Used By A Sikh Guy

[DalbirSingh]

Maybe he had you all wrong diya maybe he thought you were in it for the fun like he was and in the process you just wanted to come over to his house grab some food relax, but you aren't what he wants to settle with.

If you talk to people who are promiscuous and ask them for their moral justification you might see more insights to it, it might surprise you to know people like this exist from all sorts of denominations of religions and that's why STDs/STIs don't forgive any religious or ethnic demographic. There are people who believe sexual repression, sex out of marriage is all a bad thing, that sexual expression aids social and sexual growth, that people get more experienced with partners and human beings that they can grow with rather then pursuing pure virginity and a true life partner who was faithful to them in their entire life.

Some view that although they do this they try and live life to it's maximum and still try and be polite, nice and kind to people. Some people believe being against promiscuity is against human expression, that monogamy technically doesn't even exist in the animal kingdom. There is also a view sexual expression is the only path to human peace, that animals which are the most promiscuous are more happier in life and have less tensions between them from a zoologist perspective. Alot of people who believe in promiscuity can be scared to discuss it out of the fear of being a victim of religious extremism turning into the victim of a neo-jack the ripper.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_repression

All of these thoughts are outside of sikhism and to believe in them mean you ain't really sikh, maybe in his own mind sikhism is just a cultural thing which he doesn't believe in too much. Not to be in such sangat or congregation can help you avoid such things aswell, growing up around the wrong kinds of people can effect people negatively likewise. To preach a doctrine of it against it to those who believe in it can automatically label you as a religious nutter or a preachy person who is openly ignored. There are people who do the whole **** buddy thing, but these things aren't sikhism they are extensions of modern western liberal philosophies that go against repression of sexuality, some believe repression of sexuality encourages all of it to bottle out and come out in the wrong kind of ways, some people believe that no one is truly monogamous it's a private matter to actually find the truth of. You want monogamy he wants promiscuity he wasn't right for you nor does he represent our religion. Or maybe he believes in god, that as a human he will sin regardlessly and believes only god can judge him and that's it he will do what he wants.

This woman mentioned your subject in her video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dyag0Es7YY8

[Guest diya]

Diya, you asked "What does your religion say about something like this? Is there any punishment for someone who does something like this to someone? Is it okay to do something like this to someone who is not Sikh?"

Our religion forbids us to have sexual relationships outside of marriage, so if he was doing that, he obviously wasn't following Sikhi. As for the last part, about whether it is okay to do that to someone who is not Sikh, we believe that there is only One God, we are all the children of that God, and labels such as "Sikh" and "Muslim" should not be used to divide us. We are told to see the divine light in all of Creation, we are told to look upon everybody equally, so you being Muslim does not somehow justify his actions.

If my blood brother did something like this, I would drag him out onto the street and shame him in front of the community. If I were at Gurdwara and one of the guys there had done something like this, to a Sikh OR non-Sikh girl, then I'd be willing to bet my life that the guy was not going to make it out of there on his own two feet, the other Sikh guys would tear him apart.

I have seen this plot far too many times before. Girl and guy meet, fall in love, sleep together, girl wants to get married and guy leaves (for one reason or another). I know that most members on this forum are familiar with Muslim guys doing this kind of thing to Sikh girls, but trust me fellas, it does happen the other way around too, way more than anyone will let on about. I have personally known guys from Sikh families do this to Muslim girls before, and have heard lots of stories about it as well. So it wasn't that surprising for me to read.

The thing that does stump me though is the comment of the father. Diya, I have known guys who come from non-practicing Sikh families, guys who are really only Sikh in name, who will sleep with anything that moves, but if their fathers ever found out about it, they would be kicked out of the house, or worse, beaten to a bloody pulp. I have NEVER EVER EVER EVER known of a Punjabi father to tell his son "go have your fun", not once. Not only is it against the religion, it is against the culture too, families may not practice Sikhi, but the immigrant families (I am assuming his parents moved here from Punjab) still hold on to the culture very dearly.

I am not saying you are lying, you sound genuine, so I will give you my advice.

1) Forget about him. This is the better option, he doesn't really sound like a great guy to begin with. You said you guys had broken up multiple times before, I don't get the impression that your relationship was very stable to begin with. Imagine being married to him and getting into a large argument and only then discovering what he was really like. It is better this happened now, you say it hurts now, it would have hurt a lot more after marriage. Just get back on your horse, continue living your life and I'm sure you'll find some other guy. You sound like a great girl, it shouldn't be too hard.

2) In case you still want to pursue things with him, there is something you can do. The only reason I am mentioning this option is because I am not 100% convinced that he is telling the truth about what his father said, to have his fun with you and then leave. I think he was lying, for one reason or another he decided he didn't want to marry you, and to avoid you going to his parents, he made it seem like his father was fine with what he was doing. I don't really buy it though. His family knows about you and you say they like you. You are friends with his sisters. Here is what I would do: go to his house one day, sit down and talk with the entire family. Tell them about everything that happened, and also about the comment he claims his father made. Then ask his father, if someone "had their fun" with your daughters and then left, how would you feel? I can almost guarantee you that the sisters will be on your side, the mother may be as well. You were willing to convert to Sikhi for him, so what is the excuse? You need to find out exactly why he doesn't want to marry you. Perhaps he was never serious about it to begin with, he just wanted to have his way with you and then leave, and if that is the case, at least you will be exposing him for what he truly is in front of his family.

I still say that option one is better, but I can understand if you go for the second one. I hope everything works out for you sister, and please don't let one <banned word filter activated> paint a negative image of Sikhs or Sikhi in your mind. If you are genuine about learning more about Sikhi, then don't let the fact that you are broken up stop you.

Rab Rakha

u know what aman..that's the reason i feel so hurt and betrayed. it doesnt make sense from a cultural point of view either. i know people who r dating guys on the sly cause if their families found out wud hit the fan..but his family knew all along...and then they discard me? like how much fun did the father want him to have? if it was a day or a week or a few months or something i wudn't feel so torn. i gave this guy 2 years of my life. believe it or not, he spoke about marriage and kids first. i didn't even bring it up until after. he called me wifey in front of all his friends. he even told me our kids names. i'm so confused. i feel like i'm being punished or something... like the family had a personal vendetta against me cause of my religion.

i'll go with option 1 as I don't think i want to be around his family again or pursue him and be humiliated again. i get this horrible feeling in my gut now when i imagine being with him. i hate his family. he told me his parents want to have a lavish big wedding for him and invite the whose who of the city...and that if he married me it wud be a small shameful wedding... i guess he can a lavish wedding now. one of my sikh friends told me that even if i converted i wud never really be considered equal..i'd always be considered an outsider cause there are already lots of divisions such as caste within the community...

anyways i'd just like to say thanks times a million for understanding. i was starting to feel even worse after people started being judgmental and accused me of being fake. i have alot of sikh friends, but i just don't feel comfortable pouring my heart out to anyone at this stage...thats why i came to an anonymous forum.

[Mehtab Singh]

one of my sikh friends told me that even if i converted i wud never really be considered equal..i'd always be considered an outsider cause there are already lots of divisions such as caste within the community...

Is this other friend of yours a devout Sikh or just another Bollywood types who likes to go out on dates and fool around? In your case, if you would be becoming a Sikh for your guy, obviously your commitment to the faith would always be a matter of concern, its just too obvious.

I am born to parents who are from a Punjabi Brahmin Hindu background, and became a Sikh 9 years ago out of conviction (not for a girl). Its not that all Sikhs I met afterwards were shining angels who accepted me with open arms. There are always those who, although themselves the worst example of a Sikh, would like to taunt and somehow remind you where you came from (I was once mocked and told to get a Gutka Sahib printed in Sanskrit just because of my background), because they themselves are ashamed of the way they look. Some do it because they are so full of venom that they can't trust their own wife, forget about trusting a non-Sikh who embraced Sikhi, LOL! But doesn't that happen in all cultures? You will find hateful intolerant people everywhere. Back in the days, those who embraced Islam were still kept on a lower social tier. There is nothing of that sort in Sikhi, I can tell you that from experience. Agreed that there will always be some friction within a community at some point, but isn't that basic human nature? Moreover, caste is a cancer that has plagued most of the Punjabi Sikh community, no doubt. But Sikhi, or Sikhism as you say, is totally against caste. You should read more Sikh history as it is itself an evidence to it.

Do not let this bad experience with this dirt bag make you hate all Sikhs. You don't seem to be the hating type so far. In fact, if you really want to slap him hard, so hard that it shakes the roots of his existence, then I think you should try your best and be the best Muslim he could ever come across. And then one day, you won't need to tell him anything. He will realize what a sore tumor he is and what a gem you turned out to be once you got rid of him.

Stay in Chardi Kala (always rising spirits)

[isingh1699]

u know what aman..that's the reason i feel so hurt and betrayed. it doesnt make sense from a cultural point of view either. i know people who r dating guys on the sly cause if their families found out wud hit the fan..but his family knew all along...and then they discard me?

Diya the father and son seem to be a disgrace. They are not Sikhs.

Everyone on this forum is hurting for you and sad about your mistreatment.

like how much fun did the father want him to have? if it was a day or a week or a few months or something i wudn't feel so torn. i gave this guy 2 years of my life.

Diya you are young and if you believe in God and that you are not inferior to any man out there then you will find happiness in the future that will last a lifetime.

believe it or not, he spoke about marriage and kids first. i didn't even bring it up until after. he called me wifey in front of all his friends. he even told me our kids names.

For him to say all that and in the end leave it in tatters is an evil sin that he will pay the price for. I'm sure his mother and sisters are utterly disgusted with him and how cruelly he has treated you. But you are better off without him.

i'm so confused. i feel like i'm being punished or something... like the family had a personal vendetta against me cause of my religion.

Not at all. Don't believe that for a second. Sikhs don't think like that. Study true Sikhi and you will see that Sikhs are not allowed to ever do such things. It might be encouraged by Imams in Mosques in the UK but no Sikh will ever support anything as evil as this.

i'll go with option 1 as I don't think i want to be around his family again or pursue him and be humiliated again. i get this horrible feeling in my gut now when i imagine being with him. i hate his family. he told me his parents want to have a lavish big wedding for him and invite the whose who of the city...and that if he married me it wud be a small shameful wedding... i guess he can a lavish wedding now.

Sadly Diya this scenario happens too often amongst people from the sub-continent. He will never get a girl like you, who would have become Sikh for him. Maybe he will only realise his mistake if he sees you happily married with a true Sikh in the future.

The crazy thing is that he was never a Sikh in the first place. It's a shame that the person you thought was Sikh, in actual fact was not.

Bhai Mardana Ji is an example of a true Sikh. He was the first Sikh in history and was born to Muslim parents just like you.

one of my sikh friends told me that even if i converted i wud never really be considered equal.

That's not true Diya. My Aunt in Vancouver was from a Muslim background before coming to Sikhi through marriage. The whole extended family loves her more than anything because we all respect the risks she took to marry my Uncle. If you would like someone who understands your background to talk to then email the mods on this site and I will likewise provide my Aunt's contact details so that she can support you in getting stronger emotionally.

Failing that, join this site as a member and you will notice how the whole forum will rally round to support in any issues you face.

.i'd always be considered an outsider cause there are already lots of divisions such as caste within the community...

Caste is followed by people who are not Sikh. Sikhs do not believe in caste and totally oppose caste system or any type of inequality based on race or gender. In 1699 Guru Gobind Singh Ji delivered the biggest blow to the caste system it had ever seen.

anyways i'd just like to say thanks times a million for understanding. i was starting to feel even worse after people started being judgmental and accused me of being fake. i have alot of sikh friends, but i just don't feel comfortable pouring my heart out to anyone at this stage...thats why i came to an anonymous forum.

Join the forum Diya and you will feel a lot better. My Aunt is there to support you should you feel like taking up the offer.

I personally feel so bad that this dog has treated like you this. Remember you are not even a Muslim. Just because you were a born into a Muslim family doesn't make you Muslim. I bet you believe in male and female equality and probably don't respect the support for slavery in the Quran. Similarly, people are not Sikh on account of the family they are born into. You can only be Sikh on account of your positive and kind actions. I'm not a good Sikh and very possibly you sound like a better Sikh than me in terms of your loving nature. So all the best and stay strong. We're here to help you if you need.

[proud2bejatt]

Btw as to the outsider, you'd be considered an outsider for 5 second until you showed whether you really sikh or not.

The older women esp. would test you, if it turns you converted for the man then they would lose all respect for you, if you didn't you'd be a sister forever.

VJKVJF||

edit -

Sikhs don't follow caste, for those who follow gotra system that's more ancient than hinduism and does not have religious significance as it does for bramins.

They still shouldn't and that is changing, it is just a consequence of being around hindus for 60/150 years.

Since there's no Sindi PM to snitch us out this time, Khalistan won't have caste.

[DalbirSingh]

I reckon people in most religions who convert are treated as outsiders even with muslims or christians, I know of muslims who talk about this happening. Even muslims have the same caste issues or racial issues going on when it comes to marriage, we aren't the only victims of the caste issue, the caste system effects all of the south asian continent which is made up of all world religions. Racism and tribalism do exist outside of south asia as well, but our social ills do seem worse to us since they are our own. By the time you become a grandmother sikh will you only be considered an insider and that would be by your own (it's sad that the family couldn't at least accept you as their daughter in law and the mother to their grandchildren instead). It is what it is, and it doesn't just happen in Sikhism.

One reason I can see even with conversion you might be considered an outsider is because of how you left a faith, some fear you might be a spiritual shopper and might leave that one, or you might not be sincere in the conversion, or that in the asian marriage thing where two families actually marry your family won't be involved or entirely excluded, if you would have had to elope run away from home things could have gone bitter. Maybe his parents told him to lie so that they wouldn't have to confront your parents about their son making you run away with him.

It doesn't make sense in a cultural perspective to those who haven't yet become coconuts and absorbed some negative traits of western liberal culture yet, for that reason alone you sound like you are too good for him. As for that video above I posted the lady says Love and virginity are separate things if giving your virginity was love, that would mean love is finite and ends, where as love is truly something that overlooks your past and is something you keep giving and is infinite.

I've known a few hindu mates who were told likewise to have fun and keep protection and make the most of life by their fathers. As for how much fun, it all comes down to what fun truly was if companionship was fun then maybe he could have committed from 2 years to his whole life. The sleazy crowd don't always open up to the religious or cultural reserved valued crowd, but there are people who transition from that phase as well. You might not get those 2 years back but it's better then 20 years people we have a 50% divorce rate in the UK amongst asians both sikhs and muslims have half, alot of it is fraudulent but it exists nonetheless whereas the national average is 60% divorce rate, perhaps due to the liberty that exists for people to exit marriages they don't want to be in.

Maybe it was all an excuse for other things like growing apart or maybe you were too clingy not giving him his personal space, or maybe he is now infatuated with another girl, maybe he lacked confidence earlier with girls now he is fine, or maybe he has discovered that he likes men instead of women, maybe he disliked how you actually looked going past all the superficial (maybe he saw in you what was actually in him), maybe he has problems with the intimacy factor, maybe he had low self esteem and seeked someone with low self esteem he didn't want to settle with but learn from and moved on. You seem to be a pleasant person people take likings to in the above and people are asking you to join fully so that's fine. I'm sure you must have someone out of your sikh friends you can entrust to all of this. This whole thing could have even been turned around a girl these days can use a guy aswell be with him for 2 years go to his house and she leaves him.

As for him telling you he loves you, wants children with you, thought up names of the children, I think it sounds alot like stuff you see in the movies, maybe that was his flirting line thought you might be drawn closer to him for he truly wanted which was just your body for him to use, maybe he was unsure earlier and changed from all of that. I've known a person who used that and seen it backfire on them because the girl had a broader definition of love and felt it takes more time to develop, something which I agree with. Love amongst partners takes along time to develop, to love is to care about the other person and to trust them. Maybe he wanted to take revenge for the bad historical relations between sikhs and muslims due to the mughal empire or the partition violence, but all of that just lowers this guy to nothing where his own brethren sikhs are disowning him on this site.

Whatever it was, it might hurt it's okay you want to stay anonymous, don't worry about being accused of being fake sadly when you have too many boys crying wolf people are going to be suspicion when someone does cry wolf, there are fakes on this page too. I don't agree with the previous guys opinion over becoming a better muslim, going through a breakup phase can make a person do crazy stuff and become a fanatic, I think you need time to be a better human being, get a bowl of ice cream, watch a few good comedy movies (minus romance since it will remind you of the past), get a new boy friend, maybe find a better sikh boyfriend if interfaith dating is your thing (out of all of this you learn, grow, change and move forward to become the better you).

People are always going to be judgemental in life, you just got to be content with yourself and happy with who you are, there is only one person like you in the world, you are unique. You gave him your ultimatum and got your answer it's hard to move past that, but move past that you must for your own sake. You shouldn't punish yourself mentally and make yourself a martyr in your own mind for this guys different views, I know you deserve better.

[Mehtab Singh]

I don't agree with the previous guys opinion over becoming a better muslim, going through a breakup phase can make a person do crazy stuff and become a fanatic, I think you need time to be a better human being, get a bowl of ice cream, watch a few good comedy movies (minus romance since it will remind you of the past), get a new boy friend, maybe find a better sikh boyfriend if interfaith dating is your thing (out of all of this you learn, grow, change and move forward to become the better you).

LOL, yeah I am sure its better to find a new Sikh boyfriend than becoming a good/better Muslim, way to go! :D

[DalbirSingh]

LOL, yeah I am sure its better to find a new Sikh boyfriend than becoming a good/better Muslim, way to go! :D

If it's her thing otherwise find a muslim boyfriend, a christian one, a jewish one, a parsi one, a hindu one, an atheist one, a chinese one, a buddhist one. Banda te banda honde. It's better to be really happy then follow a false sense of happiness where you enter religious extremism and go nuts. I'm not one for promoting baba nand singh's teaching of be a good x,y,z it can equate to be a good satanist or be a good atheist i'm more for be a good human

[Mehtab Singh]

This is a Sikh forum, and Sikhi does NOT encourage pre-marital relationships. So by that logic, giving someone an advice to fetch a boyfriend/girlfriend is wrong. We don't ask alcoholics to hike up their consumption of alcohol, we find ways how to keep them away from it. Just because someone thinks having a bf/gf makes them happy, doesn't mean it really does, and neither does religious extremism. If someone, Sikh or non-Sikh, wants to find out what is real happiness, then without sounding like a religious extremist, I would suggest them to read, understand, contemplate and implement Gurbani in their life.

[DalbirSingh]

Mehtab having a girlfriend or boyfriend doesn't automatically equal sex phornication out of wedlock is a kurheit, this might surprise you but you can court someone without actually getting in their pants. Having a cup of coffee regularly to get to know someone you consider life partner material isn't adultery. Infact what modern arranged marriage has become courtship of the old days. There is a difference between encouraging someone to get married when they are at that stage of life and need to take the first few steps to and between becoming promiscuous. Gurbani itself says

Page 788, Line 11
ਧਨ ਪਿਰੁ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਨਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਇਕਠੇ ਹੋਇ ॥
धन पिरु एहि न आखीअनि बहनि इकठे होइ ॥
Ḏẖan pir ehi na ākẖī▫an bahan ikṯẖe ho▫e.
They are not said to be husband and wife, who merely sit together.
Guru Amar Das

There are alot of decent people who meet their ideal partner who are good human beings through courtship. Sikhi doesn't encourage forced marriages either where you tie the knot between people who don't know each other or want to be with each other. The comparison between alcohol and dating is out of context mate taking poison and having companionship of someone you want to marry is something totally different.

But mehtab perhaps you're right Diya should read gurbani go to gurdwara and get an arranged marriage to a good sikh family.