of failures of these avtars and attach ourselves to only worship akaal purkh, mahakaal (ikongkar) which is parkash roop of everyone..!!!!!!

It's complex subject- ..please read john tirath singh nirmala analysis on metaphysics on avtars from bhavrasasmrit.

There is nothing bhramanical about Vahiguroo transceding its attributes or immanent its attributes to sargun(shud satogun) avtars according to need and time. There are many different types of avtar (listen to sant gyani gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale on avtars in japji sahib katha)

Jab Jab Hot Arsat Apara

Tab Tab Deh Dharat Avtara (Bachitar Natak)

Whenever numerous tyrants take birth

Then that one takes avtar in physical form.

Every one should read 18 long pages anyalsis in english on avtarvad and sikhi by tirath singh nirmala in Bhavrasamrit teeka translations and commentary. It's very interesting and clarifies gurmat position on avtarvaad and clears lot of misconception.

Whilst gurmat uses concept of avtar where it needs to, according to time (for guidance and to invoke devotion and prem - puran guru avtar - sri guru nanak dev ji form in 10 forms, puran hari avtars- krishna ram chandar ji etc, narsingh to kill harnakash and save parlad, nit avtars- saints etc) and for devotion for gurmukhs (sargun vahiguroo upma in our granths - sri guru granth sahib, sri dasam granth, sri sarbloh granth and other ithasik granths soraj parkash etc be it in form of gurbani tuks, mangal charan etc) it does not over emphasize importance on avtars to the point where sikhs start making same mistakes as some follower of other avtars did in the past have did - mistaking the gunas (shud satogun etc) themselves as nirgun chaitan vahiguroo instead of transcending naturally to gyan layer of sikhi or also idiolizing the avtars limited to an idol worshipping and getting stuck at idol worshipping forgetting indestructibale nirgun paratma. Hence, having dvait (duality) contary to Gurmat, as Gurmat is advait (non duality Marg).

Gurmat uses very careful and balance approach when it comes to avtarvad and Sikhi so sikhs don't pitfall like other followers of other dharams have. Gurbani contains two sides of same coin to teaching on avtar emphasing brahman (nirgun paratma) in sat chit anand ( Ad ant eko avtara sohi samjheo guru hamra) and on other side of coin presenting sargun paratma in form of our guru sahib to invoke devotion ie- prem.

Quote

Considered carefully there is no contradictions here on two sides of same coin on avtarvaad, its only clear guidance about the two paramaters by which to understand nature of avatar; the symbolic form is to inculate devotion, inspiration, adoration, love and sacrifice purely as a means to realise that which is beyond gunas

Ighai Nirugn Ughai Sargun kel Karat Bich Swami Mera

Here ( you are) formless; there (you are) with form. You play it both ways, O my swami || Ang - 827

[GPS]

IT was God's act to save prahlad and he sent his messenger to save prahlad. bhagats whose bani is included in sGGS ji were worshippers of akal purakh.At one stage of life they might be devotees of these avtars but on God realization they were no more their devotees. Otherwise it is duality that Gurbani condemns.

Gurbani says that origin of these devi devtas is maya.

Devi,deva mool hai maya

SGGS ji

Anyone who is engrossed in maya will not be able to realize God. They were sent as avtars but they failed in their mission

ਮੈਲਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਮੈਲਾ ਇੰਦੁ ॥
मैला ब्रहमा मैला इंदु ॥
Mailā barahmā mailā inḏ.
Brahma is polluted, and Indra is polluted.

ਰਵਿ ਮੈਲਾ ਮੈਲਾ ਹੈ ਚੰਦੁ ॥੧॥
रवि मैला मैला है चंदु ॥१॥
Rav mailā mailā hai cẖanḏ. ||1||
The sun is polluted, and the moon is polluted. ||1||

ਮੈਲਾ ਮਲਤਾ ਇਹੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥
मैला मलता इहु संसारु ॥
Mailā malṯā ih sansār.
This world is polluted with pollution.
ਇਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਜਾ ਕਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਰੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

इकु हरि निरमलु जा का अंतु न पारु ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Ik har nirmal jā kā anṯ na pār. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Only the One Lord is Immaculate; He has no end or limitation. ||1||Pause||

ਮੈਲੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡਾਇ ਕੈ ਈਸ ॥
मैले ब्रहमंडाइ कै ईस ॥
Maile barahmandā▫i kai īs.
The rulers of kingdoms are polluted.

ਮੈਲੇ ਨਿਸਿ ਬਾਸੁਰ ਦਿਨ ਤੀਸ ॥੨॥
मैले निसि बासुर दिन तीस ॥२॥
Maile nis bāsur ḏin ṯīs. ||2||
Nights and days, and the days of the month are polluted. ||2||

ਮੈਲਾ ਮੋਤੀ ਮੈਲਾ ਹੀਰੁ ॥
मैला मोती मैला हीरु ॥
Mailā moṯī mailā hīr.
The pearl is polluted, the diamond is polluted.

ਮੈਲਾ ਪਉਨੁ ਪਾਵਕੁ ਅਰੁ ਨੀਰੁ ॥੩॥
मैला पउनु पावकु अरु नीरु ॥३॥
Mailā pa▫un pāvak ar nīr. ||3||
Wind, fire and water are polluted. ||3||

ਮੈਲੇ ਸਿਵ ਸੰਕਰਾ ਮਹੇਸ ॥
मैले सिव संकरा महेस ॥
Maile siv sankrā mahes.
Shiva, Shankara and Mahaysh are polluted.

ਮੈਲੇ ਸਿਧ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਅਰੁ ਭੇਖ ॥੪॥
मैले सिध साधिक अरु भेख ॥४॥
Maile siḏẖ sāḏẖik ar bẖekẖ. ||4||
The Siddhas, seekers and strivers, and those who wear religious robes, are polluted. ||4||

ਮੈਲੇ ਜੋਗੀ ਜੰਗਮ ਜਟਾ ਸਹੇਤਿ ॥
मैले जोगी जंगम जटा सहेति ॥
Maile jogī jangam jatā saheṯ.
The Yogis and wandering hermits with their matted hair are polluted.

ਮੈਲੀ ਕਾਇਆ ਹੰਸ ਸਮੇਤਿ ॥੫॥
मैली काइआ हंस समेति ॥५॥
Mailī kā▫i▫ā hans sameṯ. ||5||
The body, along with the swan-soul, is polluted. ||5||

ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਤੇ ਜਨ ਪਰਵਾਨ ॥
कहि कबीर ते जन परवान ॥
Kahi Kabīr ṯe jan parvān.
Says Kabeer, those humble beings are approved,

ਨਿਰਮਲ ਤੇ ਜੋ ਰਾਮਹਿ ਜਾਨ ॥੬॥੩॥
निरमल ते जो रामहि जान ॥६॥३॥
Nirmal ṯe jo rāmėh jān. ||6||3||
and pure, who know the Lord. ||6||3||

ang 1158

[taran0]

I understand what N30Singh is trying to say

and he is right, we cannot completely dismiss and reject what has come before from our history, our ancestors, otherwise we lose the essence of gurujees message that ALL IS ONE!

but it is going to be so hard to explain this to everyone, even certain parts of guru Granth Sahib Ji are hard to swallow for some modern Sikhs. sheshnag, dhrroo, prehlaad, ganika, arjun, harnakhs, ravan, ram chandr all their examples are present in Guru Granth Sahib ji as are all the diferent names attributed to god Hari, Raam, prabhu, Shiv, Ragunath etc

we need to understand where guruji is refering to historical fugures and when he is refering to the functional qualities of God

Bhagat Kabeer clarifies in Guru Granth Sahib ji who he means when he says RAAM -

kabeer raamai raam kahu kehibae maahi bibaek ||
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.

eaek anaekehi mil gaeiaa eaek samaanaa eaek ||191||
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191||

The same goes for KAAL and MAHAKAAL which Sanatanists, arya samaj and the dasam nindhaks all confuse to their own end.

there is a fine line and it is so easy for anyone to blur it , especially if they have a nefarious underlying motive....

We must respect the devtey, understand and learn from their good examples and mistakes, not reject them totally as not to even learn about their history, or disrespect them, but as our gurus did only worship Akaal purkh vaheguru and his naam. in dasam granth it says he created the demons and agnels and himelf created conflict between the two....

the same god who made us also made the devi devtey and other creations and planets and overlooked their times as well as ours - all was the doing of Akaal purkh.

[N30S1NGH]

Thanks for your great post taran0..Gurbani is deep ocean of knowledge and with that in mind, we need to leave our pre conceived notions or biases before entering guru maharaj darbar.. many of gurbani tukhs/pauris cannot be confined to only sargun arths nor it can't be confined to only nirgun arths...In Sikhi, sargun and nirgun are ONE, there is no dualism as compare to other matts..nirgun and sargun is spontaneous flow when we listen to gurbani arths done by sant gyani gurbachan singh khalsa bhindranwale they usually do both sargun and nirgun arths..why? because its never ending flow of folding and unfolding sargun into nirgun, nirgun to sargun...gurbani also is fully connect to our human consciousness whether we realize it or not..my own example - 5-6 years ago- my birthi was pretty much sargun in nature, when listening to gurbani katha- i found sargun arth of gurbani more appealing to invoke more devotion in me so so much i totally shut myself off from nirgun/gyan arths of gurbani.. but now in over time i also prefer nirgun arths of gurbani because its help me personally go deep within my own self..whilst giving respect where its due to avtars, the reality is in gyan marg each human real self is atma-paratma(vahiguroo)/supreme consciousness itself..so in essence- each one of us is avtar ..!!

Some may say its ironic how despite not caring about avtars but despite of that i am still defending- have been defending avtars of vahiguroo following foot steps of vadaie mahapursh of sikh panth..reason being - Actual tat in Sikhi, sargun(bhakti devotional feeling towards avtars) and nirgun(gyan- man tu jot saroop hai, apna mool panchain) are magnificently blended together as non dual ONE(Ikongkar) so much so that as as a sikhi one cannot favor one over another (sargun over nirgun, nirgun over sargun), but as a sikh one should let their consciousness in spontaneous flow where ever maharaj takes ...no fighting back with our own pre-conceived notions or bias, just jump right in the ocean of bliss- sargun is nirgun, nirgun is sargun-

~~!! IK ADVAIT SAT CHIT ANAND SAROOP -Vahiguroo !! ~~

[GPS]

No one is rejecting devtas existence.Point is they are not to be worshipped.Only one akal purakh is to be worshipped. Devtas could not surpass maya. On the other hand gurbani cites some gurmukhs such as dhru, prahlad , raja janak etc. WE are to follow gurbani and at the sametime do not show disrespect to any other religion. IT is their belief and be good to them.

God resides in everyone. When we say sargun all humanity is sargun.But we have to realize parmatma by becoming guruwala i.e. taking amrit and then practice naam simran and follow gurbani.

[UKLondonSikh]

UK = Paji GPS I'm pleased to finally say that I actually agree with much of what you say in this thread. I don't agree with the level of respect N30 Paji holds for certain Indic figures, however, I do believe that N30 Paji's natural hamdardi for the Sanatan side of the Sikh spectrum would mean that out of myself and him, he could draw more Hindu brothers and sisters into Sikhi. And i feel that it doesn't matter too much via which marg people join the Sikh Panth - so long as we kindly and lovingly encourage others to join Sikhi as an enlarged Panth's greater population presence has greater ability to do Sarbat dha Bhalla.

UK = For example, 300 million Sikhs can help the poor and oppressed of the World much more if our Panth is 300 million strong rather than 30 million strong currently or 3 million if we exclude the sehajdhari majority. If we start excluding schools of thought that we dislike we might end up with 30,000 or 300,000 Sikhs - who in isolation will never make a global impact on a world of 7billion people.

GPS = Main threat to sikhi is from within i.e. nastik missionaries within us.we can defeat a visible enemy but it becomes quite difficult to identify an enemy within.

UK = Obviously, I disagree with you here Paji. Female infanticide, the drugs epidemic, jaath-paath divisions including separate Gurdwaray, the defeat of poverty and illiteracy, the rise of Dera's funded by the Panth's enemies are some obviously bigger threats to the Panth.

GPS = Only one akal purakh is to be worshipped. Devtas could not surpass maya. WE are to follow gurbani and at the sametime do not show disrespect to any other religion. IT is their belief and be good to them.

GPS = God resides in everyone. When we say sargun all humanity is sargun.But we have to realize parmatma by becoming guruwala i.e. taking amrit and then practice naam simran and follow gurbani.

UK = Agreed Paji. Naam simran means different things to different people, of course :-)

GPS = Bhai sahib n30 singh ji i respect you as a genuine gursikh with lots of love for sikhi, But in gurbani only one akal purakh is to believed in and worshipped.other devi, devtas were engrossed in maya and gurbani states that.They are not to be worshipped by sikhs.

UK = 100% agree with u GPS Paji

[Guest]

Devis and Devtas should be respected...but never worship them.Guru gobind Singh Ji in chandi di vaar respected Durga Ji because of her strength...He never worshiped her or put her in front of Waheguru Ji...

[lsingh]

Pakandhis continue insult the Guru Sahibs with little opposition from Sikhs.

Bhaniarawala acquitted
Tribune News Service

Ropar, March 4
An Ambala court has acquitted Baba Piara Singh Bhaniara for publishing a controversial book titled “Bhav Sagar Samunder Amarbani Granth”. He had also released cassettes.

The publication, sale and possession of this book was banned on the ground that the book was defamatory to the Sikh religion. It was also alleged that the material promoted enmity between different groups of society on grounds of religion

A case under Sections 501, 295A and 153A was registered against the baba 12 years ago on October 3, 2001 at Nurpur Bedi. Following this Baba Bhaniara was arrested in October 2001.

The prosecution failed to prove that these books were penned down by Baba Piara Singh Bhaniara and that the material was recovered from his dera. Thereafter, Ambala Chief Judicial Magistrate Anshu Jain acquitted him.

CONTROVERSIAL FIGURE

• Was arrested for publishing a controversial book titled “Bhav Sagar Samunder Amarbani Granth”
  • The publication, sale and possession of the book was banned on the ground that it was defamatory to Sikh religion