Nirgun And Sargun

[Only five]

What are you trying to point at or trying to say with presenting the above Gurbani?

[tuhintuhin]

waheguru ji...if you could explain what Gurbani is saying there?

[Guest dasguruka]

He is Nirgun because he does not have the gunnas of Maya. With the gunnas of Maya He is Sargun. Like others have said above

[Only five]

Seems as this has turned into a game of wits than actual understanding of Gurbani. I have no problem interpreting Gurbani as my post on this forum and this thread speak for themselves. However you presented the Gurbani, therefore you should explain why these specific tuks and panktis are being presented by you.

Just looking at one Tuk more closely, ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥

is being preceived as if everything is Vaheguru. If this was true, then Gurbani would be wrong to say idol worship is a manmat action, which Gurbani does say. For the idol is equally Vaheguru as Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj; everything is Gobind. I prefer to look at the whole Shabad by Bhagat ji and then see how the true meaning of the tuks are explained.

The maya before our eyes is very thick. Constantly we are reminded by Satguru that Maharaj is not far away, yet we all fall down the well thinking we are the center of existence. We ask where is he, where is he I am suffering. Bhagat ji is making us think and say instead of where is he?.......ask, where am I? Some will say in the world, in the universe and so on saying that the world, universe is in actual existence. But, Bhagat ji says to this that the maya has drawn the shades over their eyes. When a dust storm comes before your eyes all you can see is particles of dust, but sooner or later this dust storm is going to fall back down into the earth. Infact Bhagat ji goes into what is Sargun in this shabad. Here it is:

ਮਿਥਿਆ ਭਰਮੁ ਅਰੁ ਸੁਪਨ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਸਤਿ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥ ਸੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਮਨਸਾ ਗੁਰ ਉਪਦੇਸੀ ਜਾਗਤ ਹੀ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੩॥

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&fb=0&Param=485

If Bhagat ji was really saying everything is Gobind (all of creation) then this Shabad on it's own will not make sense because in this pauri Bhagat ji is saying the man chases after wordly materials and thinks them to be permanent, but they are not (this has nothing to do with man's perception, but everything to do with permanent and non-permanent objects and Bhagat ji says creation is false). However Bhagat ji says to us what is permanent (Sargun) in the next tuk. Bhagat ji says, Satguru instructs to do Gurmat acts. Why is this permanent even though it is committed on earth because it is free of maya (maya surrounds it, but maya cannot effect it). Kal cannot touch it, Yama cannot touch it, neither does Dharmraj dare to come near it. The source of the Gurmat is directly a result of Sri Mool Mantar Sahib after Jap.

ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ॥ ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥

Gurmat does not change as the world changes over time. The source of Gurmat is

ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ and does not change. If the world was the image of Vaheguru, then it would not change and time would not have any impact on the world. The image of Vaheguru is ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ

[tuhintuhin]

Just looking at one Tuk more closely, ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥

is being preceived as if everything is Vaheguru. If this was true, then Gurbani would be wrong to say idol worship is a manmat action, which Gurbani does say. For the idol is equally Vaheguru as Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj; everything is Gobind. I prefer to look at the whole Shabad by Bhagat ji and then see how the true meaning of the tuks are explained.

To me Gurbani from those shabads is saying "waheguru ji" is everywhere.

Bhagat Dhanna ji, that stone was an idol for Pandit tarlochan - he got nothing from that, where as it was akal purkh ji Himslef for Bhagat Dhanna ji. It was the way of seeing and beleiving. Dhanna ji found waheguru ji, not from the stone, but from his faith. But the medium or the source was the "stone"., If he had thrown away the stone thinking it as idol, he would not have found God. Though after Waheguru ji's kirpa Bhagat ji, knew stone was just the medium (that waheguru ji chose for him), not the destination. Now I think there are diffrences in our opinions based on idol worshipping, but before the thread goes off the track (already so many threads on this topic), idol worshipping is actually worshipping without love & faith. If a person is bowing to Guru sahib without love and faith, then he's doing "idol worshipping".

Gurbani is condemning the idol worshipiing, no doubt, but the way Pandit Tarlochan used to do.

So it depends on one's love, affection, bairaag, previous karams, Guru sahib's kirpa, how the "jageasu" gets HIM or his darshan - sargun or nirgun.

In reality, sari kayanaat waheguur ji da naam jap rahi hai, but only those can hear who have worked on themselves spiritually and Gurbani says naam japan wala naami da roop ho janda hai.

[tuhintuhin]

ਪਉੜੀ ੪ : ਜਗਤ ਕਾਰਣ

!->!->

ਓਅੰਕਾਰੁ ਆਕਾਰ ਕਰਿ ਏਕ ਕਵਾਉ ਪਸਾਉ ਪਸਾਰਾ।

Aoankaaru Aakaaru Kari Ayk Kavaau Pasaau Pasaaraa.

ओअंकारु आकारु करि एक कवाउ पसाउ पसारा ।

All prevading Oankar through His One Word created the whole expansive cosmos.

1 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੪ ਪੰ. ੧

!->

ਪੰਜ ਤਤ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ਕਰਿ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਸਾਰਾ।

Panj Tat Paravaanu Kari Ghati Ghati Andari Tribhavanu Saaraa.

पंज तत परवाणु करि घटि घटि अंदरि त्रिभवणु सारा ।

Through the five elements, as the quintessence He permeated in the three worlds and their denominations.

2 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੪ ਪੰ. ੨

!->

ਕਾਦਰੁ ਕਿਨੇ ਨ ਲਖਿਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੀਆ ਅਵਤਾਰਾ।

Kaadaru Kinay N Lakhiaa Kudarati Saaji Keeaa Avataaraa.

कादरु किने न लखिआ कुदरति साजि कीआ अवतारा ।

That creator could not be seen by anyone who to expand Himself created the infinite nature(prakrti).

3 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੪ ਪੰ. ੩

!->!->

ਇਕ ਦੂ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਲਖ ਕਰਿ ਲਖ ਬਿਅੰਤ ਅਸੰਖ ਅਪਾਰਾ।

Ik Doo Kudarati Lakh Kari Lakh Biant Asankh Apaaraa.

इक दू कुदरति लख करि लख बिअंत असंख अपारा ।

He made myriad forms of nature.

4 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੪ ਪੰ. ੪

!->!->

ਰੋਮ ਰੋਮ ਵਿਚ ਰਖਿਓਨ ਕਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡਿ ਕਰੋੜਿ ਸੁਮਾਰਾ।

Romi Romi Vichi Rakhiaoni Kari Brahamandi Karorhi Soumaaraa.

रोमि रोमि विचि रखिओनि करि ब्रहमंडि करोड़ि सुमारा ।

In His each one hair He gethered up millions of worlds.

5 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੪ ਪੰ. ੫

!->

ਇਕਸ ਇਕਸ ਬ੍ਰਹਿਮੰਡਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਦਸ ਦਸ ਕਰਿ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਉਤਾਰਾ।

Ikasi Ikasi Brahamandi Vich Dasi Dasi Kari Avataar Outaaraa.

इकसि इकसि ब्रहमंडि विच दसि दसि करि अवतार उतारा ।

And then in one universe He comes in tens of forms.

6 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੪ ਪੰ. ੬

ਕੇਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਬਿਆਸ ਕਰਿ ਕਈ ਕਤੇਬ ਮੁਹੰਮਦ ਯਾਰਾ।

Kaytay Baydi Biaas Kari Kaee Katayb Muhanmad Yaaraa.

केते बेदि बिआस करि कई कतेब मुहंमद यारा ।

He has created many a dear personality such as Vedavyas and Muhammad dear to the Vedas and the Katebas respectively.

7 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੪ ਪੰ. ੭

ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਇਕੁ ਏਤਾ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥੪॥

Kudarati Iku Aytaa Paasaaraa ॥4॥

कुदरति इकु एता पासारा ॥४॥

How wonderfully the one nature has been expanded into many.

8 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੪ ਪੰ. ੮

!->!->!->!->!->!->

[Only five]

To me Gurbani from those shabads is saying "waheguru ji" is everywhere.

Bhagat Dhanna ji, that stone was an idol for Pandit tarlochan - he got nothing from that, where as it was akal purkh ji Himslef for Bhagat Dhanna ji. It was the way of seeing and beleiving. Dhanna ji found waheguru ji, not from the stone, but from his faith. But the medium or the source was the "stone"., If he had thrown away the stone thinking it as idol, he would not have found God.

If the medium was the stone, then surely Gurbani would say so, so present the Shabad's, which state this. Before you go searching, it would be best to re-read the sakhi again of Bhagat Dhanna Jatt ji.

Also where is everywhere? Ask yourself what is permanent and what is not. Read Bhagat Namdev Ji Maharaj's Shabad again.

[luckysingh99]

Seems as this has turned into a game of wits than actual understanding of Gurbani. I have no problem interpreting Gurbani as my post on this forum and this thread speak for themselves. However you presented the Gurbani, therefore you should explain why these specific tuks and panktis are being presented by you.

Just looking at one Tuk more closely, ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਹੈ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਕੋਈ ॥

is being preceived as if everything is Vaheguru. If this was true, then Gurbani would be wrong to say idol worship is a manmat action, which Gurbani does say. For the idol is equally Vaheguru as Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj; everything is Gobind. I prefer to look at the whole Shabad by Bhagat ji and then see how the true meaning of the tuks are explained.

The maya before our eyes is very thick. Constantly we are reminded by Satguru that Maharaj is not far away, yet we all fall down the well thinking we are the center of existence. We ask where is he, where is he I am suffering. Bhagat ji is making us think and say instead of where is he?.......ask, where am I? Some will say in the world, in the universe and so on saying that the world, universe is in actual existence. But, Bhagat ji says to this that the maya has drawn the shades over their eyes. When a dust storm comes before your eyes all you can see is particles of dust, but sooner or later this dust storm is going to fall back down into the earth. Infact Bhagat ji goes into what is Sargun in this shabad. Here it is:

ਮਿਥਿਆ ਭਰਮੁ ਅਰੁ ਸੁਪਨ ਮਨੋਰਥ ਸਤਿ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥ ਸੁਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਮਨਸਾ ਗੁਰ ਉਪਦੇਸੀ ਜਾਗਤ ਹੀ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ॥੩॥

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&fb=0&Param=485

If Bhagat ji was really saying everything is Gobind (all of creation) then this Shabad on it's own will not make sense because in this pauri Bhagat ji is saying the man chases after wordly materials and thinks them to be permanent, but they are not (this has nothing to do with man's perception, but everything to do with permanent and non-permanent objects and Bhagat ji says creation is false). However Bhagat ji says to us what is permanent (Sargun) in the next tuk. Bhagat ji says, Satguru instructs to do Gurmat acts. Why is this permanent even though it is committed on earth because it is free of maya (maya surrounds it, but maya cannot effect it). Kal cannot touch it, Yama cannot touch it, neither does Dharmraj dare to come near it. The source of the Gurmat is directly a result of Sri Mool Mantar Sahib after Jap.

ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ॥ ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥

Gurmat does not change as the world changes over time. The source of Gurmat is

ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ and does not change. If the world was the image of Vaheguru, then it would not change and time would not have any impact on the world. The image of Vaheguru is ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ

Excellent understanding !

I was very pleased to read and follow this contemplating with the explanations!

[luckysingh99]

If the medium was the stone, then surely Gurbani would say so, so present the Shabad's, which state this. Before you go searching, it would be best to re-read the sakhi again of Bhagat Dhanna Jatt ji.

Also where is everywhere? Ask yourself what is permanent and what is not. Read Bhagat Namdev Ji Maharaj's Shabad again.

Infact on ang 485 following this very shabad is the next one that can answer tuhintuhin's concern and query about 'idols and stones'

I can't get the srigranthorg working at the moment to display, - I think the server's down.

[luckysingh99]

Interesting conversation.

I know that previously I had said that I found it not in my interests to be trying to describe Akaal purakh or confine him within a descriptive boundary as I feel it is contrary to gurmat. However, I notice that the conversation is focusing more on what exactly nirgun and sargun means to us common people !

My apologies for sounding harsh :respect:

I am coming to the conclusion that sargun is itself part of formless or nirankaar(formless God)

Since Sargun is not to be saying God in human form or other material form, -because this itself is contrary to gurmat, Therefore, sargun roop indicates the ''effect' of His Hukam or divine order, His will, his doing..etc..

In this manner,I gather that both nirgun and sargun are aspects of the 'formless Nirankaar'

My only query is what about ''Antarjamee'' ??

The inner-knower and inner dweller with us, then what exactly do we call that , is it Nirgun or Sargun ??

This is what makes me think that it is 'Sargun', because everywhere we look we can find him or the ''effect'- the shabad, the vibraton or the sound !

(Not to sure how to explain it in simpler terms!)

PS. I may be completely off the mark here, because it is just my thought and interpretation which usually changes over time :stupidme: