Alan Watts on being God.

[MiddxSingh]

Scali ji,

"Since you are part of creator your belief creates your reality." This is an example of mass brainwashing of all is one and there is no ONE personal waheguru propaganda.

Your beliefs and thoughts may create a false reality, but the true reality works under Vaheguru's hukum. There are many tuks explaining that all happens under Vaheguru's hukum and we do not have much control. Again there are so many tuks, search them yourselves, best to do your own research then being spoon fed.

This is why gurbani makes so many pleas to vaheguru ji to save us and ignore our avguns, because reaching him is not under our control no matter how many n30singh style gyan "i am god" jugtiya you use.

[scali]

The difference between the Hindu Advait and SIkh Advait is that Sikhs per Gurbani know world is an illusion and there is Unity consciousness. Per Hindu Advait just by saying we are GOD and do nothing about it will keep us where we are. Per Sikh Advait we are in a process of creation of consciously working toward that one consciousness. The aim of that is we can than choose to live in or out of illusion at will, but for most of us it is not a choice. I google Alan Watts picture pulled up with a tabbaco pipe in his mouth. For people who read Jail chittian Bhai Randhir singh followed a so called sant for days but the day he saw him smoking a pipe. He pulled back and said even if he is GOD now I dont care.

MiddxSingh,

My belief creates my reality I see it everyday in daily life. Pay close attention to yours.

[MiddxSingh]

Dear Scali, maya is very deceptive, you may be attracting what you think of or believe or whatever but do not make the mistake that thinking will get one to waheguru. Only through the udham of naam japna with love and concentration and ultimately pooran kirpa of Guru Sahib when he is kush with our efforts (these philosphies keep forgetting guru sahib in our journey to meeting vaheguru) do we meet Vaheguru ji.

Please do not add or twist things regarding what you said about Bhai Randhir Singh. Before bhai sahib took amrit and entered the school of sikhi he followed a "sant" around for a few days because at that time bhai sahib was particularly reading alot of bhagat bani where the importance of "sant" was mentioned baar baar. Bhai Sahib refused to see him ever again because the sikh principle of not smoking was being violated by this so called sant. I don't know where you get this "even if he is GOD I dont care".

Of course bhai soon enough realised the truest and highest sant is Guru Sahib himself...

[scali]

MiddxSingh

Religion itself is a belief system. Just like you say" Udham, Naam simran with love and concentration" are part of Sikh belief system. I am saying the same thing just in different words. I am an Amritdahari believing in Namm Simran (Mool Mantar and GurMantar). That without Guru Kirpa the mergence of GOD is not possible.

[N30S1NGH]

Singh Jio, you're doing it again! Read your post again particularly last 2 lines.

Sorry Singh but this is what i have discovered based on research on sikh theology by doing sangat and listening to katha of various sampardaie mahapursh/parcharikhs, reading puratan literature etc.

because reaching him is not under our control no matter how many n30singh style gyan "i am god" jugtiya you use.

There is no need for cheap shots here..i thought we are doing vichar not playing foot ball game? Anyway, hakum/grace underpins everything in sikhi..no one is denying it...the only difference is of perception ..and even perception is under hakum.. difference is of perception..where on one hand- one awaits for grace and also uses boat(additional aids) to across the worldly ocean, aim for a goal and other perceives big portion of grace/free will intertwin with hakum- is already there by satguru nanak dev ji and that path of journey made by satguru nanak dev ji is spontaneous never ending flow of grace- sargun/nirgun- non dual ikongkar to begin with, with full faith in it they jump right in after surrendering their ego to satguru ji and without any boat in the pure ocean of anand (sab gobind hai sabh gobind hai perception) Ik jot- Ikongkar - ~ Pure existence consciousness Awareness Bliss~ ~ without any sense/perception of their own individuality or ego and loose themselves in it...both are valid and parvan in gurmat as both destroys ego..in the first case- guru sahib in animated form destroys it let the bhagats merge in them without any individuality of bhagat on its own at the final stage and second case- guru sahib in form of self- ek param jot/shabad gyan destroys subtler forms of ego after its realization....anyway deep layers of adhaytam are best experienced as no point talking about it intellectually..!!

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/72188-soul/

[N30S1NGH]

Bhramgyani does not have any dualism or perception of dualism/sense of individuality or ego even subtler forms on its own, all those are transcended/destroyed by guru sahib final kirpa if bhagat let them.

[scali]

MiddxSingh ji,

I just relevant info in jail Chittian for this post Bhai ji says about sadhu 'je hun to rab ban ke bhi aa jave tan be meri shardha tera ute nahi bhajagi"

[MiddxSingh]

lol sorry if you took it as a cheap shot. It's just you post these types of things alot which makes Vaheguru seem impersonal and sikhi less about prem towards vaheguru so I mentioned your name automatically when making that point. Apoligies.

I didn't like the way you said "regardless of getting brahmgyaan" making it out as brahmyani avastha is different from guru sahib's sikh.

Anyway to sort of finalise this discussion:

We must remember those who use or listen to their mind is labelled "manmukh" in gurbani and only those who listen to and FULLY accept gurbani are Gurmukhs. So thinking with gyan still makes you a manmukh. We need something else to connect us to Vaheguru i.e. NaamShabad and Gurbani. So I would like to add this pauri which is commonly read by many gursikhs which I think is revelant to this discussion and will hopefully show some of my points that Vaheguru is not creation (although he is secretly mearged into it) and our aim is to become fully one WITH Vaheguru but not the Vaheguru himself i.e. the drop is fully mearged in the ocean but it does not mean the drop in itself is the actual ocean (please understand this point instead of trying to twist it). Although countless tuks and shabads could be posted I think this asa di war pauri which is commonly read will be a good choice:

pauVI ] pourree || Pauree: AwpIn@Y Awpu swijE AwpIn@Y ricE nwau ] aapeenhai aap saajiou aapeenhai rachiou naao || He Himself created Himself; He Himself assumed His Name. duXI kudriq swjIAY kir Awsxu ifTo cwau ] dhuyee kudharath saajeeai kar aasan ddit(h)o chaao || Secondly, He fashioned the creation; seated within the creation, He beholds it with delight. dwqw krqw Awip qUM quis dyvih krih pswau ] dhaathaa karathaa aap thoo thus dhaevehi karehi pasaao || You Yourself are the Giver and the Creator; by Your Pleasure, You bestow Your Mercy. qUM jwxoeI sBsY dy lYsih ijMdu kvwau ] thoo jaanoee sabhasai dhae laisehi ji(n)dh kavaao || You are the Knower of all; You give life, and take it away again with a word. kir Awsxu ifTo cwau ]1] kar aasan ddit(h)o chaao ||1|| Seated within the creation, You behold it with delight. ||1||

So it's Vaheguru's own hukum which works not our personal thinking...

[MiddxSingh]

Scali ji, I take it as even if he were to believe himself or promote himself to be god bhai sahib wouldn't place any faith on him. I think it's abit negative to take it as if the sadh was actually rab himself bhai sahib wouldn't have any faith on him.

It's more like a saying.

[N30S1NGH]

Love and non dualism are part of each other no difference...what good is the love when there is conditions/confinement to it or what good is love when it confining pretam to only place or setting instead of sarabvyapak including dasam dwar and exculding dasam dwar equally, hell or heaven equally pre conditioned to certain type of anand?..unconditional love does not have any boundaries there is no sense of individuality- "kabir tu tu karta tu hua , mujh mein rha na hoon jab aapa par ka mitt gya , jat dekhaan tat tu ..main thing is with unconditional love - individuality and ego is lost and if accepted by guru sahib- one regardless of different pereceptions gets their ego destroyed and grace from guru is obtained..!!