confused

[VanHelsingh]

The Panj Pyare from who Harpreet took Amrit can't be blamed if she wasn't strong enough within herself, surely? That just seems like a complete insult to the Panj Pyare! It completely negates the need for taking responsibility for your own actions when a mistake is made. If this belief becomes mainstream then you'll have young Singhs and Singhnis exclaiming "Oh, the Panj Pyareh that administered Amrit to me had low kamai so that's why I messed up". That's a very, very dangerous precedent to set.

Educate me, bro, on how this concept works. It's the first time I've encountered such a theory, although I can trace the logic behind it I'm rather surprised at your insistence at it being the root reason the OP did wrong.

I'm not saying you're wrong. You're clearly blessed with immense knowledge; shower some on us mortals! :biggrin2:

[Consciousness]

The Panj Pyare from who Harpreet took Amrit can't be blamed if she wasn't strong enough within herself, surely? That just seems like a complete insult to the Panj Pyare! It completely negates the need for taking responsibility for your own actions when a mistake is made. If this belief becomes mainstream then you'll have young Singhs and Singhnis exclaiming "Oh, the Panj Pyareh that administered Amrit to me had low kamai so that's why I messed up". That's a very, very dangerous precedent to set.

Educate me, bro, on how this concept works. It's the first time I've encountered such a theory, although I can trace the logic behind it I'm rather surprised at your insistence at it being the root reason the OP did wrong.

I'm not saying you're wrong. You're clearly blessed with immense knowledge; shower some on us mortals! :biggrin2:

Sorry veer ji I believe the latter notion of it being the punj pyarea's fault because it is their duty to teach jagaso's naam drir of how to repeat the gurmantar and atam gian of shabad. Therefore the punj pyarea themselves should have realised God themselves otherwise they are not fit to be the punj pyarea.

Let's look at this analogy an untrained pilot teacher teaches his students on how to fly a plane but when the students themselves 'graduate' and now 'think' they are ready to fly the plane however on their first real flight they make mistakes and kill the passengers.

In the same way the untrained pilot can be seen as the punj pyarea if the punj pyarea have not themselves realised the lord they are still 'untrained' and obviously the people who take amrit will make mistakes (crashing the plane) because of not knowing the truth (because they never actually learnt how to fly a real plane) of naam drir and atam gian.

So are the students really to blame? No because they have been fooled however everyone else (sangat) blames them because they were the ones who crashed the plane (fell into a sexual relationship as harpreet did).

Harpreet has been unfortunate and just like the students of the untrained pilot they have every right to blame the pilot (of course if they have survived the crash lol).

Like I said I believe if amrit was CORRECT then just like Bhai Joga singh; the guru would protect his students from any bajjar kurehits.

[Sherdil]

Consciousness ji, your student pilot analogy is correct.

My point is that I have never come across Panj who teach people before they take Amrit. That being said, the person receiving Amrit is not absolved from responsibility.

Receiving Amrit should be like a graduation ceremony. There should be a method to assess a candidate's readiness, before they are allowed to take Amrit. Perhaps the Panj could open a random page in gurbani, and ask the candidate to explain the meaning of a particular shabad. This will produce more knowledgeable amritdharis that will be a better example for other Sikhs. It will also reduce the incidence of amritdharis "breaking" their Amrit.

On the point of amrit erasing past sins, I don't think we are going to see eye-to-eye.

[Consciousness]

Consciousness ji, your student pilot analogy is correct.

My point is that I have never come across Panj who teach people before they take Amrit. That being said, the person receiving Amrit is not absolved from responsibility.

Receiving Amrit should be like a graduation ceremony. There should be a method to assess a candidate's readiness, before they are allowed to take Amrit. Perhaps the Panj could open a random page in gurbani, and ask the candidate to explain the meaning of a particular shabad. This will produce more knowledgeable amritdharis that will be a better example for other Sikhs. It will also reduce the incidence of amritdharis "breaking" their Amrit.

On the point of amrit erasing past sins, I don't think we are going to see eye-to-eye.

Veer ji not before the amrit but during the amrit ceremony once the gurmantar and mool mantar are given - this method of atamgian has been forgotten. 'MAN TU JOTH SAROOP HAI APNA MOOL PACHAN' - this gyan needs to be given and the mool of who you are needs to be shown to the jagasoo. Of course the person will try hard not commit a bajjar krehit and follow responsibility but like I said if the amrit is given correctly then Maharaj will ALWAYS protect his students from any bajjar kurehit - just like bhai joga singh.

Well assessing can only be done by punj pyarea who have realised God - how can someone help someone who hasn't helped themselves??

[N30S1NGH]

Consciousness veer,

Whilst your understanding of panj pyares is pretty much correct based on events of very first amrit sanchar of panj giving their head (tan, mann/dhan) first than expecting the same in return from students and the fact that is all panj pyares were bhramgyanis but the reality is fast fwd to current times- you be extremely lucky if you find one of panj pyares who is bhramgyani let alone all of five. So whether you like it or not by looking at current times....We just need to accept panj pyares ceremony as symbolism on practical by bringing guru sahib as a witness and simply take the amrit instead of critizing the panj pyares. They are guru roop and guru maharaj as he wishes make the amrit sanchar divine based on his will/hakum give panj pyares bhramgyan di datt so students can taste power of amrit just it was like 1699.

Although events surrounding 1699 amrit sanchar is highly divine in nature, it has great amount of symbolism associated with it..thats what we go by... If you must take it literally the event frame by frame per second- then i don't see you or anyone else for that matter- giving their head physically- chop chop infront of sri guru granth sahib and mimic the whole event...nobody is stopping us...call is already made..!!

Symbolism of amrit ceremony- students receiving amrit was never meant to be some "mechanical/robotic process" where one gets bhramgyan like car gets assembled in assembly line and come out as "knight rider"...again its not assembly line processs where you wait in line and take amrit- have bhramgyan. Original panj pyares were part of divine, whole event was divine in nature- it was khalsa formal intiation- it had to be divine.

Fast fwd to today, while acknowledging miracles surrounding the events around 1699. Khalsa panth follows great amount of symbolism/maryada surrounding 1699- amrit sanchar- where one gets phsyical intiation (sanaskar amrit ) and then shabad gurmantar/mool mantar call it naam amrit or shabad/mantar whatever you wish.. so that one can meditate on shabad gurmantar and attached their surti(intituation) with shabad to get attune to the naam amrit and eventually if his will get bhramgyan amrit in a long journey...instead of mimicking frame by frame/second by second event of 1699- first khalsa amrit sanchar.

[Consciousness]

Consciousness veer,

Whilst your understanding of panj pyares is pretty much correct based on events of very first amrit sanchar of panj giving their head (tan, mann/dhan) first than expecting the same in return from students and the fact that is all panj pyares were bhramgyanis but the reality is fast fwd to current times- you be extremely lucky if you find one of panj pyares who is bhramgyani let alone all of five. So whether you like it or not by looking at current times....We just need to accept panj pyares ceremony as symbolism on practical by bringing guru sahib as a witness and simply take the amrit instead of critizing the panj pyares. They are guru roop and guru maharaj as he wishes make the amrit sanchar divine based on his will/hakum give panj pyares bhramgyan di datt so students can taste power of amrit just it was like 1699.

Although events surrounding 1699 amrit sanchar is highly divine in nature, it has great amount of symbolism associated with it..thats what we go by... If you must take it literally the event frame by frame per second- then i don't see you or anyone else for that matter- giving their head physically- chop chop infront of sri guru granth sahib and mimic the whole event...nobody is stopping us...call is already made..!!

Symbolism of amrit ceremony- students receiving amrit was never meant to be some "mechanical/robotic process" where one gets bhramgyan like car gets assembled in assembly line and come out as "knight rider"...again its not assembly line processs where you wait in line and take amrit- have bhramgyan. Original panj pyares were part of divine, whole event was divine in nature- it was khalsa formal intiation- it had to be divine.

Fast fwd to today, while acknowledging miracles surrounding the events around 1699. Khalsa panth follows great amount of symbolism/maryada surrounding 1699- amrit sanchar- where one gets phsyical intiation (sanaskar amrit ) and then shabad gurmantar/mool mantar call it naam amrit or shabad/mantar whatever you wish.. so that one can meditate on shabad gurmantar and attached their surti(intituation) with shabad to get attune to the naam amrit and eventually if his will get bhramgyan amrit in a long journey...instead of mimicking frame by frame/second by second event of 1699- first khalsa amrit sanchar.

I agree with what you say. Now MOST amrit ceremonies are not the same as they were in 1699 since the punj pyarea back then became immortal and perfect. But I believe this still can happen if all the punj pyarea get brahmgian.

If the punj pyarea like you say are not perfect (not having brahmgian etc) then how can someone expect the people who take amrit not to falter?? I believe it is unfair on harpreet to judge her because of what I have written above.

'Symbolism of amrit ceremony- students receiving amrit was never meant to be some "mechanical/robotic process" where one gets bhramgyan like car gets assembled in assembly line and come out as "knight rider"...again its not assembly line processs where you wait in line and take amrit- have bhramgyan. Original panj pyares were part of divine, whole event was divine in nature- it was khalsa formal intiation- it had to be divine.'

I disagree because the original punj pyarea did get this and saying it is not meant to happen now is hypocritical - of course it is the word amrit is to make someone immortal if you come out of an amrit sanchaar ceremony still wondering why 'you' have not become deathless, immortal, fearless, omnipresent then the amrit sanchaar was NOT valid.

Veer ji it can't all be symbolism the amrit sanchaar even today must have the same power as it did before otherwise could we even call it amrit if not the same?

[immortal57]

I agree with what you say. Now MOST amrit ceremonies are not the same as they were in 1699 since the punj pyarea back then became immortal and perfect. But I believe this still can happen if all the punj pyarea get brahmgian.

If the punj pyarea like you say are not perfect (not having brahmgian etc) then how can someone expect the people who take amrit not to falter?? I believe it is unfair on harpreet to judge her because of what I have written above.

'Symbolism of amrit ceremony- students receiving amrit was never meant to be some "mechanical/robotic process" where one gets bhramgyan like car gets assembled in assembly line and come out as "knight rider"...again its not assembly line processs where you wait in line and take amrit- have bhramgyan. Original panj pyares were part of divine, whole event was divine in nature- it was khalsa formal intiation- it had to be divine.'

I disagree because the original punj pyarea did get this and saying it is not meant to happen now is hypocritical - of course it is the word amrit is to make someone immortal if you come out of an amrit sanchaar ceremony still wondering why 'you' have not become deathless, immortal, fearless, omnipresent then the amrit sanchaar was NOT valid.

Veer ji it can't all be symbolism the amrit sanchaar even today must have the same power as it did before otherwise could we even call it amrit if not the same?

Where do u draw the line with this theory of yours?

If someone lies, is that because one of their panj told a lie 33 years ago?

Is every sin we commit somehow linked to weaknesses of the panj pyare?

We ourselves are responsible for the sins we commit.

There are examples of people i know who have taken amrit where the panj pyare were well know gursikhs with a veri high avastha but those same people have fallen and had to take pesh

However great the panj pyare are, the abhilakee has to be willing to put in their full effort to follow the path of gurmat.

I actually chuckled when i read that the blame of anybody commiting a kurehit should lie with the panj pyare.

[Consciousness]

Where do u draw the line with this theory of yours?

If someone lies, is that because one of their panj told a lie 33 years ago?

Is every sin we commit somehow linked to weaknesses of the panj pyare?

We ourselves are responsible for the sins we commit.

There are examples of people i know who have taken amrit where the panj pyare were well know gursikhs with a veri high avastha but those same people have fallen and had to take pesh

However great the panj pyare are, the abhilakee has to be willing to put in their full effort to follow the path of gurmat.

I actually chuckled when i read that the blame of anybody commiting a kurehit should lie with the panj pyare.

This only applies to bajjar kurehits as these were the rules administered my guru sahib at the amrit sanchaar and if an jagasoo tries not to commit them then guru ji will stop them from a bajjar kurehit- how do you know they had a high avasta you have some sort of avasta meter? Of course the individual must put in effort not to commit a bajjar kurehit but if by chance they are ever about to commit a bajjar kurehit then guru ji will stop them like bhai joga singh. I actually chuckled when everyone was blaming harpreet

[N30S1NGH]

Veer ji not before the amrit but during the amrit ceremony once the gurmantar and mool mantar are given - this method of atamgian has been forgotten. 'MAN TU JOTH SAROOP HAI APNA MOOL PACHAN' - this gyan needs to be given and the mool of who you are needs to be shown to the jagasoo

Do you have any historical reference for method of atamgian was also given in amrit sanchar? I know atam gyan updesh/naam updesh was given by panj pyares mukhi- bhai dya singh ji in later event to sangat in form of katha as listed in soraj parkash granth..but do you have historical reference of- method of atamgyan was also given at amrit sanchar?

[Consciousness]

Do you have any historical reference for method of atamgian was also given in amrit sanchar? I know atam gyan updesh/naam updesh was given by panj pyares mukhi- bhai dya singh ji in later event to sangat in form of katha as listed in soraj parkash granth..but do you have historical reference of- method of atamgyan was also given at amrit sanchar?

Well it is clear that bhai daya singh had atam gian (as noted in soraj prakash) and to become immortal (amritdhari in a literal sense) he must of received this during the amrit sanchaar ceremony as well as the other four pyarea even though it is not noted for them it doesn't mean they didn't have atam gian. If they received atam gian at a later date other than the amrit ceremony then that would mean they were not 1 with the lord after taking amrit and since amrit means immortal then that would negate it's literal meaning if you get what I mean. It is clear that all bhagats had atam gian as well as you can see from gurbani.

Some people only are taught the gurmantar (as in MOST amrit sanchaar ceremonies today) but never receive atam gian and without it they are bound and not liberated (gurmat mukhti).