I blame Jatts

[chatanga]

So, brother Mehtab singh, has this been practised from the Guru's times?

[Mehtab Singh]

I see where you are going with this, LOL. It may have been practiced, it may not have been practiced, depends on what we are reading up in historical sources. My only point about inter-marriages is that if we want the Khalsa to be one strong community, this jaat-paat has to go. I personally know GurSikh families who have had their sons/daughters married into other backgrounds and they've never had any caste-related issues. Hopefully this is a start and we can in future someday achieve the goal of a casteless society that Gurbani encourages.

As for if this happened in Guru Sahib's times, veerji, in Guru Sahib's times, the Sikhs had a lot more pyaar towards each other, hopefully that comes back as well. In Guru Sahib's times, Singhs would put another's happiness before their own and be ready to take the bullet for each other, I hope we also gain that sort of mentality. Because once we do, people like me won't have to put forward claims like I did, as the prem-bhaav which Sikhs lack today will return, and the issue of marrying our progeny to those different from us won't arise, as then we won't see any Sikh different/lower from ourselves.

Bhai Kulbir Singh jee at Gurmat Bibek forum responded to this claim of mine very wisely long time back. He said that just since it is wrong to follow castes, and it is wrong to specifically select a family of the same "jaat" to marry off your kids to, same way it can also be wrong to actually go out and find a different "jaat" to marry off your kids, because even then you are still stuck under the "jaat-paat" hysteria. I really liked his opinion as I never saw things from that angle, which is why I primarily emphasize unity and prem bhaav among Sikhs, followed by inter-marriages among various backgrounds (note how I refrain from using caste when I talk about marriage, I say background because marriage is something sacred in Sikhi, caste isn't) as it will only add to the unity and prem bhaav (lets at least hope so).

My views may come off as stupid and offensive, but sorry, I am saying only what I learnt from Sikhi, i.e. no jaat-paat. Folks who've seen this inhuman practice all their lives growing up, and who may have dislike for "others" (for whatever reason) will find my message ridiculous, and thats alright. Its such a shame, that inspite of being born in a Brahmin family I wasn't told on a single occasion that I was superior to others, even though thats what Brahmins did for centuries and I finally found it only in school textbooks for the first time, yet we have some Sikhs who have been blessed with the clear message in Gurbani about equality and find excuses (hilarious ones) to somehow justify jaat-paat. Truly that is shameful. These are the few and rare moments in life when I actually do not feel unfortunate for being born in a non-Sikh background. The caste cancer is something I was exposed to only a lot later, and may be that is why I see it as nothing but another form of oppression.

[luckysingh99]

We can't start blaming each other.

As far as I see it, the jaat paat won't go on after a few generations, especially with us guys in the west.

The kids of tomorrow are not going to care who's grandpa wasa farmer, lohar or kumar.

The great grandkids of papa chamaar will be proud to wear leather Nikes and Adidas.

At the end of the day, it was the Jatts that contributed to the biggest shaheedian.

The funny thing about the Jatts is that they will preach and say that ''jaat paat nahin chahidee'- it's wrong and ghalath.

Then later they will say to each other ''mein Jatt da putha'' - anyone mess with me, I will show them what this jatt does...etc...

Hey, most of the fun we have in punjabi is infused by the same jatts.

I will be honest, I don't agree with jaat and caste and mixing it in with sikhi, But at the end of the day- when the Jatt song starts playing, I have to be there doing my bit of desi bhangra.

Nothing makes a jatt more proud of dancing with regards to his own trade of khethi and farming.

Unlike brahmins...etc.. Jatt don't go around saying they are the best or they are better, but they are simply proud of their contribution to agriculture and love to celebrate their hard work and earnings with the rest of the world.!!!

Saying that, all punjabis whatever caste are pretty harmless and not too offensive for any reason.

Long live the punjabis

[Mehtab Singh]

Does that "long live" go for all Punjabis? Coz remember, there are Hindus (some even Brahmins) and Muslims in Punjab as well, besides the Christians and Jains too.

[chatanga]

I see where you are going with this, LOL. It may have been practiced, it may not have been practiced, depends on what we are reading up in historical sources. My only point about inter-marriages is that if we want the Khalsa to be one strong community, this jaat-paat has to go.

Bro the way I see it, is that there was a very strong Sikh brotherhood, Dal Khalsa, where every Sikh was as valuable as any other. But even in these times i have never heard of intercaste marriage. If Sikhs can accept their caste without it being based on high/low as it as was back inthe day, and as it should be now, i think this will bring back that strong community.

I really liked his opinion as I never saw things from that angle, which is why I primarily emphasize unity and prem bhaav among Sikhs, followed by inter-marriages among various backgrounds

There are other ways of bringing the Sikhs together than through marriage.

it reminds me of a conversation :

Ali G (to the Catholic Priest) : " So, as a gesture of bringing us all together, would you marry her (and points to the woman sitting next to the Priest,)

Priest: " No, Im a Catholic priest and we do not marry, but there are other ways of bringing humanity together than through marriage."

Ali G : " But what if she was a bit fitter...?"

[chatanga]

In Sahib Sri Dasam Granth Ji, Guru Ji tells of the nishani of kalyug and that the NehKalank Avtar is coming , and he says about the different varans marrying each other.

ਚਲੀ ਪਾਪ ਕੀ ਜਗਤ ਕਹਾਨੀ ॥ ਭਾਜਾ ਧਰਮ ਛਾਡ ਰਜਧਾਨੀ ॥ ਭਿੰਨ ਭਿੰਨ ਘਰ ਘਰ ਮਤ ਚਲਾ ॥ ਯਾ ਤੇ ਧਰਮ ਭਰਮ ਉਡ ਟਲਾ ॥੧੪॥

The story of sin will become prevalent in the whole world and the dharma will flee from the hearts of the people; there will be different beliefs in homes which cause the dharma and love to fly away.14.

ਏਕ ਏਕ ਮਤ ਐਸਉ ਚੈਹੈ ॥ ਜਾਤੇ ਸਕਲ ਸੂਦ੍ਰ ਹੁਇ ਜੈਹੈ ॥ ਛਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨ ਰਹਾ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥ ਸ਼ੰਕਰ ਬਰਨ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਸਭ ਹੋਈ ॥੧੫॥

Such notions will become prevalent that all will become Shudras; there will be no Kshatriyas and Brahmins and all the subjects will become hybrid.15.

159009 ਦਸਮ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਪੰਨਾ ੧੧੩੬ ਪੰ. ੯

ਸੂਦ੍ਰ ਧਾਮ ਬਸਿ ਹੈਂ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨੀ ॥ ਬਈਸ ਨਾਰ ਹੋਇ ਹੈ ਛੱਤ੍ਰਨੀ ॥ ਬਸਿ ਹੈ ਛੱਤ੍ਰ ਧਾਮ ਬੈਸਾਨੀ ॥ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨ ਗ੍ਰਹਿ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਸੂਦ੍ਰਾਨੀ ॥੧੬॥

The Brahmin-women will live with Shudras; the Vaishya-women will reside in the homes of Kshatriyas and the Kshatriya-women in the homes of Vaishyas; the Shudra-women will be in the homes of Brahmins.16.

[chatanga]

sorry about the above post, but the editor function is not working.

here is the link :

http://searchgurbani.com/dasam_granth/page/1136

[Mehtab Singh]

I just started another topic about this chatanga veer. You stated what is going to happen in the future, I have asked about the past. Please post your much awaited insights over there. From the little that I know, I feel Guru Sahib re-defined "Brahmin", "Musalmaan", etc. several terms, stating what is a true Brahmin and true Muslim. Gurbani is agaadh bodh, however since you definitely know much more than me, please do provide your precious inputs in the other thread. I am curious to learn.

[chatanga]

I just started another topic about this chatanga veer. You stated what is going to happen in the future, I have asked about the past. Please post your much awaited insights over there. From the little that I know, I feel Guru Sahib re-defined "Brahmin", "Musalmaan", etc. several terms, stating what is a true Brahmin and true Muslim. Gurbani is agaadh bodh, however since you definitely know much more than me, please do provide your precious inputs in the other thread. I am curious to learn.

I love you man!

[Mehtab Singh]

The feeling is mutual.