Singh And Kaur As Surename

[Mehtab Singh]

Yes, so Rai in Sri Guru Har Rai Sahib jis name is a last name and so is for Sri Guru Gobind Rai before taking amrit.

Correct, however in either case it was not the family surname, and the family surname Sodhi has only been mentioned whether in Gurbani or in history only for the sake of information. There is no other reason or use of surnames in Gurmat.

[West London Singh]

When a jatt Sikh uses his or her surname I get to know so many things:

1) Which village they are from

2) Which district they are likely from and thus which dialect of Punjabi they speak. For example, if they are 'Sidhu' I know they speak a doaba dialect, and if they are a 'Grewal' or 'Brar' I know they speak a malwai dialect etc.

3) If they are a 'Bains' I know they are likely from Hoshiarpur and thus fairly intermixed with sainis and potato farming.

4) From their surnames, because of the districts the surnames are from, I get to know if they are likely one of the old established Sikhs in the UK from the 50's or one of the newer arrivals from the late 70's onwards.

There are just so, so many things and so much to know and learn. Absolutely none of it has anything whatsoever to do with 'caste'. The only people who make it a part of caste are those with ulterior 'jatt-bashing' motives. For example, the poster that started this thread. He relies on your ignorance of worldy things to articulate an intention of bashing 'caste' per se. But his actual username here is simply another name that bhatra sikhs in the UK like to call themselves. None of you here should make it so easy for people to run rings around you.

[Cisco_Singh]

Ridiculous you cannot read and understand simple English about naming of Sikhs.

It is not your fault as you are living in your own world of funny theories and logics which are so incredulous.

Was that an answer to the questions I posed ? I take that as meaning you can't answer the questions. Take your time go and read some books or do some internet research. Come back when you have an intellectual researched answer.

[Mehtab Singh]

Just a reminder to those still posting rude messages.....

even for small rude statement to others...you will go on indefinite under-moderation...sewadars will not give any reason to that member...any small mistake will put you "under moderation" for indefinite period of time.

We will continue to politely remind you for atleast 1 more week so you can mend your ways and post maturely and decently no matter how badly you disagree with someone. The more you tend to cross limits, the more chances that you will be put under moderation for an unknown period of time. Please do NOT blame the ADMINs and Mods once that happens and once we've requested, reminded and warned you enough number of times to REFRAIN from posting rudely.

Thanks and please carry on with the discussion in a harmonious manner.

[Cisco_Singh]

Edited duplicate post mods please delete.

[Big_Tera]

Brother, both the statements you made above are untrue.

I don't know where you've been 'noticing' bhatra surnames but most of the ones I encounter use surnames such as Rathore, Potiwal, Digwa, Bhakar etc.

I don't know where you've gone to 'notice' that jatt sikhs don't have Kaur and Singh as their middle names because I've never met one that doesn't in my whole life.

More often than not, villages in Punjab are named after the jatt clan that founded the village. Thus, jatt surnames denote which village they are from.

Now....the thing is....it's all very well starting threads which allude to being 100% against 'caste'. You can get away with it too when you rely on the general ignorance of people not knowing what your username actually means. Where the ruse falls apart is when knowledgable people such as myself appear and ask how someone that calls himself 'tera' (another name for Bhatra) in his username can start a thread supposedly against 'caste'.

As a side note, I do wish to ask a question you may be able to help me with. In my line of work I do regularly have dealings with bhatra sikh females. As a rule, a very large number of them sem to have Hindu first names such as Geeta, Seema and Laxmi etc. In passing I've mentioned it one or two of them and they told me they were from Delhi before they married a british bhatra male and it was common for them to share a sikh and hindu identity as bhatra sikhs believe that Sikhi as sikhi is supposed to be practiced is only for men....NOT women.

Can you shed some light ?

Both the Statements are true and I would never make any false statements up. I have never come across any Bhatra with a family name. It is always Singh or Kaur as the last name as instructed by our the 10th Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji. However some people have become so brainwashed into taking pride in their cast names that they have forgotton the true meaning of being Sikh.

Personally I feel no greater pride when someone calls out my surname as Singh and would never in a million years feel better if someone called out my caste name. My surname has always been one word (Singh) and that's the way it will stay. People who are saying family names help avoid inter-marriage. We all know what our family names are, without having them in our official names. I know what mine is. And so do hundreds of my relatives who only have Singh or Kaur in their surname. They have successfully married without inter-marrying. I feel so much pride having the honor to have the name Singh that I feel strange when I see other Sikhs who not only don't have Singh or Kaur in their names but only have their caste name.

[sikhiseeker]

WJKK WJKF

Dear Brother and sisters,

We should all fight for equality and one sikhi. The very fact that this topic has become about "jatt" and "bhatra" is a reflection of the misunderstanding of sikhi. There can never be jatt sikh, bhatra sikh or whatever else, there can only be a guru ka sikh.

My brother Cisco Singhs point is right that when amrit is adopted one becomes Singh and Kaur and I think the original point of amrit was that the set of amrit dhari khalsa parents would obviously initiate and administer the holy ambrit to their children and so on...this is how it was meant to be, hence why the suffix Singh and Kaur should be passed on however this has been broken and the issues which have been discussed on this forum present day are a direct consequence of this.

We should all take steps to our guru, forget our caste affiliations and the whole "my caste is better than yours" and unite!

Family names should be passed down through knowledge, only for the purpose of "a" cannot marry "a" and nothing else, we should be initiated with amrit and follow the hukum. Anyone who believes in the ten gurus and the Shiri Guru Granth Sahib ji but has not drank the holy amrit should only refer themselves to be a sikh, when they understand the sacrifice and cost of which our shaheed gave for the privilege to call themselves sikhs. If they believe in the superiority of their caste whether it be jatt or bhatra, they should understand they are not simply sikh. They are a product of their caste and void of any understanding of sikhi.

In Bara Maha da Paath, it states :

This is Nanak's prayer: "Please show Your Mercy, and bestow Your Name.

The gurus Khalsa is casteless, creed-less, genderless, ageless and colourless, yet we still argue for caste supremacy? Lolz

WJKK WJKF

[sikhiseeker]

Brother, both the statements you made above are untrue.

I don't know where you've been 'noticing' bhatra surnames but most of the ones I encounter use surnames such as Rathore, Potiwal, Digwa, Bhakar etc.

I don't know where you've gone to 'notice' that jatt sikhs don't have Kaur and Singh as their middle names because I've never met one that doesn't in my whole life.

More often than not, villages in Punjab are named after the jatt clan that founded the village. Thus, jatt surnames denote which village they are from.

Now....the thing is....it's all very well starting threads which allude to being 100% against 'caste'. You can get away with it too when you rely on the general ignorance of people not knowing what your username actually means. Where the ruse falls apart is when knowledgable people such as myself appear and ask how someone that calls himself 'tera' (another name for Bhatra) in his username can start a thread supposedly against 'caste'.

As a side note, I do wish to ask a question you may be able to help me with. In my line of work I do regularly have dealings with bhatra sikh females. As a rule, a very large number of them sem to have Hindu first names such as Geeta, Seema and Laxmi etc. In passing I've mentioned it one or two of them and they told me they were from Delhi before they married a british bhatra male and it was common for them to share a sikh and hindu identity as bhatra sikhs believe that Sikhi as sikhi is supposed to be practiced is only for men....NOT women.

Can you shed some light ?

WJKK WJKF,

Dear Brother,

Just because some sikhs have names in relation to Hindu gods and goddesses and other beings from Hindu scripture and history doesn't make them a Hindu. For example Shiri guru Ram Das, Shiri guru Arjan dev, Shiri guru har krishan. All these above stated names have relation to Hinduism however does it then make our gurus Hindu?

WJKK WJKF

[TurbanGuyz]

Some facts>..

firstly, these are not family names,,these are caste names...which means gotra...Take a time and go india and see what these people do with these gotra...and at the day of khalsa..they go to these gotra places and bow down

secondly, There was hardly any sikh guru who was using his caste name ...except oe of them..

thirdly..favoring caste names we are not sikh ,,we are still hindus..

fourthly, in ancient times there were groups and they formed a unique name for their own group.....and it was tradition of being married from one group to another group of same profession. In sikhism we should not marry in relatives that mean those who have blood relations. but sikhism does not prohibit marrying in the same pind unless there is any blood relation...

fifthly, we are indian so we know we follow western people somehow....we look at their surnames and family names and at last we think and make our castevnames as family names..In actual Singh,kaur,kumari,kumar,Dev, Rani,Rana,Raja...these some of the surnames in indian history..

I m wondering ,,if Tenth Guru would not have created khalsa and did not give a name "sikh to Guru nanak's Gaddii.. Are we gonna believe in caste Cancer?? was guru nanak's energy going to be wasted ?? Tell me the name of any guru except Guru Gobind ji who believed in castes?????

Wake up sikhs...don't hide your weaknesses ..except the truth ..do what gurus want from us...follow what has been said .About 60 years ago ,,,A biggest mistake was done by Mooorakh sikh leaders rejecting B.R. Ambedkar to be a part of sikhism,that resulted into heavy loss of sikhism....Have we learnt something from it?? No not at all...........because We lick the balls of brahimans.........no doubt..

Do you see the future of sikhism?? ofcourse it is ..but unfortunately not in indian communtiy..... I wish someone like HITLER should come and every indian should be caught from every part of the world and hanged till death...because at last its Hindu blood,,it behaves in the way as arayans tell people....how can we think that we can be sikh when we already know its hindu blood and that caste cancer has been involved in this blood.......

[sikhiseeker]

Some facts>..

firstly, these are not family names,,these are caste names...which means gotra...Take a time and go india and see what these people do with these gotra...and at the day of khalsa..they go to these gotra places and bow down

secondly, There was hardly any sikh guru who was using his caste name ...except oe of them..

thirdly..favoring caste names we are not sikh ,,we are still hindus..

fourthly, in ancient times there were groups and they formed a unique name for their own group.....and it was tradition of being married from one group to another group of same profession. In sikhism we should not marry in relatives that mean those who have blood relations. but sikhism does not prohibit marrying in the same pind unless there is any blood relation...

fifthly, we are indian so we know we follow western people somehow....we look at their surnames and family names and at last we think and make our castevnames as family names..In actual Singh,kaur,kumari,kumar,Dev, Rani,Rana,Raja...these some of the surnames in indian history..

I m wondering ,,if Tenth Guru would not have created khalsa and did not give a name "sikh to Guru nanak's Gaddii.. Are we gonna believe in caste Cancer?? was guru nanak's energy going to be wasted ?? Tell me the name of any guru except Guru Gobind ji who believed in castes?????

Wake up sikhs...don't hide your weaknesses ..except the truth ..do what gurus want from us...follow what has been said .About 60 years ago ,,,A biggest mistake was done by Mooorakh sikh leaders rejecting B.R. Ambedkar to be a part of sikhism,that resulted into heavy loss of sikhism....Have we learnt something from it?? No not at all...........because We lick the balls of brahimans.........no doubt..

Do you see the future of sikhism?? ofcourse it is ..but unfortunately not in indian communtiy..... I wish someone like HITLER should come and every indian should be caught from every part of the world and hanged till death...because at last its Hindu blood,,it behaves in the way as arayans tell people....how can we think that we can be sikh when we already know its hindu blood and that caste cancer has been involved in this blood.......

WJKK WJKF

Dear brother,

I understand, agree and support your view if the casteless sikhi. But I do not agree with your sentiments about someone like Hitler hanging Indians from around the world as it is Hindu blood. Brother, do not let anger take over your compassion, the khalsa is the protector of people and faiths not the destroyer as Hitler did. The Second World War was a terrible time in history not so long ago which should never, ever be repeated in any circumstance.

WJKK WJKF