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Moved Discussion - Sufism

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1. Just like Bhai Mardana adopted Sikhi (I can quote history to prove this) and his descendants fell back into Islam somehow. Just like Arab Sikhs existed at the time of Guru Nanak Sahib but don't know. Just like Raja Shiv Nabh embraced Sikhi after meeting Gurudev, sent preachers to convert Sri Lankans, today you find none. Just like half of Bihar used to be Nanakpanthi and now you find less than a few thousand Sikhs there. It is a fact that Guru Nanak Sahib converted many people to Sikhi but sadly they fell back into their original religions due to lack of Parchaar over time. Even today you might find some Arabs or Tibetans who worship Guru Nanak Sahib. According to your favorite people, the Muslims (Ahmadis), Guru Nanak Sahib had 20 million Sikhs. You can imagine what happened to them over time. Besides a very weak point that one has to follow the religion of his ancestors, mine were Hindu does that imply anything about me?

2.There are certain pillars you can't reject and still call yourself a Muslim. Today there are atheists who claim to be Atheist Sikh, you can go as far as you want but there are some limits.

3. You still have not answered why Bhagat Fareed talks of sitting on a seat where many have sat before? Was it really Ibrahim Sani or Sheikh Fareed?

4. You are implying that Guru Nanak Sahib were hypocrite (Waheguru forgive me). But it is rather dumb to assume that you would reject ones religion totally and then get people of that religion to write in your book. Truth is that all Guru Granth Sahib is united under thought, they all reject Islam and Hinduism. In fact Bhagat Kabeer goes far as saying; 'Whatever the Hindu and Muslim scholars have written, I reject; I take inspiration from none'.

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Lol, mehtab Singh/sikh kosh, if professor Khalil nazmi is the head of the sufi sect of sheikh fareed now, why are they still Muslims of as you both state they are sikhs of the guru, if they are sikhs of the guru should they of not taken the amrit of Guru Nanak ji in his tenth form?

This was answered already. They reverted back to their former faiths. This happened with more than one community in India who had huge Sikh converts and then they reverted back to their former faiths. Check http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/73252-the-sikhs-of-kerala/?hl=kerala

Mehtab Singh, when Shiri guru Nanak dev rejected Islam and Hinduism and why still have Muslim/Hindu scribes in the SGGS, again because it is the beauty and truth behind the gian what's been written! Let them be Hindu and Muslim, for Akal Purakh knows truth about everything and other religions also know some truth about waheguru, hence the Hindu and Muslim scribe in iur SGGS.

That means people can take the message of Gurbani with a pinch of salt? Thats like saying one can cut his/her hair and drink alcohol and at the same time bow down to Gurbani where you're told not to?

Dhan Dhan bhai gurdas ji said "Nanak Nirmal Panth Chalaya" because Shiri guru Nanak did lol, but again as Sikhs do we not say keep strong to the faith you were born in? Or Mehtab Singh do you think we should start converting masses of people because sikhi has the monoply on Akal purakh because their faith is inadequate and not fully nirmal as you said? It doesn't work like that my brother, god dwells within all, if your Muslim be the best muslim, if your Christian, be the best Christian, its about devotion to your faith and respect to the other faith for pramaatma is within all living beings and in mass. We dont need to go round saying to another person if a different faith, your faith is not nirmal and ours is, were better than you!

Its failure on our part to NOT have spread Guru Sahib's message in a much better manner. We obviously don't convert people by the sword. This is what Singhs do: http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/70735-jab-tak-sooraj-chaand-rahega-khalsa-tera-naam-rahega/?hl=mathana

Veer, I am not sure what the issue is. If all religions are the same, if all paths lead to God, then my question which I repeat is, why did Guru Sahib have to take the trouble to go to all corners of the world and preach the truth? Why didn't He just stay in Punjab and ask people to follow what they believe in? Why did He speak against caste system, gender inequality which are part and parcel of Hinduism/Islam? Sahib Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Patshah Ji Maharaj could have told Hindus to accept Islam, because God is one, and so you'll be worshiping the same God, so it doesn't matter if you're Hindu or Muslim. But that didn't happen. Guru Sahib didn't force anyone to become a Sikh, at the same time Guru Sahib told them the shocking truth about the falseness of their faiths.

Guru Sahib says

ਸਾਚੁ ਕਹੋਂ ਸੁਨ ਲੇਹੁ ਸਭੈ ਜਿਨ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਕੀਓ ਤਿਨ ਹੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਇਓ ॥੯॥੨੯॥

I speak Truth, all should turn their ears towards it: he, who is absorbed in True Love, he would realize the Lord. 9.29.

But see what He says right after this pankti...

ਕਾਹੂ ਲੈ ਪਾਹਨ ਪੂਜ ਧਰਯੋ ਸਿਰ ਕਾਹੂ ਲੈ ਲਿੰਗ ਗਰੇ ਲਟਕਾਇਓ ॥

Someone worshipped stone and placed it on his head. Someone hung the phallus (lingam) from his neck.

ਕਾਹੂ ਲਖਿਓ ਹਰਿ ਅਵਾਚੀ ਦਿਸਾ ਮਹਿ ਕਾਹੂ ਪਛਾਹ ਕੋ ਸੀਸੁ ਨਿਵਾਇਓ ॥

Someone visualized God in the South and someone bowed his head towards the West.

ਕੋਉ ਬੁਤਾਨ ਕੋ ਪੂਜਤ ਹੈ ਪਸੁ ਕੋਉ ਮ੍ਰਿਤਾਨ ਕੋ ਪੂਜਨ ਧਾਇਓ ॥

Some fool worships the idols and someone goes to worship the dead.

ਕੂਰ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਉਰਝਿਓ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਜਗ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਗਵਾਨ ਕੋ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ॥੧੦॥੩੦॥

The whole world is entangled in false rituals and has not known the secret of Lord-God 10.30.

And from the same Bani there is one pankti which totally devastates all doubts regarding what Guru Sahib thought of other faiths:

ਸਾਰੇ ਹੀ ਦੇਸ ਕੋ ਦੇਖਿ ਰਹਿਓ ਮਤ ਕੋਊ ਨ ਦੇਖੀਅਤ ਪ੍ਰਾਨਪਤੀ ਕੇ ॥

I have seen the disciplines of the religious systems of all the countries, but seen none of the Lord, the Master of my life.

This was the Nirmal Panth of Sahib Sri Guru Nanak Dev Patshah Ji Maharaj.

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In fact Bhagat Kabeer goes far as saying; 'Whatever the Hindu and Muslim scholars have written, I reject; I take inspiration from none'.

ਪੰਡਿਤ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਛਾਡੇ ਦੋਊ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

I have abandoned both the Pandits, the Hindu religious scholars, and the Mullahs, the Muslim priests. ||1||Pause||

Circumcision is the first and foremost thing done to a Muslim male at birth (I've actually seen this barbarity done on a baby when I was a kid and thats how I found out). Bhagat Kabeer Jee rejects it outright.

ਆਸਾ ॥

Aasaa:

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਕਹਾ ਤੇ ਆਏ ਕਿਨਿ ਏਹ ਰਾਹ ਚਲਾਈ ॥

Where have the Hindus and Muslims come from? Who put them on their different paths?

ਦਿਲ ਮਹਿ ਸੋਚਿ ਬਿਚਾਰਿ ਕਵਾਦੇ ਭਿਸਤ ਦੋਜਕ ਕਿਨਿ ਪਾਈ ॥੧॥

Think of this, and contemplate it within your mind, O men of evil intentions. Who will go to heaven and hell? ||1||

ਕਾਜੀ ਤੈ ਕਵਨ ਕਤੇਬ ਬਖਾਨੀ ॥

O Qazi, which book have you read?

ਪੜ੍ਹਤ ਗੁਨਤ ਐਸੇ ਸਭ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਖਬਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Such scholars and students have all died, and none of them have discovered the inner meaning. ||1||Pause||

ਸਕਤਿ ਸਨੇਹੁ ਕਰਿ ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕਰੀਐ ਮੈ ਨ ਬਦਉਗਾ ਭਾਈ ॥

Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny.

ਜਉ ਰੇ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਮੋਹਿ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਕਰੈਗਾ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਕਟਿ ਜਾਈ ॥੨॥

If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. ||2||

ਸੁੰਨਤਿ ਕੀਏ ਤੁਰਕੁ ਜੇ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਅਉਰਤ ਕਾ ਕਿਆ ਕਰੀਐ ॥

If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?

ਅਰਧ ਸਰੀਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਛੋਡੈ ਤਾ ਤੇ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਹੀ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੩॥

She is the other half of a man's body, and she does not leave him, so he remains a Hindu. ||3||

ਛਾਡਿ ਕਤੇਬ ਰਾਮੁ ਭਜੁ ਬਉਰੇ ਜੁਲਮ ਕਰਤ ਹੈ ਭਾਰੀ ॥

Give up your holy books, and remember the Lord, you fool, and stop oppressing others so badly.

ਕਬੀਰੈ ਪਕਰੀ ਟੇਕ ਰਾਮ ਕੀ ਤੁਰਕ ਰਹੇ ਪਚਿਹਾਰੀ ॥੪॥੮॥

Kabeer has grasped hold of the Lord's Support, and the Muslims have utterly failed. ||4||8||

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Sheikh Brahm as mentioned in JanamSakhis who rode on a wall to impress Guru Nanak was none other than than Baba Nand Singh ji in one of his previous lives. This is per his Biography "Anand Chamatkar" written by Gurmukh Singh one of his hazoori ragis and son of Uttam Singh who was Baba Nand Singh first hazzori sewadar. Baba Nand Singh said "jo swad is janam which Aya ho oh pehali kade nahi Aya".

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WJKK WJKF,

Brothers, sorry for the late reply, iv logged on when possible to read everybody's contributions to the topic.

I think its a case of were gona have to agree to disagree on this one lol.

My opinion is based on what I believe our Guru Granth Sahib Ji is telling us, I refer to shabads "aval Allah noor upaaya- ang 1350" and "koi bole ram ram- ang 885" for anyone who's interested.

I personally do not want to participate on insulting any religious prophet like the prophet Muhammad, as we all know how it feels to us when someone insults someone we hold close, whatever our claim is, we don't need to cause insult, because if our gurus didn't offend on that basis, why should we?

Also I have not said that everything about Islam and Hinduism is right at all, my point was waheguru exists in all and it's us who feel insecure to say not an iota of truth exists in any other faith about waheguru.

Various brothers have stated it could be sheikh Ibrahim's saloks and that the sources I have read from are ever bias or inaccurate, however, the source I read from is my Guru, Shiri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and when my guru speaks, my guru says "salok sheikh fareed" which is really the full stop for me.

Also, on the topic some have stated that Sufism is not apart of Islam as they reject the prophet Muhammad? The majority of sufi sects I am aware of are Muslim and don't reject the prophet Muhammad, they hold Ali as the successor of Islam after the death of the prophet Mohammed where as the orthodox Muslims do not condone this. Also Sufism has a more mystic, spiritual version of Islam where Allah is within everything and is everywhere and the point of a sufi musalmaan is to merge back with Allah rather than go to a specific place in the afterlife, this view is very similar to our dharam in principal.

The view that Entertainers like the late, great Nustat Fateh Ali Khan would do anything for a quick buck is a little crude. Who are we to judge someone else's spiritual advancement in their own faith? The sufi celebrate waheguru, understanding the oneness of god in their own way as do we, yet my post about bhangra artist who cause caste divide go unseen, contradicting themselves by saying caste is great, then in a dharmic geet they sing caste is wrong. My topic on this didn't get much attention yet these people are able to poison young understanding on sikh principals and make a quick buck by doing so.

My point was that just because someone is a musalmaan, Hindu or Jew, does not mean they know no truth of parmaatma, language used by sheikh fareed meets both gurmat and anti gurmat e.g being buried in a grave and hell, their are many shabad in the gurbani that state idol worship and praying towards Mecca are inadequate, however their are many shabad which also refer to the oneness of parmaatma who has many names from every part of the world and out.

In my opinion, to think the world has known NO truth about god before sikhi is silly, the reason behind sikhi, Guru Nanaks Nirmal Panth is because the state of man kinds paap had blinded man kind, hence "sat guru Nanak pargateya meethi dundh jag chanan hoa". Guru Nanak enlightened the very parts of the world he reached. Who so ever wants to walk on the path of Nanak must play the game of love and put their head on their palm. Many people from other faiths do the same thing, "Islam" means to surrender, one has to surrender to gods will. We cannot say that people of other faiths have not surrendered to waheguru, it's people who interpret this wrongly, as in terrorism and the killing of innocent people. The gurbani tells us, that a person can find waheguru simply sitting in their home by surrendering. Again, the principal between parmaatma and his creation is this in its very essence without any stamp of any religion.

Someone on this website on another topic asked me the question "how far does my equality go". My answer then is relevant here, as sikhs such as "SIKHKOSH" quite sarcastically remarked once again "my favourite people, the Muslims" in one of his posts. SIKHKOSH dear brother, the Muslims are my favourite people, as are the Jews, Christians, Buddhists, White, black or whatever creation of waheguru. I strive to see pramaatmaa in every individual I meet irregards of their religion or ethnicity. I am no higher or lower to a Muslim, I am a learner, a sikh of guru Nanak, my karma and their karma has been written and we will all inevitably be judged on our action. We can see the fundamental floors in other peoples faiths, yet we cannot sort out our own problems within our faith which was perfect and now has been factioned and fragmented. We can insult someone else's prophet which they hold close, yet we allow people who call themselves sikhs and at the same time mock our gurus principals.

Pramaatma has no bounds, Pramaatma is everything, everyone and all knowing. To think that sikhs have the monopoly on Pramaatma is simply ahankar. The thing that makes us different from the majority of the major worlds religions is we do not preach that we are the ultimate people, we are simply learners, we are Akal purakhs faujh, the khalsa, we protect everybody who suffers injustice including "my favourite people" the Muslims as Dhan Dhan Baba Taru Singh Ji did. Every sikh is obliged to tell others of their faith as our gurus did, however we do not need to carry out Dawa, the defragmentation of another's faith to highlight their own faith.

The unity of god as I have stated does not mean that a sikh can idol worship or dishonour their kesh or use tobacco (any kurehit) as if we call ourselves sikh, we have to abide by the law given to us as sikhs. That means the sikhs that lived and called themselves sikhs pre guru gobind Singh, lived within the then rehat, after 1699 dasmesh pita gave us the gift of amrit, then great Mahaan sikhs who lived as sikhs pre amrit took amrit and adopted the khalsa, as did many others as this was the new maryada that we should all aspire to live as sikhs and take amrit. I think it was veer Mehab Singh that asked me whether it is ok for someone who cuts their hair, smokes tobacco and consumes alcohol to matha tekh SGGS ji, as we can take sikhi with a pinch of salt, well it happens all around the U.K on a Sundays divan. Many sikhs are sehaj dhari, smoke and consume alcohol? I don't quite understand your point? People already take sikhi with a pinch of salt, that's my issue and what brings me to discuss matters on here. Muslims have their own rehat as do Jews and Christians. The thing that sets us aside as sikhs is that to get to the desired destination afterlife you have to be apart of that very faith, if you are not Muslim, Jewish or Christian you are a kafir or infidel or non believer. In our faith, you can be anybody and find waheguru. Religion, caste, colour, creed are all irrelevant. The concept of kafir or infidel are against sikhi and waheguru. This is evident in the concept of langar and the architecture of Harmandhir Sahib. I think we have forgotten that and moved far from the principal of what our gurus set.

After all, our gurus and Mahaan shaheed gave kurbani for people to practice other faiths and Shiri Guru Hargobind Ji even constructed a Mosque, for the worship of Allah/Waheguru by Muslims as per their rehat. The khalsa faujh are the protectors of peoples faiths not destroyers.

Now, I'm off to start my own jatha that sheikh fareed was Muslim lol, joke!

WJKK WJKF

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WJKK WJKF,

Brothers, sorry for the late reply, iv logged on when possible to read everybody's contributions to the topic.

I think its a case of were gona have to agree to disagree on this one lol.

UKL = Agreed

My opinion is based on what I believe our Guru Granth Sahib Ji is telling us, I refer to shabads "aval Allah noor upaaya- ang 1350" and "koi bole ram ram- ang 885" for anyone who's interested.

UKL = Absolutely ... Allah is indeed a name for God ... as is Ram ... however, that does not mean we are talking about a God that speaks only Arabic or a Indian king called Ram Chander.

I personally do not want to participate on insulting any religious prophet like the prophet Muhammad,

UKL = Paji stating historical facts from the Prophet's Sunnah and substantiated in the Quran should not be interpreted as insults. For example, if Sidhu the head of Dera Sirsa is well known to be a rapist, Sikhs should not be told to keep quiet about such blatant wrongs. If Manu Rishi of the Hindu's says all dalits deserve subjugation or death we cannot keep quiet for fear of upsetting the apple cart.

as we all know how it feels to us when someone insults someone we hold close, whatever our claim is, we don't need to cause insult, because if our gurus didn't offend on that basis, why should we?

UKL = When someone insults our Guru Sahib of course it hurts us ... but we shouldn't let that derail us from our mission of Sarbat Da Bhala ... and ultimately our Guru Sahiban were perfect human beings who only spread peace, oppose the murder of the innocents, opposed slavery and slaveowners and worked tirelessly for Sarbat Da Bhala and nor were they involved in rape, peadophilia as other famous spiritual leaders are provably known to be.

Also I have not said that everything about Islam and Hinduism is right at all,

UKL = Agreed

my point was waheguru exists in all

UKL = 100% agreed

and it's us who feel insecure to say not an iota of truth exists in any other faith about waheguru.

UKL = 100% agreed

Various brothers have stated it could be sheikh Ibrahim's saloks and that the sources I have read from are ever bias or inaccurate, however, the source I read from is my Guru, Shiri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and when my guru speaks, my guru says "salok sheikh fareed" which is really the full stop for me.

UKL = I respect your viewpoint on that (though I disagree with you since there was more than Sheikh Farid in the spiritual line)

Also, on the topic some have stated that Sufism is not apart of Islam as they reject the prophet Muhammad?

UKL = Absolutely Paji, that is one of the central points ... that how can Baba Farid Ji Maharaj be considered Muslim when they rejected Prophet Muhammad as the ultimate role model for humanity?

The majority of sufi sects I am aware of are Muslim and don't reject the prophet Muhammad, they hold Ali as the successor of Islam after the death of the prophet Mohammed where as the orthodox Muslims do not condone this.

UKL = Respectfully Paji, you seem to be confusing Shia Islam with the Sufi tradition. Shia believe in Ali as the correct Caliph (because of course as Muhammad's cousin he got to marry Muhammad's daughter Fatima). The Sufi tradition that Baba Farid Ji Maharaj expounded rejected slavery, peadophilia and the murder of innocent human beings as justified in the Quran and Sunnah (life history) of Prophet Muhammad.

Also Sufism has a more mystic, spiritual version ... where Allah is within everything and is everywhere and the point of a sufi musalmaan is to merge back with Allah rather than go to a specific place in the afterlife, this view is very similar to our dharam in principal.

UKL = As you have stated Paji, Sufism as expounded by Baba Farid Ji Maharaj was wholly in tandem with Gurmat. It's important to recognise that this form is outside of Islam. If I believe that Allah is indeed one of the many names of the One God that does not make me UKLondonSikh a Muslim (as i'm sure you'll agree). Those Sufi's who consider themselves Muslims believe 100% in the life actions of Prophet Muhammad and 100% of what the Holy Quran states in respect of slavery, child marraige (paedophilia) and the murder of non-Muslims.

The view that Entertainers like the late, great Nustat Fateh Ali Khan would do anything for a quick buck is a little crude. Who are we to judge someone else's spiritual advancement in their own faith?

UKL = Paji, absolutely, i would never dare to presume where NFAK stood and he might be a better human being than me ... but it's well known that enetertainers will sing dharmic geet one minute and the next be doing be supportive of something totally contrary to the ethos of Truth (Gurmat).

The sufi celebrate waheguru, understanding the oneness of god in their own way as do we,

UKL = Agreed non-Muslims do indeed exactly do that. But NFAK it is my understanding did not bow before Maharaj. And NFAK did consider himself a Muslim (which true Sufi Sants do not).

yet my post about bhangra artist who cause caste divide go unseen, contradicting themselves by saying caste is great, then in a dharmic geet they sing caste is wrong.

UKL = I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. The Muslim Jatt record label famous in Birmigham controls all the said bhangra artists you refer to by the way.

My topic on this didn't get much attention yet these people are able to poison young understanding on sikh principals and make a quick buck by doing so.

UKL = I 100% agree with you Paji. All Sikh Channel viewers should politely but firmly complain to DS Bal about the programming output of the sister station that he de facto runs with the Muslim Jatt bhangra record label from Birmigham.

My point was that just because someone is a musalmaan, Hindu or Jew, does not mean they know no truth of parmaatma,

UKL = I personally 100% agree with you Paji. I'm sure Mehtab Singh Paji and SikhKosh Ji do as well (and did not make that point either).

language used by sheikh fareed meets both gurmat and anti gurmat

UKL = Paji none of the language used by Baba Farid Ji Maharaj is anti-Gurmat (all is in tandem if you don't interpret every word literally)

e.g being buried in a grave and hell,

UKL = Using such terms (that Semitic faith believers understand) to illustrate truths is in no way against Gurmat

their are many shabad in the gurbani that state idol worship and praying towards Mecca are inadequate,

UKL = Agreed

however their are many shabad which also refer to the oneness of parmaatma who has many names from every part of the world and out.

UKL = ParmAathma is indeed One. However, all ideologies are not also one. Islam, Christianity and Hinduism condone Slavery. Sikhi opposes Slavery in totality. Sikhi and the other faiths cannot all be right upon a subject of human rights and morality where they disagree. Nevertheless, the God of all those who condone Slavery and oppose Slavery is still One.

In my opinion, to think the world has known NO truth about god before sikhi is silly,

UKL = I 100% agree with you Paji

the reason behind sikhi, Guru Nanaks Nirmal Panth is because the state of man kinds paap had blinded man kind, hence "sat guru Nanak pargateya meethi dundh jag chanan hoa". Guru Nanak enlightened the very parts of the world he reached. Who so ever wants to walk on the path of Nanak must play the game of love and put their head on their palm.

UKL = Agreed

Many people from other faiths do the same thing, "Islam" means to surrender, one has to surrender to gods will.

UKL = Agreed that millions of good Muslims do so. However, do you believe that those who sell human beings for financial reward and enslave fellow human beings are surrendering to God's will. Have Hindu Rishi's like Manu (and his admirers) surrendered to God's will when they subjugate innocent human beings on the basis of their caste? The answer is of course obvious Paji.

We cannot say that people of other faiths have not surrendered to waheguru, it's people who interpret this wrongly, as in terrorism and the killing of innocent people.

UKL = Respectfully Paji, read what the Quran, the Bible and Manu Smriti have to say first and then you will see that the followers are only following the message.

The gurbani tells us, that a person can find waheguru simply sitting in their home by surrendering. Again, the principal between parmaatma and his creation is this in its very essence without any stamp of any religion.

UKL = 100% agreed. No pilgrimages are needed (particularly for Sikhs who have started copying Hindu's, Christians and Muslims in that respect in recent times)

I strive to see pramaatmaa in every individual I meet irregards of their religion or ethnicity. I am no higher or lower to a Muslim, I am a learner, a sikh of guru Nanak ... we will all inevitably be judged on our action.

UKL = 100% agreed. Our life actions (not our religion) are what distinguish between us as Sikhi constantly highlights.

We can see the fundamental flaws in other peoples faiths, yet we cannot sort out our own problems within our faith which was perfect and now has been factioned and fragmented.

UKL = Agreed

We can insult someone else's prophet which they hold close,

UKL = Paji how can quotes from the Quran or facts about an individual's life be regarded as insults Paji. Indira Gandhi was a terrorist - fact. Facts are neutral and cannot be insults.

we allow people who call themselves sikhs and at the same time mock our gurus principals.

UKL = 100% agree with you Paji

Pramaatma has no bounds, Pramaatma is everything, everyone and all knowing. To think that sikhs have the monopoly on Pramaatma is simply ahankar. The thing that makes us different from the majority of the major worlds religions is we do not preach that we are the ultimate people, we are simply learners, we are Akal purakhs faujh, the khalsa, we protect everybody who suffers injustice ... Every sikh is obliged to tell others of their faith as our gurus did,

UKL = 100% agree with you Paji

however we do not need to carry out Dawa, the defragmentation of another's faith to highlight their own faith.

UKL = Parchaar and highlighting the truth cannot be construed negatively Paji

UKL = Otherwise none of us would ever be allowed to criticise Sidhu the rapist boss of Dera Sira or David Koresh of the Branch Davidian cult or Asa Ram AND Garib Dass (Ballan) and the like.

The unity of god as I have stated does not mean that a sikh can idol worship or dishonour their kesh or use tobacco (any kurehit) as if we call ourselves sikh, we have to abide by the law given to us as sikhs. That means the sikhs that lived and called themselves sikhs pre guru gobind Singh, lived within the then rehat, after 1699 dasmesh pita gave us the gift of amrit, then great Mahaan sikhs who lived as sikhs pre amrit took amrit and adopted the khalsa, as did many others as this was the new maryada that we should all aspire to live as sikhs and take amrit.

UKL = 100% agree with you.

I think it was veer Mehab Singh that asked me whether it is ok for someone who cuts their hair, smokes tobacco and consumes alcohol to matha tekh SGGS ji, as we can take sikhi with a pinch of salt, well it happens all around the U.K on a Sundays divan. Many sikhs are sehaj dhari, smoke and consume alcohol? I don't quite understand your point?

UKL = I 100% agree with you Sikhiseeker Paji. Anyone that bows before Maharaj is indeed a Sikh. Whether their life actions are good or bad does not come into it.

People already take sikhi with a pinch of salt, that's my issue and what brings me to discuss matters on here. Muslims have their own rehat as do Jews and Christians. The thing that sets us aside as sikhs is that to get to the desired destination afterlife you have to be apart of that very faith, if you are not Muslim, Jewish or Christian you are a kafir or infidel or non believer. In our faith, you can be anybody and find waheguru. Religion, caste, colour, creed are all irrelevant. The concept of kafir or infidel are against sikhi and waheguru. This is evident in the concept of langar and the architecture of Harmandhir Sahib. I think we have forgotten that and moved far from the principal of what our gurus set.

UKL = I 100% agree with you Paji and I am glad that you see it like that.

After all, our gurus and Mahaan shaheed gave kurbani for people to practice other faiths

UKL = 100% agreed as we see with Dhan Dhan Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Maharaj who gave their life for the human rights of believers of all religions and none to believe in their own faith.

and Shiri Guru Hargobind Ji even constructed a Mosque, for the worship of Allah/Waheguru by Muslims as per their rehat.

UKL = Guru Sahib assisted ordinary innocent Muslims to reconstruct collapsed walls on their Masjid. As Sikhs it is not against Gurmat for us to do that if there is an earthquake, for example. But I don't think it's up to us expend financial resources building places of worship for other religions (given how much we already waste on our Gurdwara's) when child hunger, malaria, poverty are issues that need resources to be spent upon first.

The khalsa faujh are the protectors of peoples faiths not destroyers.

UKL = 100% agreed

Now, I'm off to start my own jatha

UKL = I for one would like your jatha much more than many currently more famous!

that sheikh fareed was Muslim lol, joke!

UKL = Haha ... but no that I honestly can't tolerate in my heart if ever mentioned in seriousness ... as to me and many Sikhs ... Baba Farid Ji Maharaj was Sikh regardless of their ancestry.

WJKK WJKF

UKL = Paji 95% of what you have posted is correct. However, i have just highlighted some important points where I strongly disagree with you. VJKK VJKF

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UKL = Paji 95% of what you have posted is correct. However, i have just highlighted some important points where I strongly disagree with you. VJKK VJKF

WJKK, WJKF

Again, nice post veer ji, obviously I disagree with slavery, rape and murder and injustice done to any insaan and as I stated, I have no issue with shiekh baba farid being Muslim, also im aware of the Sunni/Shea divide and in my research, I have only come across Sufi Muslims. The points which I have brought up are only points in my opinion on what yourself, Mehtab Singh and Sikh kosh have suggested.

Parchar and dawa are two very different things, I think you may of misunderstood me on this one. Every Sikh should be a pacharak of his faith, but i dont believe Sikhs should break down another's faith in what ever instance, our faith speaks for itself as again we do not have no concept of kafir.

The beauty of our Parchar is that we simply sing the praises of waheguru and as great musicians can make people happy, bring tears to people's eyes with emotion, make people dance with joy and put people to sleep with a soothing melody, guru nanaks Kirtan and Parchar awoke peoples sleeping souls and re-united them with the one, some call him ram, some call him Kudah, some call him Gusain and some call him Allah, he is still the same being, known by all who are faithful.

Always good to read your posts veer, keep it up!

WJKK, WJKF

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WJKK, WJKF

Dear Mehtab Singh, Sikhkosh and uklondonsikh,

I wanted to bring to your attention this sufi Kalaam sung by the late sufi ustaad Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. It demonstrates the truth of waheguru in some of its beautiful lyrical content and also has references to the prophet Muhammad, as In debate, it was suggested that sufi's reject the prophet Muhammad, which clearly is not so and evident in the quwalli.

A respectful and humble benti to my sikh brothers and sisters, please do not start an insult thread on this quwalli, ustaad NFAK, it's lyrical content or the prophet Muhammad. There is a certain way a sikh of guru gobind Singh ji should conduct themselves at all times, and silly comments about the above mentioned will not be hopefully tolerated by the moderators of the site.

WJKK, WJKF

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Brother what does NOI mean?

UKL = Paji the NOI (Nation of Islam) are a pseudo-racist cult that worship an early 20th century USA criminal as being God on Earth.

obviously I disagree with slavery, rape and murder and injustice done to any insaan

UKL = And so did Baba Farid Ji Maharaj which is conclusive proof bir'ay that Baba Farid Ji were non-Muslim. As the slavery, rape and murders supported in the Quran (Prophet Muhammad's own dictated words) must be supported if one is to claim that they are a Muslim, which Baba Farid Ji were clearly not.

Parchar and dawa are two very different things, I think you may of misunderstood me on this one.

UKL = Agreed Paji

Every Sikh should be a pacharak of his faith, but i dont believe Sikhs should break down another's faith in what ever instance, our faith speaks for itself as again we do not have no concept of kafir. The beauty of our Parchar is that we simply sing the praises of waheguru and as great musicians can make people happy, bring tears to people's eyes with emotion, make people dance with joy and put people to sleep with a soothing melody, guru nanaks Kirtan and Parchar awoke peoples sleeping souls and re-united them with the one, some call him ram, some call him Kudah, some call him Gusain and some call him Allah, he is still the same being, known by all who are faithful.

UKL = 100% agreed with the caveat that anti-human actions such as the caste system, slavery, peadophilia, rape, murder of innocents must always be condemned regardless of the so-called divine personality perpetrating them whether that the various humans believed to be God incarnate such as Sidhu Jatt of Dera Sirsa, Garib Dass of Dera Ballan, Dhillon Jatt of the Radha Swami's, David Koresh of the Branch Davidian Cult, AsaRam in India etc

I wanted to bring to your attention this sufi Kalaam sung by the late sufi ustaad Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan.

UKL = Paji for the avoidance of doubt NFAK did claim to be Muslim (albeit Sufi influenced). True Sufi's by their rejection of slavery, rape etc and their rejection of Prophet Muhammad are non-Muslims. Thus, there is a clear distinction. True Sufi's like Baba Farid Ji Maharaj were non-Muslim ... whilst there are so-called Sufi Muslims who are more liberal than mainstream Islam, but nevertheless believe fully in the Prophet Muhammad, his Sunnah and the Quran.

It demonstrates the truth of waheguru in some of its beautiful lyrical content

UKL = Up until about 13 minutes I would agree with you ...

and also has references to the prophet Muhammad,

UKL = However, where the kalaam states that Prophet Muhammad was the ultimate role model (most truthful beacon) to humanity, I strongly disagree as those Arab practises which Muhammad participated in were against the very essence of humanity and totally opposite to Gurmat. Forcing innocent children into slavery and then selling them off for personal financial gain is consciously irreconcilable with anyone that has faith in one God. And this is why Baba Farid Ji Maharaj were non-Muslim and absolutely so.

as In debate, it was suggested that sufi's reject the prophet Muhammad, which clearly is not so and evident in the quwalli.

UKL = Paji as explained above NFAK is a Muslim first (and influenced by Sufism second). Presumably you are aware that most Muslim musicians claim to be Sufi influenced since the Prophet Muhammad condemned music as immoral (whereas slavery or rape of female slaves did not bother him as morally wrong as seen in the Holy Quran and his life history).

UKL = Just to add Paji, Fateh Ali Khan (NFAK's father) was an ardent Muslim League supporter from Jalandhar. The Muslim League advocated that all of Doaba (which includes Jalandhar obviously) be annexed to Pakistan after the McMahon line was announced. All Muslim League supporters in Punjab were resolutely in support of this and initiated what violent measures they could to ethnically Sikhs out of current day east Punjab (as they had already pretty much succeeded in Western Punjab). Given that NFAK (born in 1948) was one of the most vocal supporters in Pakistan of Muslim League dogs such as the Rajput Moh'd Jinnah and the Brahmin Moh'd Allama Iqbal who were central to the creation of Pakistan (amidst the Genocide of 20% of the Sikh population in 1947 in Pakistan ... the equivalent of if 6 million Sikhs were killed today) I would humbly suggest again that entertainers who make shows of inter-faith unity for financial purposes ought not to be treated as credible sources. The bottom line is that Allah (as defined by Gurbani) is my God and yours but I would hope to die a Shaheed rather than give praise to those who justified slavery, rape, paedophilia and the beheading and amputations of innocent human beings as so many of our Shaheeds bravely refused did like Bhai Mati Das, Bhai Sati Das, Bhai Dayala Ji to name but three of our Gurmukhs, who had full faith on one God but like Baba Farid Ji Maharaj also refused to surrender to the ideology of Prophet Muhammad.

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