Nirgun And Sargun

[Only five]

waheguru ji this thread was started because other was closed....the meanings in the first post were related to the closed thread where N30Singh ji was looking at the whole issue from nirgun (sarab-vyapakta) aspect

So are you going to even attempt to answer my questions by looking at Gurbani? I'm not scared if someone challenges what I write.

I have a lot to say about the other thread, but it has been already summarized my Guruvah on a different thread. He said it very nicely. Let's not waste time on immaterial issues.

Lets get the ball rolling here, why waste time.

[tuhintuhin]

To start with, meanings not imited to this.....beant da ant nahin paeya ja sakda....so no challenge or whatsoever can give clear cut/yes/no answers regarding HIM

Nirgun is parkash - without qualities - above "tin gun - rajo, tamo, sato" and/or maya, birth death, it's invisible / adrishat, formless, as Mehtab Singh ji says "eternal prevailance", - explained in detail in "mool manter" and "Jaap sahib"

Sargun is HIS creation in various forms, where he manifested HIMSELF, his nirgun saroop, the eternal light, and this form is visible and has three qualities - rajo, tamo, sato......

But in end, sargun and nirgun, they are one and the same.....but nirgun being sea and sargun being a pot of water in sea, when broke, one can't differentiate between the two.

[Only five]

Sargun is HIS creation in various forms, where he manifested HIMSELF, his nirgun saroop, the eternal light, and this form is visible and has three qualities - rajo, tamo, sato......

ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥

ਸਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਆਪਿ ॥ ਆਪਨ ਕੀਆ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਜਾਪ॥੧॥

The above is from Sri Sukhmani Sahib. Now listen to Dasam Bani:

ਨਰਸਿੰਘਾਵਤਾਰੰ ॥ ਵਹੈ ਕਾਲ ਮਾਰੰ ॥

नरसिंघावतारं ॥ वहै काल मारं ॥

The incarnation Narsingh was also killed by KAL.

ਬਡੋ ਡੰਡ ਧਾਰੀ ॥ ਹਣਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਭਾਰੀ ॥੭੩॥

बडो डंड धारी ॥ हणिओ काल भारी ॥७३॥

The incarnation with grinder teeth (i.e. Boar) was killed by mighty KAL.73.

Do you want to take another shot at define Sargun now, Since Sukhmani Sahib is saying Sargun is Nirankar? And Dasam Bani calls Avatar as creation subject to Kal.

[tuhintuhin]

if you read again my posts, you'll find the same thing.....HE HIMSELF IS THE SARGUN AND NIRGUN.....and anyways...I didn't know that we have to just copy paste gurbani...

but it seems like I predicted you are here to prove others wrong, by manipulating posts......

[luckysingh99]

Why are we trying to prove sargun and nirgun ??? :stupidme:

Isn't it just about understanding the contexts and meanings of both ??

If we try to prove and define 'sargun and nirgun' then in effect we are trying to 'prove and define' the Akaal Pruakh, the Ek onkaar !!! :respect:

To me this goes against the basic principles of sikhi ! :nono: - sorry if I offend, but I don't think Guruji would be pleased if I waste time trying to define him and his sargun and nirgun forms.

[Only five]

Here I will explain why I presented the Gurbani which I did.

Sargun is HIS creation in various forms, where he manifested HIMSELF

You stated that Sargun is where he manifest himself in forms. Dasam Bani which I presented fits here because Narsingh was one of the many forms which Vaheguru manifested himself in. This form was taken by Kal. Which would mean by your definition that Sargun of Vaheguru is in time. Which is not true because in Sri Sukhmani Sahib, Satguru says Sargun and Nirgun is Nirankar. Do you see now why I presented the Gurbani?

You had a definition of Sargun and it did not pass the test of Gurbani. No one slandered you or called you names for presenting definition that did not represent Gurbani.

Don't take this as a personal attack. I actually used to think in the same terms, but when I cam across the solak and pankti, it made me change into what Satguru is telling me.

[Only five]

Those that feel exploring Gurbani on Sargun explanations is against Sikhi or beadbi then please hit the report button or tell Sri Akal Takht Sahib others are exploring what Sargun means by looking at Gurbani. They can stop this huge action against Sikhi and stop these insults.

When did Sikhs become so rigid and stop the learning process. Those that want to live in caves will not be asked to come out and participate.

[tuhintuhin]

Here I will explain why I presented the Gurbani which I did.

You stated that Sargun is where he manifest himself in forms. Dasam Bani which I presented fits here because Narsingh was one of the many forms which Vaheguru manifested himself in. This form was taken by Kal. Which would mean by your definition that Sargun of Vaheguru is in time. Which is not true because in Sri Sukhmani Sahib, Satguru says Sargun and Nirgun is Nirankar. Do you see now why I presented the Gurbani?

You had a definition of Sargun and it did not pass the test of Gurbani. No one slandered you or called you names for presenting definition that did not represent Gurbani.

Don't take this as a personal attack. I actually used to think in the same terms, but when I cam across the solak and pankti, it made me change into what Satguru is telling me.

So you mean waheguru ji is not present in his creation, because the whole creation is under kaal?

[Only five]

So you mean waheguru ji is not present in his creation, because the whole creation is under kaal?

Another way to look at it.....what is outside of Vaheguru? Is Kaal outside of Vaheguru?

A diamond being inside a silver ball does not make the whole silver ball a diamond.

[tuhintuhin]

we all know ............kaal is under waheguru ji...waheguru ji is not under kaal....waheguru ji is in HIS creation, but creation is under kaal...

Could you please explain in detail your above post and on the below shabads from Gurbani?

ਹਰਿ ਮਹਿ ਤਨੁ ਹੈ ਤਨ ਮਹਿ ਹਰਿ ਹੈ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਸੋਇ ਰੇ ॥

ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਛੋਡਉ ਸਹਜੇ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਹੋਇ ਰੇ ॥੩॥੩॥

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ਲੋਗਾ ਭਰਮਿ ਨ ਭੂਲਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥

ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਾਲਿਕੁ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਸ੍ਰਬ ਠਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

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ਫਰੀਦਾ ਖਾਲਕੁ ਖਲਕ ਮਹਿ ਖਲਕ ਵਸੈ ਰਬ ਮਾਹਿ ॥

ਮੰਦਾ ਕਿਸ ਨੋ ਆਖੀਐ ਜਾਂ ਤਿਸੁ ਬਿਨੁ ਕੋਈ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੭੫॥

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ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੇਖਹੁ ਕੋਈ ਨਦਰੀ ਹਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲਿਆ ॥

ਏਹੁ ਵਿਸੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ਤੁਮ ਦੇਖਦੇ ਏਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਰੂਪੁ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਰੂਪੁ ਨਦਰੀ ਆਇਆ ॥

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ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥

ਸੂਤੁ ਏਕੁ ਮਣਿ ਸਤ ਸਹੰਸ ਜੈਸੇ ਓਤਿ ਪੋਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਜਲ ਤਰੰਗ ਅਰੁ ਫੇਨ ਬੁਦਬੁਦਾ ਜਲ ਤੇ ਭਿੰਨ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥

ਇਹੁ ਪਰਪੰਚੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਲੀਲਾ ਬਿਚਰਤ ਆਨ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੨॥

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ਘਟ ਘਟ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਸਰਬ ਨਿਰੰਤਰਿ ਕੇਵਲ ਏਕ ਮੁਰਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੧॥

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ਸੂਰਜ ਚੰਦੁ ਕਰਹਿ ਉਜੀਆਰਾ ॥

ਸਭ ਮਹਿ ਪਸਰਿਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਸਾਰਾ ॥੨॥

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ਆਕਾਸਿ ਗਗਨੁ ਪਾਤਾਲਿ ਗਗਨੁ ਹੈ ਚਹੁ ਦਿਸਿ ਗਗਨੁ ਰਹਾਇਲੇ ॥

ਆਨਦ ਮੂਲੁ ਸਦਾ ਪੁਰਖੋਤਮੁ ਘਟੁ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਗਗਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਇਲੇ ॥੧॥

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ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਬਸਿ ਰਹੇ ਗੋਪਾਲ ॥

ਦੀਨ ਬਾਂਧਵ ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲ ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਆਦਿ ਅੰਤੇ ਮਧਿ ਤੂਹੈ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਬਿਨਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋਇ ॥

ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਗਲ ਮੰਡਲ ਏਕੁ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸੋਇ ॥੧॥