What Is Naam

[sat]

Thank you, as long as i have the blessing of brothers like you, i am truly blessed.

And God bless you too WJKK WJKF.

[harsharan000]

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

So, harsharan0000 Sahib Ji, where does one get this Naam? Which Guru/which means exists in this world to obtain this Naam? Please detail for the Sangat's benefit. Thanks.

Dear ms514,

By His grace, I am going to bring you forth the answer of your direct, valuable and a very nice question, through the Bani.

Sree Guru Ram Das Maharaj, in His pure paviter Bani in Raag Maaroo, tells us:

mai man tan khoj dhandholi-aa ki-o paa-ee-ai akath kahaanee.

I have searched through and through, with my mind and body; but how can I attain, or find this (Nam)Unspoken Speech?

Here, He is confirming us, that, He has heard a lot about the mahima of Nam, but alas, where to find it? Who knows about it? Who can show me the way to get and realize it? Some try to find it in books, others at temples or pilgrimages, others by "tap", by moortee pujas, others by fasting or torturing their bodies...etc...etc and etc

Then in the next line, He Himself is giving us the answer, to this arised question.

sant janaa mil paa-i-aa sun akath kathaa man bhaanee.

Meeting with the humble Saints, I have found it; listening to the Unspoken Speech, my mind is pleased.

With this line, that this Nam, is got as Gurparsad from the Saints, the Gurmukhs, as they come with the wealth of this very Nam, to distribute it freely, to those brave wadbhagees, who go to their shelter, without being bothered of their origin, or caste or creed, or the opinion of the world, as to what will the world say ...like he has become mad, has become a shame for our community, by going in the company of these "frauds" ......because that is how we people call those Gurmukhs.....not there are no frauds in the world, but just as we are narrow minded, and have limited the teachings of Gurmat within the 4 walls of our polluted minds, so we fail to recognize a Gurmukh, if any.

But we can see, what Sree Guru Ram Das is telling us in the above 2 lines.

Brothers, Gurmat is eternal.

It is not meant for a particular period of time, or for a particular class, creed, caste or community ...it is a evergreen fountain for all the humanity.

Whosoever drinks from it, shall have eternal life.

And moreover, He says, by doing Nam Simran, the Anhad Bani is heard within ourselves, and the consequence of this is, that the mind is defeated.

Hearing the Anhad Bani is equivalent to drinking the Amrit of Nam, the Nectar of Nam, within ourselves, made by Akal Purukh Himself.

That Amrit, is the one our Guru Sahibans mention again and again in the Bani, the one which by having it, we become intoxicated with the true love for Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

This Amrit the more we have it, the more we become pure and paviter.

This Amrit, Wahiguru has kept in equal mesure within us, for each and everyone, without any discrimination of nationality or dharam, or limitations, all the 24 hours,unlike we humans do.

The only requirement according to Guru Rm Das is to meet a Gurmukh, and get from Him, the Gurparsad, the bakshish, the bhed, the jugtee. All the Guru sahibans were Gurmukhs themselves.

They came to be an example, for us humans, as per how to love Him and how to merge in Him

So then what happens, once we listen to the Akath Katha, the Anhad Bani, the Shabad Dhun?

As we become mature in the practice of Nam Simran, the mind is defeated. And once this is done, we shed all coverings and impurities from our souls, and then, we merge in Him, and become Him, such is the mahanta of His Nam.

Attee Sundar Manmohan Pyaro.

[luckysingh99]

Excellent response that I very much enjoyed reading more than once ! :biggrin2:

Dear ms514,

By His grace, I am going to bring you forth the answer of your direct, valuable and a very nice question, through the Bani.

Sree Guru Ram Das Maharaj, in His pure paviter Bani in Raag Maaroo, tells us:

mai man tan khoj dhandholi-aa ki-o paa-ee-ai akath kahaanee.
I have searched through and through, with my mind and body; but how can I attain, or find this (Nam)Unspoken Speech?

Here, He is confirming us, that, He has heard a lot about the mahima of Nam, but alas, where to find it? Who knows about it? Who can show me the way to get and realize it? Some try to find it in books, others at temples or pilgrimages, others by "tap", by moortee pujas, others by fasting or torturing their bodies...etc...etc and etc

Then in the next line, He Himself is giving us the answer, to this arised question.

sant janaa mil paa-i-aa sun akath kathaa man bhaanee.
Meeting with the humble Saints, I have found it; listening to the Unspoken Speech, my mind is pleased.

With this line, that this Nam, is got as Gurparsad from the Saints, the Gurmukhs, as they come with the wealth of this very Nam, to distribute it freely, to those brave wadbhagees, who go to their shelter, without being bothered of their origin, or caste or creed, or the opinion of the world, as to what will the world say ...like he has become mad, has become a shame for our community, by going in the company of these "frauds" ......because that is how we people call those Gurmukhs.....not there are no frauds in the world, but just as we are narrow minded, and have limited the teachings of Gurmat within the 4 walls of our polluted minds, so we fail to recognize a Gurmukh, if any.

But we can see, what Sree Guru Ram Das is telling us in the above 2 lines.

Brothers, Gurmat is eternal.

It is not meant for a particular period of time, or for a particular class, creed, caste or community ...it is a evergreen fountain for all the humanity.

Whosoever drinks from it, shall have eternal life.

And moreover, He says, by doing Nam Simran, the Anhad Bani is heard within ourselves, and the consequence of this is, that the mind is defeated.

Hearing the Anhad Bani is equivalent to drinking the Amrit of Nam, the Nectar of Nam, within ourselves, made by Akal Purukh Himself.

That Amrit, is the one our Guru Sahibans mention again and again in the Bani, the one which by having it, we become intoxicated with the true love for Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

This Amrit the more we have it, the more we become pure and paviter.

This Amrit, Wahiguru has kept in equal mesure within us, for each and everyone, without any discrimination of nationality or dharam, or limitations, all the 24 hours,unlike we humans do.

The only requirement according to Guru Rm Das is to meet a Gurmukh, and get from Him, the Gurparsad, the bakshish, the bhed, the jugtee. All the Guru sahibans were Gurmukhs themselves.

They came to be an example, for us humans, as per how to love Him and how to merge in Him

So then what happens, once we listen to the Akath Katha, the Anhad Bani, the Shabad Dhun?

As we become mature in the practice of Nam Simran, the mind is defeated. And once this is done, we shed all coverings and impurities from our souls, and then, we merge in Him, and become Him, such is the mahanta of His Nam.

Attee Sundar Manmohan Pyaro.

[luckysingh99]

please can anyone tell me that when we are trying to become one with vaheguru ji through naam simran meditation, does the mind fight back as to make us turn away, because sometimes i feel like there is war going on inside my head between my atma which is vaheguru or trying to reach him and my mind which is manmukh ?

It's a long ongoing battle.

My advice is to keep going, keep going and give it all you can.......and keep at it !!

I know that there are times when one can sit there and continue japping, but the mind keeps bringing in thought after thought and distractions..one after another.....such that, when you finish/stop or it's time to stop......you feel guilty and disgusted that you had all these thoughts all the while trying to do simran !

Don't give up.. keep going and keep trying..

Guru Nanak ji's says in sidh gosht that ''one may have to chew iron with teeth of wax to get to waheguru, but with the use of Shabad, this is all possible for the devoted gurmukh''

He knows if you are making the effort even though there has been many times when I have felt that my thought's were unnecessary and complete sacrilege to the name of waheguru.

But believe me, he knows and for every one step you take, he takes ten or more towards you.

[BarinderSingh]

Thank you harsharan for taking the time out to write on this topic. You have brought up some interesting points. I started this thread to get input, and to search this topic deeper.

You speak of doing simran of Naam only. What do you mean by simran?

This is what I have come across so far in Gurbani:

ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਮਿਲੈ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ

सतिगुरु दाता मिलै मिलाइआ ॥

Saṯgur ḏāṯā milai milā▫i▫ā.

The True Guru, the Giver, is met when the Lord leads us to meet Him.

ਪੂਰੈ ਭਾਗਿ ਮਨਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਵਸਾਇਆ

पूरै भागि मनि सबदु वसाइआ ॥

Pūrai bẖāg man sabaḏ vasā▫i▫ā.

Through perfect destiny, the Shabad is enshrined in the mind.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਹਰਿ ਸਚੇ ਕੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਣਿਆ

नानक नामु मिलै वडिआई हरि सचे के गुण गावणिआ ॥८॥९॥१०॥

Nānak nām milai vadi▫ā▫ī har sacẖe ke guṇ gāvaṇi▫ā. ||8||9||10||

O Nanak, the greatness of the Naam is obtained by chanting the Glorious Praises of the True Lord. ||8||9||10|| ang 115

Different Shabad on same ang of 115

ਸਬਦੈ ਸਾਦੁ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਤਾ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣਹਿ

सबदै सादु जाणहि ता आपु पछाणहि ॥

Sabḏai sāḏ jāṇėh ṯā āp pacẖẖāṇėh.

Those who know the essence of the Shabad, understand their own selves.

ਨਿਰਮਲ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਬਦਿ ਵਖਾਣਹਿ

निरमल बाणी सबदि वखाणहि ॥

Nirmal baṇī sabaḏ vakāṇėh.

Immaculate is the speech of those who chant the Word of the Shabad.

ਸਚੇ ਸੇਵਿ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਨਿ ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮੰਨਿ ਵਸਾਵਣਿਆ

सचे सेवि सदा सुखु पाइनि नउ निधि नामु मंनि वसावणिआ ॥५॥

Sacẖe sev saḏā sukẖ pā▫in na▫o niḏẖ nām man vasāvaṇi▫ā. ||5||

Serving the True One, they find a lasting peace; they enshrine the nine treasures of the Naam within their minds. ||5||

So far what is Naam question has not been answered. However Gurbani points to serving Vaheguru and chanting his praises to attain Naam.

On a unrelated topics you have one theme in your posts, which is the promotion of finding a Gurmukh to receive Gurparsad.

The only requirement according to Guru Rm Das is to meet a Gurmukh, and get from Him, the Gurparsad, the bakshish, the bhed, the jugtee. All the Guru sahibans were Gurmukhs themselves.

I would disagree with your interpretation because the Gurmukh does not need to be found for a Sikh that is. The Guru (Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji) is there for us to understand. Gurparsad is not for a Gurmukh to give, but only to receive. Only the Guru can provide anyone with Gurparsad. Finding a Gurmukh to learn and find a positive influence is great. It makes a person drive harder for Naam. Gurmukhs put a lost soul in the correct path, but never take the place of the Guru. The Guru is Vaheguru and Vaheguru is the Guru. However the same does not work for a Gurmukh as it does work between Vaheguru and Guru. The Guru is not the production of Vaheguru but himself. A Gurmukh is a production of Vaheguru after following the specific instructions given by Shabad Guru to where Gurparsad was received to become a Gurmukh. The Gurmukh once was caught in maya, but the Guru was and never will be caught in maya.

In one post you write Guru Ravi Das ji. The Guru (Shabad Guru) never called Bhagat Ravi Das ji as Guru. Why do you call him as Guru?

[harsharan000]

Brother Barinder Jee,

you have full right and choice to disagree. And I know for sure, it is not you alone, but many many more. I will try my best to answer your questions, in the following lines.

It is not much your fault. The society, the samaaj in which we are brewed and brought up, plays an important role in moulding our character, our way of thinking. It is a pity, that while having such high teachings of Gurmat, we have been unconsciously misled and thus our horizon of vision has been narrowed.

We are stuck in rules, regulations, do´s; dont´s... a very big list of these things, so if anything does not fit into the 4 walls of these preconcepts, it means, it is not valid, and it must be wrong.

That is not Gurmat. Gurmat if understood in the correct sense and followed literally, it would widen our horizons and make us more mature.

It is a great unjustice to our Guru Sahibans, that the highest teachings given by them to us, have been limited by our poor spiritual vision, and then if we get in the company of people like us, naturally we will think, wow, we must be on the right tracks, we are so many ....

We are not here to do any promotion of anything nor anybody, except sifat salahee, except to sing the glory of Wahiguru Akal Purukh. That is all.

Spirituality is no politics or business, so to say, we should promote it, to gain something out of it.

Here, only Wahiguru is the real Shenshah.

Nam is another name for that consciouss energy or power, known as Shabad, God or Paramatma. Nam has created everything that exists. It is beyond our mind´s perception, so for many of us it is just a concept. But the Saints tell us, it is the very Creator Power, full of countless virtues...like love, mercy, forgiveness, goodness, just to name a few of them...

Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj says in Sukhmani Sahib:

Nam ke dharay, khand brahmand

Nam ke dharay, agas patal

This means, Nam sustains all the worlds and universes. Nam sustains the upper (astral causal, spiritual)realms, and the neither world.

At other place the Bani says: Jeta keeta, teta Nao,bin Navay nahee kou thau

Everything that exists, has been made by Nam, and without this very Nam, there is no other shore to lean on, means, to get salvation.

The moment Wahiguru withdraws back this Nam, we say he/she dies, or there is parlay(dissolution) and mahaparlay(grand dissolution)

Now this Nam or Shabad, is inside each and everyone of us, irrespective of colour, caste, creed, or mazab. Our soul, in essence is a particle of it. And this Nam, is the fountain of everlasting bliss and happiness. It is called Amrit also in the Bani, which by tasting it, the soul gets eternal life(param gat), by getting freedom from mind, maya and kal, then it merges in that Nam or Shabad, and becomes one with it

But the thing is, Nam, while being inside us, we are unaware of it, we do not know how to make it manifest. As stated above, Nam is already within everybody,whether we are consciouss about it or not, but it is there, and the proof is, that is why we are alive also.

So now the question is, how to get in touch with it, or how or what to do, to manifest that very Nam, within ourselves. For that also, the Bani has ample answers for us. Let us see some quotations from the Bani.

In Raag Maajh, Sree Guru Arjun Dev says:

naam a-ukhaDh mo ka-o saaDhoo dee-aa.
The Holy Saint, has given me the Medicine of the Naam.

Raag Gwaarayaree, Guru Arjun Dev

Sant parsaad, japai har naa-o.
By the Parsad of Nam of the Saints, one chants the Lord's Name. So if Sant is also called Guru, His Parsad, in that way is also called Gurparsad.

Then when one gets this bhed, this bakshish of Nam Simran, one should do khob kamaee of it. As much as one can. The Bani says: Saas Saas simroh Gobind. The more we do this simran, the more we attract upon us His Grace, His Daya Meher.

Because ultimately, it is His garce which does the job of purifying us, and making us worthy in merging in Him.

Or do we moorakhs think that, it is our feeble efforts which bring us closer to Him?

Our sins are countless, so even if we did bhakti, non stop for countless yugas, even then it would not be enough, to get our sins wiped away.

The thing is, mostly in all talks or writings, Gurparsad is misused as grace, which can be, but in this case, it is a bakshish, a parsad,a daan, from the Guru, the Sadh, the Sant, the Gurmukh, to the seeker, the chela, the sikh, the disciple.

Here the enlihgtened one is the giver, and the seeker sikh, is the one who receives the "daat", the "daan".

So you see, the Bani uses many terms for that enlightened being, such as : Guru, Gurmukh, Sant, Sant Jan, Sadh, Brahamgyani, Satguru...but all these terms refer to that same being, who has merged has His consciousness in Akal Purukh. And this daat, or Gurparsad, is given to those wadbhagee jeevas only, which are marked by the Lord, and it is for these jeevas, that Sant Jan come into this world.

That is why at many places says:wadbhagee jeevas. They are wadbhagee, not because of any wealth or material possesions, but because, they are marked by Wahiguru to believe and practice Gurmat, in terms of devotion as Nam Simran, and reach back to Him. They are wadbhagee, because from all the countless souls, they are chosen by His grace, to be freed forever, from the cycle of biths and deaths.

Some may say or think, what about the rest of us? Well, for that reason, the Bani stresses so much on Sadh kee sangat, on the raen, on the dhoor, of Sant Janas. This dhoor is not the material dust, but the glance of mercy, of daya meher, of the real knowledge of Wahiguru, the real meaning or understanding of the teachings of Gurmat .

But, how can we go to a Sadh ever? He,if exists, is slandered by all, as being a fraud.

Let us ask ourselves, fraud?

When He is just trying to remove our agyanta, our brahams, and is telling us that, to merge in Wahiguru, only Nam bhakti is required, and that also as per the Bani. So simple, and we just abuse them creating a havoc, a scene...

What to say then, about all those who have adulterated the Bani and created outer rites, outer rituals, mixed politics with Gurmat, and have thus driven away from the path to Wahiguru...those are the real culprits, the real frauds...nobody arises voice against them, as thay are also created and supported by us ...

Guru is a highest state of consciousness, who has permeated each cell with Nam, the purest of all. Guru is not the body. Guru is immortal, and immortal is the soul, the consciousness, that spark of light, and it has to be so, that is why, soul or Guru can merge in the Fountain of Light (Satnam).

Guru(Light, Shabad) is not made of any of the 5 tatwas, which are transient and perishable. Though they may need the vehicle(physicall body) and use it, for the benefit of the human kind, to make us available the spiritual gems of Gurmat, not because they are limited, but becasue, we are limited, our budh, our chit is limited and dirty. The body made of 5 tatwas, is not the Guru, but that Consciousness, which imparts us those truths, and make them known and understood.

For example, we all know, Sree Guru Ram Das and Sree Guru Arjun Dev were the embodiments of Truth. Prithi Chand, while being the son of one Satguru and the brother of the other Satguru , he was characterless.

And that also, while living with them under the same roof. This makes us think. If the physical bodies of Amar Das and Arjun Dev, were Guru, and Prithi Chand had their darshan mostly all times, why could he not shed his evil tendencies?

This is suffice for us to understand, that Guru is not the body, but the power within that body, and that is the power of Nam manifested in them. Secondly, in spite of being physically so near that power, that Satguru, you do not get that profit of purification, because He has not chosen you for it. So it is His Mauj also, which plays a major role in our lives. The purification come by associating our minds and soul with Akahnd Jot, or Shabad or Nam within us. As long as we do not do this jugtee, we shall remain imperfect.

Nothing can happen without His Hukum.

That is why the Bani says: Aap japae, japeeyeh so Nao.

The whole world does some type of Nam Simran, but the Simran, which will uplift one from this world to His abode, is the one which is done, on the one got as Parsad, as Daan, as Bakshish, from a Gurmukh, a Satguru.

Brothers, Gurmat is very simple and clear, whether we like to hear or not some facts about it.

Again, it is not our fault totally, it is because we have been brought up and been taught to think in that way, as that is, what we have being seeing done since our very births.

The other question you ask, is why I say Guru Ravi Das.

As you may have come to see by now, from what has been written above, Guru is state of the highest consciusness, so if a mamulee soul can merge and become one with Wahiguru, because it has now attained that state, why not a blessed soul, by doing Nam bhakti, can attain that state of grace, refulgence and gyan of a Guru? Who are we to question it?

The Bani confirms us , that by doing the sadhna of Nam Simran, we can become Sadhs, and then Wahiguru comes and pervades in our tongues, or hearts...whatever we say and do , is per the will of Wahiguru, that is why the Bani says: Har jee baseh sadh kee rasna, sadh ke hirdey.

And futher it says. Nanak, Sadh, Prabh bhed nah bhahee.

O Nanak, there is no difference between a Sadhoo and Prabhu, Wahiguru....means, that particular Sadhoo, is the mirror, where Wahiguru can be looked at, as that Sadhoo, has imbued himself with Nam.

We poor limited moorakhs...

And moreover, Guru Ravi Das´Bani,like the others there, is added in the Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj, and has become a part and parcel of that Guru.

it is very unfair from our side, just because He is not from our community as a sikh or khalsa, so we call Him a bhagat, but from Guru Nanak to Gobind singh we call them Gurus, because we associate them as related to our culture and community.

That is why, I say , we poor moorakhs.

When Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj, Himself did not make any differences, and added His Bani in the Granth Sahib, who are we to say the contrary. All those highly spirtual biengs, whose Bani has been added in the Granth Sahib, are entitled as Guru Sahibans with full authority.

Guru is that "Jot" that "Gyan", that ªAnand", that consciouss power.

So what difference does it make, if you bring that with you, or you come and get it, the thing is, only when you have all that, only then that being is a Guru. Sant satgurus never ever say I am God, or one with God, but they say I am even unfit to be called a Gurmukh, as per their view, Akal Purukh is the Primal Guru...so Gurmukh means , one whose face is oriented towards the Guru, in this case, Wahiguru.

The adding of the banis of other Sants, Bhagats, in the Granth Sahib, is a sign of grace of Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj upon us and the future generations. The message He conveys us, is, that Gurmukhs, Sant Janas, are not confined to Punjab or Khalsa panth only. Wahiguru can choose to manifest Himself at any time and any place.

It is only, that we that we have to open our ears and eyes widely, and pay attention to what they say.

No Gurmukh will ever come to create any new religion, as it has been designed already by wahiguru Akal Purukh, that Nam is the panacea, the means for salvation for all mankind, not only in this Kal Yug era, but in all the 4 yugas.

P.S:

Once again, I ask with folded hands to forgive me, if I have hurt anybody´s feelings. My intention is only to serve and love Wahiguru, and that what I have learnt, share it with all my human brothers and sisters, as we are all His children.

Here only Gurmat and Wahiguru counts, no personal interests.

[harsharan000]

Naam Sunae, Naam Sangrehai, Naamae Liv Laavo
I hear the Naam, and I gather in the Naam(Nam Simran); I am lovingly attuned to the Naam(merging in Nam)

Raag Gauri Guru Arjan Dev

In this upper line of Sree Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj, He is revealing us the secret for our salvation and our union with Wahiguru Akal Purukh

We may wonder, why true Gurmukhs, Sants, lay so much importance on Nam Simran alone, as menas of realizing the divine within ourselves.

They say, all our entanglements are due to our simran of the world and its relations. It has its logic, as you think, so you become. Think of the world, you will be born again here. We go, where our desires are.

We love and yearn for our land, our mazab, our culture...naturally where will we go? Of course coming back in the wheel of births and deaths.

On the other side, dwell upon the Lord, and you shall merge in Him.

Simran, is also rememberance, is also deep thinking of something, and that simran, attaches ourselves, by creating a bond, with the objects of our thoughts.

But for us, Wahiguru or God is just a concept, as we have no personal contact with Him, none of our senses can perceive Him, or grasp Him, neither our sharp mind.

So, how to ever start a relation with Him?

As He is Alakh(can not be seen with these eyes), He is Nirankar(formless), thus, He is Agam(unaccesible).

Here is where our Guru Sahibans tell us: Har Simran meh Prabh Aap Nirankar,

This means, the formless Lord, has kept Himself available for us in His Simran.

Just see, how beautifully and in simple words, our Guru Sahibans have cleared away the road for us, so that, with faith we may walk on it, and reach our goal Wahiguru.

Can anybody being a brahman, a pandit, a gyani, a priest, a yogi, a learned one, with degrees from university in religion, ever explain us this mystery so clearly ...

Surely not.

That is why, not only for this reason, but many many more, the Bani mentions again and again Sadh kee sangat, because it is there where we learn and understand real spirituality in the correct sense, as they are the emodiment of that eternal Truth.

Guru Arjun Dev, confirms us this , in His ambrosial words below.

Har Maarag Saadhhoo Dhasiaa, Japeeai Guramanth
"The Saint, the Sadhoo, has shown me the way to the Lord, to meditate on the Gurmanter, the Parsad, given by Him"

This is what, the begining of the Bani says, and then it is repeated almost on each ang of the Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj.

Ik Onkar, Satgur Parsad. There is only one Lord, and He is realized by the parsad of that Guru.

We can see, if there is any doubt ever in understanding the Bani, surely there are other instances and statements somewhere, where the doubtful points are cleared.

These holy and enlightened people, do not calculate or guess on these matters, like the rest of the world. They themselves are the fountain of that True knowledge.

Just for our assuarance, we can take the Bani of any of these mahapurukhs, bhagats, Guru Sahibans, and go through it, we shall see by ourselves, that all of them, stress only on one Wahiguru, and the bhakti in terms of Nam Simran, to return back Home, and merge in Him.That´s it.

Nam Simran, is thus nothing but a technique, where we by practicing it, we dissociate first our mind from the body, and then the soul from the mind.

With different vehicles, like bicycles, cars, vans, ships, aeroplanes, rockets, etc, we can get transported to different places...but to get transported to the different spiritual realms, where Nam is flowing as Amrit, we need to reach there, and brothers, that alone can be possible by its Simran.

We have heard and read so many times, that he whosoever drinks that Amrit, is freed forever and attains salvation, by merging thus his /her soul in Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

So in order to have that Nectar of Immortality, Amrit Nam, we have to go there where it is being distributed by Him, and that is only possible by going there and having it there.

That Amrit of which our Guru Sahibans speak about, as seen, is within us, and it is the duty of each and every soul to go and have it.

It can not be brought in cups or buckets, as it is not material like the ones in our world, which are made from one of the 5 perishable tattwas.

If it was not so, long ago, our Guru Sahibans, and Bhagats, would have brought it for us and gave it to us.

That is why also, so much stress is laid upon Nam Simran, not just to displease us or to discourage us, as we are so much engrossed in our own made rites, rituals, rules and regulations.

But true Gurmukhs, will only talk about Wahiguru and His Nam, as apart from that, all is koor.

Bahut Janam vichrey thhe Madhao, ehe janam Tumare lekhe.

[harsharan000]

Barinder said:

Gurmukhs put a lost soul in the correct path, but never take the place of the Guru. The Guru is Vaheguru and Vaheguru is the Guru. However the same does not work for a Gurmukh as it does work between Vaheguru and Guru. The Guru is not the production of Vaheguru but himself. A Gurmukh is a production of Vaheguru after following the specific instructions given by Shabad Guru to where Gurparsad was received to become a Gurmukh. The Gurmukh once was caught in maya, but the Guru was and never will be caught in maya.

I am sorry to dissapoint you, but when you argue above that Gurmukhs are not Gurus, or one with Wahiguru....

For that misconception to be cleared, the Bani has an answer also

According to the following words of Sachay Patshah Guru Nanak Dev Maharaj in Raag Raamkali Dakhni:

ਆਪੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਆਪੇ ਦੇਵੈ ਆਪੇ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਆਇਆ

Aapae Guramukh, Aapae Dhaevai, Aapae Anmrith Peeaaeiaa

आपे गुरमुखि आपे देवै आपे अम्रितु पीआइआ

He Himself is the Gurmukh, and He Himself bestows the Ambrosial Nectar; He Himself leads us to drink it in.

So what does the Bani refer that the Gurmukh or Sant Jan give as Amrit and lead us to drink it? Does it not sound more logical, that He besows us the method of Nam Simran as Gurparsad? And leads us to drink it, means with that Nam Simran, He takes us into the inner planes where that Amrit Nam is showered non stop, all the 24 hours, so that we may drink it to our brim.

The Bani says: Amrit Nam, maha ras meetha, an din maan tan peeva.

This means, the Amrit of Nam is utterly sweet, and we can drink it day and night, trespassing the barriers of mind and body, within ourselves

We are all struggling souls on this plane, nobody is perfect, but surely if we can help each other by clearing any misconcepts, with humility and respect, then there should be no resentment, this is not a battle, to see who is stronger or right, that should not be the perspective, but as being brothers and children of one Wahiguru, to help each other with love.

[BarinderSingh]

Thank you for your response. I see where you are coming from, but once again I would disagree on some points. We are digressing from answering the question of what is Naam and how to achieve it. However the points you touched on are also important to address.

It is not much your fault. The society, the samaaj in which we are brewed and brought up, plays an important role in moulding our character, our way of thinking. It is a pity, that while having such high teachings of Gurmat, we have been unconsciously misled and thus our horizon of vision has been narrowed.

I do agree with you here as I have seen it firsthand. There is a irrational fear with some people when the word Sant is said. However on both sides of the extreme there is a phobia. Those that push the Sant word use it incorrectly and attribute it very loosely where critical analyse is thrown out the door. I consider myself on no side of this debate . Gurbani perfectly says Sants do exist. It is no mystery to me or irrational fear they do not exist.

It is a great unjustice to our Guru Sahibans, that the highest teachings given them to us, have been limited by our poor spiritual vision, and then if we get in the company of people like us, naturally we will think, wow, we must be on the right tracks, we are so many ....

Very correctly said, majority does not decide what is correct in Sikhi. The Guru is the judge in Sikhi.

Nam is another name for that consciouss energy or power, known as Shabad, God or Paramatma. Nam has created everything that exists. It is beyond our mind´s perception, so for many of us it is just a concept. But the Saints tell us, it is the very Creator Power, full of countless virtues...like love, mercy, forgiveness, goodness, just to name a few of them...

Do you know of any Shabad that supports this result of what Naam is?

Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj says in Sukhmani Sahib:

Nam ke dharay, khand brahmand

Nam ke dharay, agas patal

This means, Nam sustains all the worlds and universes. Nam sustains the upper (astral causal, spiritual)realms, and the neither world.

At other place the Bani says: Jeta keeta, teta Nao,bin Navay nahee kou thau

Everything that exists, has been made by Nam, and without this very Nam, there is no other shore to lean on, means, to get salvation.

Can you please put down the ang number so everyone can have the benefit of quick access to the whole shabad. It makes everything easier when discussing Gurbani. What you say above is what you perceive Naam does, but doesnt say what Naam is.

Now this Nam or Shabad, is inside each and everyone of us, irrespective of colour, caste, creed, or mazab. Our soul, in essence is a particle of it. And this Nam, is the fountain of everlasting bliss and happiness. It is called Amrit also in the Bani, which by tasting it, the soul gets eternal life(param gat), by getting freedom from mind, maya and kal, then it merges in that Nam or Shabad, and becomes one with it

But the thing is, Nam, while being inside us, we are unaware of it, we do not know how to make it manifest. As stated above, Nam is already within everybody,whether we are consciouss about it or not, but it is there, and the proof is, that is why we are alive also.

I somewhat agree, but will be searching more on this topic of what Naam does later. I was more interested in what Naam is.

So now the question is, how to get in touch with it, or how or what to do, to manifest that very Nam, within ourselves. For that also, the Bani has ample answers for us. Let us see some quotations from the Bani.

In Raag Maajh, Sree Guru Arjun Dev says:

naam a-ukhDh mo ka-o saaDhoo dee-aa.

The Holy Saint, has given me the Medicine of the Naam.

I believe you are translating the word Sadhu here wrongly. The Shabad starts with praising Vaheguru on how Vaheguru blesses a person with repeating his name. The central line in regards to the reference of Sadhu in this shabad is the following:

ਜਬ ਤੇ ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਪਾਏ ॥ਗੁਰ ਭੇਟਤ ਹਉ ਗਈ ਬਲਾਏ ॥

जब ते साधू संगति पाए ॥ गुर भेटत हउ गई बलाए ॥

Jab ṯe sāḏẖū sangaṯ pā▫e. Gur bẖetaṯ ha▫o ga▫ī balā▫e.

Since I found the company of the Holy, and met the Guru, the demon of pride has departed.

The company of the Sadhu is the Gurus sangat and along with the presence of the Guru my ego has burnt away. Taking the whole shabad the conclusion comes the Sadhu in this Shabad is the Guru. The shabad is presented below.

Mājẖ mėhlā 5.

Maajh, Fifth Mehl:

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵਉ ॥

प्रभ किरपा ते हरि हरि धिआवउ ॥

Parabẖ kirpā ṯe har har ḏẖi▫āva▫o.

By God's Grace, I meditate on the Lord, Har, Har.

ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਇਆ ਤੇ ਮੰਗਲੁ ਗਾਵਉ ॥

प्रभू दइआ ते मंगलु गावउ ॥

Parabẖū ḏa▫i▫ā ṯe mangal gāva▫o.

By God's Kindness, I sing the songs of joy.

ਊਠਤ ਬੈਠਤ ਸੋਵਤ ਜਾਗਤ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਈਐ ਸਗਲ ਅਵਰਦਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥

ऊठत बैठत सोवत जागत हरि धिआईऐ सगल अवरदाजीउ ॥१॥

Ūṯẖaṯ baiṯẖaṯ sovaṯ jāgaṯ har ḏẖi▫ā▫ī▫ai sagal avraḏā jī▫o. ||1||

While standing and sitting, while sleeping and while awake, meditate on the Lord, all your life. ||1||

ਨਾਮੁ ਅਉਖਧੁ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਸਾਧੂ ਦੀਆ ॥

नामु अउखधु मो कउ साधू दीआ ॥

Nām a▫ukẖaḏẖ mo ka▫o sāḏẖū ḏī▫ā.

The Holy Saint has given me the Medicine of the Naam.

ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਕਾਟੇ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਥੀਆ ॥

किलबिख काटे निरमलु थीआ ॥

Kilbikẖ kāte nirmal thī▫ā.

My sins have been cut out, and I have become pure.

ਅਨਦੁ ਭਇਆ ਨਿਕਸੀ ਸਭ ਪੀਰਾ ਸਗਲ ਬਿਨਾਸੇ ਦਰਦਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥

अनदु भइआ निकसी सभ पीरा सगल बिनासे दरदाजीउ ॥२॥

Anaḏ bẖa▫i▫ā niksī sabẖ pīrā sagal bināse ḏarḏā jī▫o. ||2||

I am filled with bliss, and all my pains have been taken away. All my suffering has been dispelled. ||2||

ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਅੰਗੁ ਕਰੇ ਮੇਰਾ ਪਿਆਰਾ ॥

जिस का अंगु करे मेरा पिआरा ॥

Jis kā ang kare merā pi▫ārā.

One who has my Beloved on his side,

ਸੋ ਮੁਕਤਾ ਸਾਗਰ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥

सो मुकता सागर संसारा ॥

So mukṯā sāgar sansārā.

is liberated from the world-ocean.

ਸਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਜਿਨਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਛਾਤਾ ਸੋ ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਡਰਦਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥

सति करे जिनि गुरू पछाता सो काहे कउ डरदा जीउ ॥३॥

Saṯ kare jin gurū pacẖẖāṯā so kāhe ka▫o darḏā jī▫o. ||3||

One who recognizes the Guru practices Truth; why should he be afraid? ||3||

ਜਬ ਤੇ ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਪਾਏ ॥

जब ते साधू संगति पाए ॥

Jab ṯe sāḏẖū sangaṯ pā▫e.

Since I found the company of the Holy,

ਗੁਰ ਭੇਟਤ ਹਉ ਗਈ ਬਲਾਏ ॥

गुर भेटत हउ गई बलाए ॥

Gur bẖetaṯ ha▫o ga▫ī balā▫e.

and met the Guru, the demon of pride has departed.

ਸਾਸਿ ਸਾਸਿ ਹਰਿ ਗਾਵੈ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਢਾਕਿ ਲੀਆ ਮੇਰਾ ਪੜਦਾ ਜੀਉ ॥੪॥੧੭॥੨੪॥

सासि सासि हरि गावै नानकु सतिगुर ढाकि लीआ मेरापड़दा जीउ ॥४॥१७॥२४॥

Sās sās har gāvai Nānak saṯgur dẖāk lī▫ā merā paṛ▫ḏā jī▫o. ||4||17||24||

With each and every breath, Nanak sings the Lord's Praises. The True Guru has covered my sins. ||4||17||24|| ang 101

Raag Gwaarayaree, Guru Arjun Dev

Sant parsaad, japai har naa-o.

By the Parsad of Nam of the Saints, one chants the Lord's Name. So if Sant is also called Guru, His Parsad, in that way is also called Gurparsad.

Blanketed remarks are being made without any support. In your translation you added the word Naam, but this word does not come in the Gurbani line. Adding the word Naam would strength your argument, but it would be misleading and outright wrong translation. I believe this shabad also must be understood by looking at the whole shabad.

ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥

गउड़ी महला ५ ॥

Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 5.

Gauree, Fifth Mehl:

ਮਨ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਗੁਨ ਗਾਈਐ ॥

मन राम नाम गुन गाईऐ ॥

Man rām nām gun gā▫ī▫ai.

O my mind, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord's Name.

ਨੀਤ ਨੀਤ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਸਾਸਿ ਸਾਸਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਈਐ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

नीत नीत हरि सेवीऐ सासि सासि हरि धिआईऐ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Nīṯ nīṯ har sevī▫ai sās sās har ḏẖi▫ā▫ī▫ai. ||1|| rahā▫o.

Serve the Lord continually and continuously; with each and every breath, meditate on the Lord. ||1||Pause||

ਸੰਤਸੰਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ॥

संतसंगि हरि मनि वसै ॥

Saṯsang har man vasai.

In the Society of the Saints, the Lord dwells in the mind,

ਦੁਖੁ ਦਰਦੁ ਅਨੇਰਾ ਭ੍ਰਮੁ ਨਸੈ ॥੧॥

दुखु दरदु अनेरा भ्रमु नसै ॥१॥

Ḏukẖ ḏaraḏ anerā bẖaram nasai. ||1||

and pain, suffering, darkness and doubt depart. ||1||

ਸੰਤ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਪੀਐ ॥

संत प्रसादि हरि जापीऐ ॥

Sanṯ parsāḏ har jāpī▫ai.

One who meditates on the Lord, by the Grace of the Saints,

ਸੋ ਜਨੁ ਦੂਖਿ ਨ ਵਿਆਪੀਐ ॥੨॥

सो जनु दूखि न विआपीऐ ॥२॥

So jan ḏūkẖ na vi▫āpī▫ai. ||2||

that humble being is not afflicted with pain. ||2||

ਜਾ ਕਉ ਗੁਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਦੇ ॥

जा कउ गुरु हरि मंत्रु दे ॥

Jā ka▫o gur har manṯar ḏe.

Those unto whom the Guru gives the Mantra of the Lord's Name,

ਸੋ ਉਬਰਿਆ ਮਾਇਆ ਅਗਨਿ ਤੇ ॥੩॥

सो उबरिआ माइआ अगनि ते ॥३॥

So ubri▫ā mā▫i▫ā agan ṯe. ||3||

are saved from the fire of Maya. ||3||

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਉ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਇਆ ਕਰਿ ॥

नानक कउ प्रभ मइआ करि ॥

Nānak ka▫o parabẖ ma▫i▫ā kar.

Be kind to Nanak, O God;

ਮੇਰੈ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਵਾਸੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਹਰਿ ॥੪॥੭॥੧੪੫॥

मेरै मनि तनि वासै नामु हरि ॥४॥७॥१४५॥

Merai man ṯan vāsai nām har. ||4||7||145||

let the Lord's Name dwell within my mind and body. ||4||7||145||

I insist on people reading and translating Gurbani as a Shabad instead of cutting Gurbani off at tuks or half tuks. Not to sound like a broken record, but many Sants break Gurbani tuks or only say one tuk out of context to support what they want to preach. This is very comman among missionary kathavachaks as well.

Sant Parsad does not equal Gurparsad. The third pauri clears this blanketed statement up by tell us the Mantra of Akal Purakh is given by the Guru and takes a person out of maya. The second pauri is saying a Sant can bless a person with repeating Vaheguru or reading Gurbani. This blessing can only come from the Sant because the Guru has given the Sant the ability too after the Sant followed the Gurus path. Sant parsad is nothing close to giving Naam as the shabad clears in the second and third pauri. Gurparsad is only given by the Guru.

The other question you ask, is why I say Guru Ravi Das.

As you may have come to see by now, from what has been written above, Guru is state of the highest consciusness, so if a mamulee soul can merge and become one with Wahiguru, because it has now attained that state, why not a blessed soul, by doing Nam bhakti, can attain that state of grace, refulgence and gyan of a Guru? Who are we to question it?

Im not questioning anything other than your reasoning on calling Bhagat Ravi Das as Guru.

The Bani confirms us , that by doing the sadhna of Nam Simran, we can become Sadhs, and then Wahiguru comes and pervades in our tongues, or hearts...whatever we say and do , is per the will of Wahiguru, that is why the Bani says: Har jee baseh sadh kee rasna, sadh ke hirdey.

And futher it says. Nanak, Sadh, Prabh bhed nah bhahee.

We poor limited moorakhs...

And moreover, Guru Ravi Das´Bani,like the others there, is added in the Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj, and has become a part and parcel of that Guru.

it is very unfair from our side, just because He is not from our community as a sikh or khalsa, so we call Him a bhagat, but from Guru Nanak to Gobind singh we call them Gurus, because we associate them as related to our culture and community.

Bhagat Prahlad is called Sant Prahlad by Bhagat Kabir ji. Is Bhagat Kabir ji discriminating because they were part of different community? Your reasoning is flawed.

That is why, I say , we poor moorakhs.

When Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj, Himself did not make any differences, and added His Bani in the Granth Sahib, who are we to say the contrary. All those highly spirtual biengs, whose Bani has been added in the Granth Sahib, are entitled as Guru Sahibans with full authority.

Guru Arjun Dev ji called Ravi Das as Bhagat Ravi Das. You are changing what Guru Arjun Dev ji said.

.

[harsharan000]

Eveything is viewed according to one´s level of consciousness. Nobody can convince anyone, for that one has to reap or mature. Like a professor of university talks about chemistry and formulas, and a a first grade student listens to it by chance, he will say, what are you saying...I know 2 +2 is 4.

It is only time that one needs to grow up. If one is not ready, even if Wahiguru comes and try to make one understand, one will simply not understand.

The example is as, when all the mahapurukhs come, how many of the people believe their teachings, or others slander them...when they do give the same teachings to all, but then why do some accept and others see the totally opposite side, and abuse them physically, that also when they only speak the Truth, in simple words?

Because they have a different levels of consciousness, conditioned by past sanskaras also.

Nothing more to discuss, at least from my side. No need for it, before it goes out of sense.

But anyhow I can only sincerely wish you the best of luck, may you succeed and achieve your goals according to your thinking.