Why does the soul suffer for the sins of the mind?

[Sherdil]

This question was posed to me. I thought it was a good one.

If sins are manifested in the mind, then why is the soul made to suffer?

We cannot remember our past lives, but our soul wanders in life and death. This isn't fair to the soul.

If mukti can be achieved in this life, then what more awaits us after death?

If mukti can be achieved in this life, then what is the role of a soul, if it is still trapped in the body?

[HKaur16]

Actually I also have this question.

[N30S1NGH]

Human being is looking wrong place for happiness. Hence, the suffering. Just like deer walking on a desert see mirage, think its water and keep looking for water in mirage and die out of thirst as it was looking in the wrong place to begin with.

This world way it appears it just illusion as sri guru tegh bahudar says in shalok mahalla nuavan. Our real self and essence is supreme soul but in illusion we think we are body which is made out of 5 elements, our mind is affected by kam, krodh, moh, lob, ahankar so we suffer. It's not just about purifying the mind either, its about going back to mind's root (mool) as Sri guru maharaj says - Man tu jot saroop hai apna mool painchain- O mind, you real essence/root is jot saroop(atma-paratma God), recnognize yourself!!

Soul does not suffer but rather suffering is only in mind because of ego/illusion, after we die- its astral mind along with our subtle body faces the consequences or suffers not the soul itself. This whole idea of individualistic soul - jiv atma is only there in the mind which is effected by illusion or ego, once mind/intuition/surti understands, perceive and realize its root- joti saroop- atma paratma- it rises above from perception that - he is individualistic soul - jiv atma..that the real self was never jev atma to begin with... its just perceived in illusion that way- jiv atma, that our real self always been Atma-Paratma which is Vahiguroo- Supreme blissful/consciousness

Once our intuition mind/surti is attached with supreme soul(atma-paratma) then there is no suffering. There is suffering to body but our intuitation/mind attached with the root- essence where it all began- Supreme Soul, there is no suffering in our own real self- atma-paratma. Only - sat chit anand..!!

Human being have three states:

1. Jagrath Avasthas- This state is awakened state.

2. Suapoun Avastha- This state is dream state

3. Sukhopat Avastha- This state is deep sleep state, where there is no suffering or any pain, no knowledge just thoughtless deep sleep state- mind stays in the root. Hence, why after being awakened from deep sleep state, one says- i had very good sleep- deep sleep.

Englighten state without any suffering or pain is kind of like - thoughtless deep sleep state. However, major difference in englighten state that its thoughtless "Awareness" state and there is no risk of falling to normal state. Englighten being always stays in - thoughtless awareness state in deep meditation. Although englighten being while alive- have dual consciouness - one for worldy activity and other- thoughtless meditation. He/she is not attached with worldy activity, he is nirlaip(free) from illusion. His/her consciouness is advait(non dual). He/she consider everyone as god- sabh gobind hai sabh gobind hai. He expereince universal love fully advait(non duality- god is everywhere, god is in everyone including me) including this illusion world as supreme soul/god itself have created this play or matrix and people who realize its illusion or break the matrix able to see- world is just an thought just like wave(thought) coming out from the ocean for sometime it appears different or comes out but then it merges back in the ocean. World which it appears is just an wave in the ocean current, real essence of world is ocean as no matter how big wave is, it merges back in the ocean.

Give her this atam updesh by sant isher singh ji rara sahib wale :

Self Percept (Atam Updesh)

Why are you so engrossed in worries? Why are you afraid of some one? Who may kill you? The soul is immortal; it neither dies nor takes birth.

The present is here and now, the past is irrecoverable and the future will be good. Don't fret over the past and don't be worried about the future. The present is going on.

Why do you cry? What did you lose? When you were born, what did you bring along, which has been lost? What did you produce which has been perished? It is here that you gained and it is here that you lose. The man comes to; and goes from world, empty handed.

What you own today was not yours yesterday and will not be yours tomorrow. It does not and will not belong to anyone. You consider it your own and rejoice. This happiness of possession leads you to utter grief.

Yours is this world. Start from where you feel to; stay where you desire and wind up where you want to. It has no beginning and no end. You don't fear anyone, but yourself. You are the fright and also the frightened.

Change is the truth of life. What you consider as death is life in reality. In a moment a multi-millionaire is turned pauper. Give up the feeling of possession, great & the mean; differentiation of friend & foe. Then all is yours and you for everyone. Your corporeal being is a product of air, water and fire and it merges into the same leaving behind neither blood nor bones. Still yours existence remains the same. Then ponder over what you are.

Wake up! and become the eternal sons of the Almighty. You are the great and unique manifestation of Nature's power. All the divine powers are possessed by you, like a tree hidden in the seed.

In fact you don't fear anybody; you don't have any worry, suspicion, pain or grief. You are His dear ones. Surrender yourself completely to Him.

Always, remember the "Waheguru" (God) to achieve salvation. Let your life be guided by the saying "Whatever God wills, is good". Be content with the will of God. Remember Him both in pleasure & pain.

Compiled by His Holiness Sant Isher Singh Ji Maharaj

[Wingz23]

This question was posed to me. I thought it was a good one.

If sins are manifested in the mind, then why is the soul made to suffer?

We cannot remember our past lives, but our soul wanders in life and death. This isn't fair to the soul.

If mukti can be achieved in this life, then what more awaits us after death?

If mukti can be achieved in this life, then what is the role of a soul, if it is still trapped in the body?

LOVE ACAPELLA JATHA

[N30S1NGH]

So coming back to your original questions to make it clear:

If sins are manifested in the mind, then why is the soul made to suffer?

As stated earlier, soul is not made to suffer, its only perceived that way in illusion but in fact - soul is our real self- what's made to suffer because of karams is antish karan/astral projection or astral body- made of (effected mind, consciousness/sub consciousness/intellect/ ahankar- ego), everything is stored there. Soul is supreme consciousness- atma-paratma/Vahiguroo, is giving nourishment to all as a witness/shakshi...thats the key because Soul is supreme consciousness that witness it all - its not some robotic/mechanical process.

We cannot remember our past lives, but our soul wanders in life and death. This isn't fair to the soul.

Soul does not wander in life and death as its timeless, but what suffers from life and death is astral projection and astral body also called- sukhsam sirar/ antish karan made (effected mind, consciousness/sub consciousness/intellect/ ahankar- ego), everything is stored there.

If mukti can be achieved in this life, then what more awaits us after death?

Depending what kind of mukhti? There are four types of sargun mukhti listed in gurbani. Actual Sikh goal is not four types sargun mukhti but rather fifth which is kaival mukhti which is nirgun - complete immersion with Vahiguroo- loosing yourself completely in Vahiguroo ji. Listen to sant gurbachan singh bhindranwale katha on the gurbani tuk below:

chaar mukath chaarai sidhh mil kai dhooleh prabh kee saran pariou ||

I have obtained the four kinds of liberation, and the four miraculous spiritual powers, in the Sanctuary of God, my Husband Lord.

mukath bhaeiou chouhoo(n) jug jaaniou jas keerath maathhai shhathra dhhariou ||1||

I am liberated, and famous throughout the four ages; the canopy of praise and fame waves over my head. ||1|| Ang- 1105

1.Salokya Mukhti- in which the devotee gains a place in the realm of your ishatdev or attainment of the salok given by our ishatdev as you mentioned.

2. Sarupya Mukhti – in which devotee obtains heaven and same bodily qualities as Sargun Vahiguroo (avtar , isher or deity roop)

3. Samipya Mukhti- leads not only to divine virtues but a god (isher/sargun) god like form.

4. Saujya mukhti- There is unity through immersion without losing one's own identity .

If mukti can be achieved in this life, then what is the role of a soul, if it is still trapped in the body?

I think author of this questions seems to confuse astral body with soul. Soul itself is not trapped in body, its in the body but its not confined as soul is atma-paratma - supreme consciousness giving nourishment/chaitanta to all as a witness/shakshi. Soul can be accessed in tenth door (energy chakra) in human body and hirda - gyan-heart lotus in human body.

Just an analogy not perfect analogy but still will clarify further- don't take it literally- just like air gives nourishment/movement to leaf hence its moving, consider air as soul -moving leaf being physical body/astral body of an human being. Author seems to confuse soul with leaf rather than air giving movement to moving leaf.

[luckysingh99]

Those are some marvellous explanations N30SINGH ji !!!

I have thought about these concepts and explanations quite a lot due to some certain personal experiences.

You defined the soul and consciousness quite well, although I somehow concluded that it was more of the 'Consciousness'

I think that the 'consciousness' does Not itslf live in 'time' as only our physical sareer does.

Therefore this consciousness is ALWAYS in the 'NOW' and because of that and no concept of time, is one reason why we don't remember past or previous sareers.See the sareer now and here and our brain is what has memory. We are conditioned to know what we know ie. Knowledge, because we have memory in the brain which instructs the mind.- ALL part of the huge maya illusion

.

The consciousness is kind of detached away form the mind and brain or it wants to be away and is not influenced by those same memories. - Because the consciousness doesn't have these memories, like I said it lives in the NOW.

BUT- a bi BUT, is that the consciousness KNOWS much more than we actually think. It doesn't know these things from acquired learning and memory like our sareer dos, but it JUST KNOWS about the Lord and the real Truth outside of the ILLUSION.

It's all very very interesting once you get your head around it. Did you get then above info from some useful references OR is it your own conclusion from a mixture of different references.

Waheguru

[N30S1NGH]

It's from a mixture of different references from gurbani, mahapursh sangat, listening to mahapursh bachans, books, gurbani katha and so on.

Actually vahiguroo/soul cannot be explained fully as this matter of realization and its attribute less at the same time full of attributes but soul/vahiguroo is supreme consciousness supreme blissful and supreme truth - Ikongkar Sati(Truth) Gur(Consciouness) Parsad(Blissful). Guru itself in spiritual sense means consciousness- guru-chaitan/parkash.

Enjoy this amazing shabad-

As beginner to sikh spirituality starts off with:

Aad Gur E Nameh - Guru Nanak Dev Ji Ko Namaskar

Jugad Gur E Nameh- Guru Angad Dev Ji Ko Namaskar

Satgur E Nameh - Sri Guru Amar Das Ji Ko Namaskar.

Sri Gurdev E Nameh - finally my present gurdev- Sri Guru Ram Das Ji Ko Namaskar. Note - Sri indicates one being around maya and controlling the maya.

Then slowly after human consciousness perception/intuition rises above from sargun roop towards nirgun- supreme consciouness, he/she perceived the same shabad as :

Aad Gure Nameh

Jugad Gure Nameh

Satgure Nameh

Sri Gurdev Nameh

I bow to the guiding consciousness that takes us to realisation.

I bow to wisdom througout the ages.

I bow to True wisdom.

I bow to the great unseen Wisdom.

Both interpretation/perception of the shabad is correct as they are both perceived by human consciousness at different level- it starts off with sargun and it ends at ekta of sargun with nirgun..!!!!!!!

[Consciousness]

4. Saujya mukhti- There is unity through immersion without losing one's own identity .

Identity In Sackhand - Why It Cannot Be

I disagree on the identity part because for identity to be permanent (sat) it has to be waheguru himself or the mukhti you described is not the highest (NOT GURMAT MUKHTI). Please read the article I wrote on sachkand and why identity can't be permanent.

There are many disadvantages (limiting factors) if people infer that sackhand is a place where one goes to with identity intact then the (jeev or sukhsham sareer) will be limited in size unless they totally occupy everything and others there would be consumed/crowded by each other, limited power etc they are bound by location and are NOT omnipresent (as it is made out to be the earth is not sachkand but a separate khand). 'They' are not limitless this implies a disadvantage compared to what I understand and what gurmat believes which is that sackhand is everything no limits - omnipotent and omnipresent - Only God is and NO OTHER.

Only truth (sackhand) people saying that sachkand is some sort of place do not know the infinite potential of gurmat naam. For (God) sachkand (OBJECTIVE TRUTH) to be a place (which it is not) it must be acknowledged by an individual (I) e.g. I am seeing that floating gurdwara in sachkand. There has to be duality between the perceiver and the object.' Gurbani is against dual consciousness please do a search on ‘durmat’.

Essentially in any place where 'one’s' attentive consciousness is still stuck in form 'name and shape' is an illusion (maya). How will one tell the difference between themselves and God? Also the false notion of identity is kept of the person in sachkand then surely they still would have a mind and we are all know a mind is a limited instrument in itself I.E you can only have one thought at one time and have a limited capacity of knowledge. Also with any name and form it is bound by time, which we all know waheguru cannot be (akaal moorat) because if any action that occurs in sachkand (place) will occur in apperceived time i.e there would be a memory of past, present actions because if there were no actions in that place then sackhand would have no action, no one speaking etc. This identity is only a burden and a disadvantage.

Also the fear of losing consciousness is downfall amongst seekers – they don’t want identity to be gone and want to remain eternally to experience the ‘bliss’. But this is inaccurate and involves blind faith on a false notion of consciousness being permanent. Scientifically or with veechar one needs to look into how the consciousness arouse. For consciousness to be permanent it has to be eternal and remain 24/7 throughout every moment/second. We know this can be proved wrong because it does not remain as in swoon/ unconscious/ deep sleep or in subconscious there is NO consciousness and the world is NOT. So then we can argue that if consciousness itself is temporary and the same consciousness (person) goes to sachkand then how can we have a full experience of sackhand when our own identity is our downfall for ever lasting experience.

Beyond this who remains to enjoy the anand.... Like in deep sleep there is no consciousness and some people are trying to make there consciousness permanent thinking that it is eternal when in deep sleep and even subconsciously it is not. Letting the unconscious and subconscious (consciousness is a slave to the subconscious) take over means a death an annilation of experience. Really we are always dead it is the conscious part of the brain (reaction between neurotransmitters), which only comes temporarily that gives the inference of individuality and doership - that I exist and I WILL GO SACKHAND. It's all utter rubbish there is no one to go sachkand as there is only sachkand.

People try to make the I (consciousness) eternal so 'they' can experience the anand and go sachkand. When in reality 'they' are an illusion – and the illusion is trying to escape the illusion – what a paradox! Basically no one wants to die but only dying is eternal!!!

Another factor is that the mind is not permanent and it is made from experiences that one gets during their lifetime and something that is not eternal cannot have a permanent identity here after – to prove this point a blind person from birth has no visual thoughts throughout their life he/she just apperceives darkness. While a deaf person from birth can see form and name but has never heard a sound. So this shows that one’s identity are made from this lifetimes experiences. So the mind/memory/ ego are learnt traits that were picked up from the surroundings by the five senses. While the truth (Sachkand) exists prior to the learning period. So since the mind (where identity is made) is temporary it cannot ‘go’ to sachkand.

Furthermore some people proclaim that the suksham sareer (mental/astral body) is what is permanent and the sukhsham sareer is the identity of a person with kesh (hair) and this identity is taken to sackhand but this sounds rather presumptuous as Gurbani mentions reincarnation and then was the same sukhsham sareer in a monkey or an ant? Also say one person obtains the human body and but does not realise the Lord and then says he is born again as another human body, which sukhsham sareer has he got and which will enter sachkand? If the sukhsham sareer enters sachkand it must be changeless and permanent and it just doesn’t make sense if the above theory is believed. That would make one particular astral/human identity as a truth, which I believe is subject to guess work, fantasy and opens a doorway to a myriad of questions that sprout from a false believe.

Also since God/sachkand resides in ALL even in an agyani (ignorant devoid of naam/Ignorant of God being their true mool) then when kirpa is done the same changeless, permanent avasta must have already been present in the ignorant but missed or ignored, which the concept of non-identity supports while if the perception changed into another realm/place (mistaken as sachkand) then this is a change in ‘reality’, which cannot be correct as God is aadh sach, jugaad sach etc he is always true and ones underlying root prior to perception, learning, inference, apperception and even consciousness must have been true – while sackhand being a place and one retaining identity does not support hence this theory is subject to error.

Carrying on with a false pretence of identity remaining then one would further make an assumption that Guru and God are separate. Some people to support this thinking say they are not separate but Guru ji is inside of waheguru and his identity is but is not noticeable to the naked eye. This statement is laughable for any identity to remain the perceiver must have a permanent consciousness and we have already discussed above that this is not possible. Really Guru/Satguru is another word for God (a synonym not a similarity). Some further state that when Waheguru created creation, before it He created Satguru - Waheguru appointed/created Satguru before creating the entire creation. This is false because then there is a notion of two (duality). Mistake is being made between waheguru’s nirgun and sargun aspect making them independently separate – when they are really one and the same and are dependent on each other.

Hopefully this write-up has been helpful to prove that identity of one is not and since there is no identity then God/sachkand cannot be place that has independent people in it. However if one still wants it to be a place or wants to believe in permanent identity of individual then carry on doing so as you’ll be seriously disappointed. All in all having an identity is only a limitation and this would make sachkand limited in experience when in reality Gurmat sidhant is much greater than this make belief (manmat) view of sackhand.

[N30S1NGH]

Consciousness veer,

you are right there for four types of mukhti are not gurmat mukhti. That's why i mentioned earlier. Gurmat only beleives in kaival mukhti.

There are four types of sargun mukhti listed in gurbani. Actual Sikh goal is *NOT* four types sargun mukhti but rather fifth which is kaival mukhti which is nirgun - complete immersion with Vahiguroo- loosing yourself completely in Vahiguroo ji. Listen to sant gurbachan singh bhindranwale katha on the gurbani tuk below:

chaar mukath chaarai sidhh mil kai dhooleh prabh kee saran pariou ||

I have obtained the four kinds of liberation, and the four miraculous spiritual powers, in the Sanctuary of God, my Husband Lord.

mukath bhaeiou chouhoo(n) jug jaaniou jas keerath maathhai shhathra dhhariou ||1||

I am liberated, and famous throughout the four ages; the canopy of praise and fame waves over my head. ||1|| Ang- 1105

1.Salokya Mukhti- in which the devotee gains a place in the realm of your ishatdev or attainment of the salok given by our ishatdev as you mentioned.

2. Sarupya Mukhti – in which devotee obtains heaven and same bodily qualities as Sargun Vahiguroo (avtar , isher or deity roop)

3. Samipya Mukhti- leads not only to divine virtues but a god (isher/sargun) god like form.

4. Saujya mukhti- There is unity through immersion without losing one's own identity .

[Consciousness]

Consciousness veer,

you are right there for four types of mukhti are not gurmat mukhti. That's why i mentioned earlier. Gurmat only beleives in kaival mukhti/gurmat mukhti-

Exactly my point but by obtaining gurmat mukhti you get everything even those mukhtis, also all the wealth, fame, powers (9 nidhs and 18 sidhis) in the world becomes yours because when you lose identity who remains?

ONLY God (all manifest and the non manifest) and since he is the owner of everything and every power then he has everything. Since he is the only truth and who you are is already him then of course everything is yours. Proving those panktis you posted earlier in this manner and type of gurmat sidhant.

As long as you remain as a person/ego you will always be begging what a miserable life!