Scottish independence movement

[West London Singh]

I'll give you 3 words that should be at the heart of all Sikh tactics, rebuttals, correspondence, arguments etc for the next year and a half at least :

Scotland

Scotland

Scotland

With the Prime Minister David Cameron announcing the independence referendum for Scotland next year, every time the Indian media spins stories about us being 'extremists', 'terrorists' and 'militants' we need to ask the world what the difference is between Sikhs and the Scots. The Scottish referendum is gonna dominate news across the world continously for the next year and is already being seen as a template for the Catalonians in Spain and the Welsh among others. Thankfully, the Scottish Sikhs already have gotten the public support of the independence leader Alex Salmon. We need to articulate to the world why, when it comes to basic human rights, some humans are considered more human than others.

• When Sikhs desire independence they are evil extremists - When Scots desire independence they are normal people simply desiring independence
  
• When Sikh leaders talk about independence they are arrested, charged and tortured - Scottish independence leaders are given seats in Parliament.
  
• If a Sikh mentions independence he is silenced - The Scots that desire independence are given free, equal and balanced TV airtime during elections so that democracy can take its course.
  

Think tank objective : Knowing in advance how the Scottish issue is gonna dominate international news, including in India, how can we use it to our advantage ?

[Mehtab Singh]

Thanks WLS, sounds like a great start. First, let us jot down the points on which the relationship of Britain and India stands. Ok so let me guess, one must be economy and trade, not too sure about any arms deals, please add whatever else it is as you guys obviously would have a better idea. Second, in view of the fact that Britain is basically going to "liberate" Scotland, the same question needs to be asked about Sikhs. Now let me try to play the game from their end as well. Their first response will be that while Scots WANT independence, "Sikhs" in India are "happy", so that is where we highlight 1984. We claim that Sikhs were never given an opportunity that closely comes to any referendum (correct me if I am wrong here please) as the Scots were given.

Please continue with more points. Let me actually move this to a separate thread.

[Mehtab Singh]

Ok, moving posts from http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/68995-sikhsangat-think-tank/ to this one.

[dalsingh101]

^^

The Scots example is very interesting.

It is a 'model' nationalist movement to my mind. Notice the distinct differences between Scottish and English nationalism. So far we've had no rabid, angry, violent movement in Scotland, immigrants aren't getting vilified, no one is getting 'bashed' and no skinhead types are running amok. However, when the English get nationalistic - hate-filled, tattooed 'Angry-Saxon' cavemen types and their suite and booted leaders (like Griffin or Enoch in the past) act and speak in such a vile and unpleasant way that any decent people understandably distance themselves from the movement.

There are important lessons in that for Sikhs.

[West London Singh]

^^

The Scots example is very interesting.

It is a 'model' nationalist movement to my mind. Notice the distinct differences between Scottish and English nationalism. So far we've had no rabid, angry, violent movement in Scotland, immigrants aren't getting vilified, no one is getting 'bashed' and no skinhead types are running amok. However, when the English get nationalistic - hate-filled, tattooed 'Angry-Saxon' cavemen types and their suite and booted leaders (like Griffin or Enoch in the past) act and speak in such a vile and unpleasant way that any decent people understandably distance themselves from the movement.

There are important lessons in that for Sikhs.

I think the Scottish nationalist / English nationalist paradigm is very pertinent Dal Singh. The difference between the two nationalists is that one desires freedom whilst the other represents the entity that is ruling over people that don't necessarily want to be ruled by them. Using our example , the Scots = the Sikhs - the English = the Indians. International sympathy, empathy and the winds of change are on our side. The trouble is we simply don't know how to use that international feeling to our advantage just yet. Thats where think tanks come in.

Another interesting point is how, as recent BBC polls have indicated, minority groups in Scotland such as the Sikhs are more in favour of Scottish independence than some of the native Scots themselves. This phenonema is already attracting international attention as these 2 very recent news articles about the Sikhs of Barcelona indicate. Whether its in Edinburgh, Cardiff or Barcelona the Sikhs seem to be at the forefront of independence movements. Thats why I truly believe we need to be ready to enthusiasticly grab this wind of change thats about to sweep the world. These kind of winds only come once every 30 years or so and when they come they are unstoppable. Scotland, Wales, Catalonia and Flanders are the obvious ones. We Sikhs need to be aware that the wind is coming and we need to ensure we're flying with the wind rather than being hidden away from it in a shelter.

http://www.nytimes.c...wanted=all&_r=0

http://www.indianexp...y-with/1024797/

[hsisingh]

Scottish independence will be a disaster for Scotland and will serve as an example of why an independent nation based on the borders of the Punjab will also not work.

Most Scottish people are not asking for independence. The agenda has been pushed by a small clique of nationalist politicians who want more power. It is not a grass roots movement and the referendum will fail.

[dalsingh101]

I find our own Khalistanis myopic myself - they don't seem to be able to grasp the idea (even after decades) that people generally don't really care excessively about religious sentiments, but rather issues of prosperity, prospects and lifestyle. That goes double for Panjabis who seem obsessed with this.

So all these ideas about 'international trends' and gaining support abroad are ridiculous as the truth is that the people who need convincing the most - Panjabis - of all backgrounds in India - are not given much thought at all.

[dalsingh101]

Scottish independence will be a disaster for Scotland and will serve as an example of why an independent nation based on the borders of the Punjab will also not work.

Most Scottish people are not asking for independence. The agenda has been pushed by a small clique of nationalist politicians who want more power. It is not a grass roots movement and the referendum will fail.

This is still better than our 'nationalist' lot, who start accusing other Sikh people who don't support their views as being 'non-Sikh' or other similar gibberish.

[Mehtab Singh]

Lets not forget one key player in this game, especially if it involves India. Yes, the United States of America. Now remember how Pakistan has (pretty much) gone into the other camp, that being the Chinese, and on top of that the loss of US trust towards Pakistan thanks to them finding and thereby killing Osama on Pakistani soil. This is jackpot for India in terms of stronger US support, inspite of whatever economic (and now even climatic) chaos the US itself might be going through. Furthermore, India having the image of "the world's largest democracy" is an additional bonus for them in the eyes of US. So one thing is for sure, as long as the US doesn't see a personal interest in the Sikh struggle, it will be an uphill task to gather their much needed support. I don't need to tell anyone how world politics works. As much as we may hate to admit it, its not really advisable for any country to mess with the US, unless you really have something they're scared of. China, Iran, Pakistan and even India do possess some level of nuclear capabilities. That itself is a deterrent for the US to bug them, even though they do that from time to time. But see former USSR, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, these are just some countries who tried to be a thorn in the eyes of the US, and look what the US did to them.

Before I beat around the bush and am incorrectly branded as "American boot licker" or "US devotee" lol, let me make myself clear. It can be difficult to achieve freedom without political support from other nations. As of now US may not feel empathy towards anything that they see as a harmful threat for India's economy, because it would affect their own trade with India, thus US economy as well. Khalistan will be projected by Indians as one such threat.

And yes, I agree with dalsingh also. International support minus Punjabis waking up is equal to making a joke out of those who talk about freedom.

[lsingh]

Scottish independence will be a disaster for Scotland and will serve as an example of why an independent nation based on the borders of the Punjab will also not work.

Most Scottish people are not asking for independence. The agenda has been pushed by a small clique of nationalist politicians who want more power. It is not a grass roots movement and the referendum will fail.

43% of Scots want the Scottish Parliament to make all decisions even before the SNP have started their campagn. Considering The Tories and Labour win elections in the Uk with a vote of around 40% its pretty good start. There are plenty of landlocked countries that are doing well in world, so not sure why you are so pessimistic. Punjab was independent before and the British described it as one of the most powerful counties in Asia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-19622617