Sansahar Sukhmana

[N30S1NGH]

There is not even one pre singh sabha translations which supports your translations its ridiculous..do check farid kot teeka, read pandit narian singh dasam granth teeka...the first time i realized how insecure neo tat khalsa were, when i read your sarbloh granth translations regarding gyan and bhagti ..its literally showed how desperate/insecure you were regarding your wrapped neo tat khalsa idealogy that you have adhere to...you made up as you went all along, ... I call spade a spade as i see there is systematic brainwashing of youths making them more self absorbed in their vanity false pride and i choose to uphold old traditional gurmat than reformist one... there is no down playing there is no beating around bushes...we hosted all types of right wing/left nut jobs on sikhawareness so we know all different types. You have nothing else to offer against same old crap against vedas by rejecting all of it, if you reject theological framework of vedas-vaishvanvas/vishiadvaita/advaita-vedant you are inadvertently rejecting gurbani aspects- advait/bhagti aspect in gurmat as its theological/etmology framework is one and same. Ultimate Bhram/divine expereince of sikh saints and hindu saints is one and same, bhramgyan avastha- turiya avastha/turiya atith avastha is one and same.

I have spent good time with hindu collegue freinds, build up dialogue with them (patch up interfaith relationship which neo khalistanis destroyed) regarding sikhi/indic snatan dharma at work and also read upanishads/vedas- essence message is very similiar, those hindus at work are at advance level meditation practitioners, none of them beleive in crap you demonize them.

[N30S1NGH]

Here is 12 page anyalsis on singh sabha- good read-

http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/11755-singh-sabha-movement/

[N30S1NGH]

Also to be fair, if one already have pre-conditioned bias/preconceived notions regarding vedas, upanishads- how can they be authority on subject deny or accept it?... how can one find impartial writing... I would rather trust sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale analysis of gurbani vichar who have spent 40 years studying the text thoroughly as they have understood whole picture of comparative study:

Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Jee Bhindranwale learnt the following scriptures

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj
Sri Dasam Granth Sahib
Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib
Panj Granthi
21 Vars
Bhagat Bani
Das Granthi,and memorised the 5 morning Nitnem Prayers
Sanskrit language
Ramayan
Mahabharat
Yoga Vishest
Vedic Granthsridkoth
Teeka of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee, authored by 52 Nirmala intellectuals
Bhai Gurdas Jee’s Vaars
Kabit Svayas
Bhai Nand Lal Jee’s writings
Sri Guru Panth Parkash
Sri Gur Bilaas – 6th & 10th Guru and many other accepted writings
Yoga Vedant
Panj Dasee
Moksh Panth
other Granths along with which he studied Sikh History from various sources
Bhai Gurdas Diyan Vaaran’
Bhai Gurdas Kabit Svaiya
Sri Nanak Prakash
Siri Guru Pratap
Suraj Granth Parbodh
Chander Natak
Bhagat Bani
Panj Granthi
Das Granthi
Mehima Parkash
Bhavrasamrit
Sanatan Bhagawant Gita
Balmiki Ramayan
Tulsi Ramayan
Mahabharat Rig
Yujar
Sham Ved
Atharvan Ved
Gurar Puran
Yog Vashisht
Markanday Puran
Hanuman Natak
Vairag Shatak
Sarkutavali Vichar
Sagar Bavikhat Puran
Bhai Nand Lal Zindageenama
Bhai Nand Lal Gazla
Bhai Nand Lal Rubaiyat
Bhai Nand Lal Jindagee Nama
The Quraan
The Anjeel Parasbhag and
Masnavi Bhakh
and composed a full tika of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaaj

[Bijla Singh]

There isnt even much pre-Singh Sabha literature let alone a full teeka. Just because during Singh Sabha much literature was written and published doesnt mean it went against Gurmat. The interpretation was presented by Kahan Singh Nabha in 1899 who learned it from sampardas most of which had fallen prey to Hindu influence by the time. Bhai Randhir Singh also advocates the same interpretation as well as Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha who beat Hindu scholars on various subjects in open debates numerous times.

the first time i realized how insecure neo tat khalsa were, when i read your sarbloh granth translations regarding gyan and bhagti

I didnt know I had written a teeka of any granth. If gyan and bhagti are your topics of interest then why are they missing from your posts and language?

its literally showed how desperate/insecure you were regarding your wrapped neo tat khalsa idealogy that you have adhere to

Without actually defining the terms tat khalsa idealogy you are making no sense. Typical samparda approach. No valid arguments, just personal attacks.

I call spade a spade as i see there is systematic brainwashing of youths and i choose to uphold old traditional gurmat than reformist one

Old is not always gold and samprdas are the ones who wish to reform Sikhi to make RSS easy to absorb Sikhism into Hinduism. Panj Pyare avtars of hindu gods, kachera from hanuman etc. is all the Hindu crap which Taksal and sampardas have been unable to defend against ignorant missionary fools. How well do you think it can defend such nonsense at an academic level?

we hosted all types of right wing/left nut jobs on sikhawareness so we know all different types

Yep, you know it all and all others are wrong. What a Sikhi you are preaching.

You have nothing else to offer against same old crap against vedas by rejecting all of it

Since Gurbani rejects the authority of Vedas, I have no problem doing the same. You are indirectly stating that Gurbani has nothing else to offer. By the way, you still havent provided any rational refutation. Of I forgot, you are completely ignorant of the Gurbani grammar just like your sampardas.

if you reject theological framework of vedas-vaishvanvas/vishiadvaita/advaita-vedant you are inadvertently rejecting gurbani aspects

False. You do not know anything about theology of Vedas let alone Gurmat. There are variations of Advaita Vedanta each one conflicting and going against one another. Vedanta itself has many contradictory versions and it is only one school of thought. There are other schools in Upnishads that are atheistic and Gurmat is contrary to such schools. Gurbani advocates monotheistic, Jainism is atheistic, Vedanta is monistic as well as pantheistic etc. Some believe in multiple permanent realities and some assume no creator of the world. You seriously need to study before making a fool of yourself by comparing lofty Gurmat theology to something wholly incongruent as Vedic thought.

advait/bhagti aspect in gurmat as its theological/etmology framework is one and same

False. Apart from same terminology, the definition as well as philosophical aspects are different. You are implying that Gurbani is not revealed and whatever exists in Gurbani had already existed in Vedas. This is what RSS says that Gurbani is summary of the Vedas. So finally, you show your true colors.

Ultimate Bhram/divine expereince of sikh saints and hindu saints is one and same, bhramgyan avastha- turiya avastha/turiya atith avastha is one and same

Absolutely not. How do you know they are same apart from the same terminology? Yogis consider their dasam duar to be something different than what Sikh mystic saints have described. In Vedanta there is no such thing as brahmgyan that exists in Gurmat. In Vedanta, Brahm is completely outside the creation and everything you do and know is part of maya and remains an illusion. Hence, not real. So how can you even get to know Him let alone experience Him? It is not possible. In Gurmat, the experience is real because the Reality exists in the world.

I have spent good time with hindu collegue friends

No wonder why you are completely lost and confused about Gurmat essence and always give it a Hindu coloring. Ever thought about learning Gurmat theology and philosophy from Sikhs? I guess that sounds farfetched to you.

I respect Sant Gurbachan Singh but it doesnt mean I have to agree with him every time. There are other myriads of scholars like Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha, Giani Ditt Singh, Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha, Bhai Vir Singh and Bhai Randhir Singh who have written on such subjects. I trust them also.

To understand Hinduism, Vedas and Upnishads I trust Dasgupta, Radhakrishnan and other authorities on the subjects. Limiting yourself to one person is foolish and trapping yourself in a box.

You still havent proved how I am or Singh Sabha is the same as RSS/Fascism/Nazi. Do you lack integrity to prove it?

[N30S1NGH]

There isnt even much pre-Singh Sabha literature let alone a full teeka. Just because during Singh Sabha much literature was written and published doesnt mean it went against Gurmat. The interpretation was presented by Kahan Singh Nabha in 1899 who learned it from sampardas most of which had fallen prey to Hindu influence by the time. Bhai Randhir Singh also advocates the same interpretation as well as Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha who beat Hindu scholars on various subjects in open debates numerous times.

Kahn singh nabha learned it from sampardas? Not really, if yes which samparda? Anyway does not matter much, people pick and choose all the time to hide behind their own insecurity...Besides his copy many entries from pandit tara singh narotam works gurbani kosh. He did good job and don't want to undermine his efforts, he did job whatever capacity maharaj gave him but hardly he can be consider gurmat theologian.

It's funny how you are mentioning most of scholars who undermines limit gurbani/gurmat into vikyaran rules only. That itself is blampshey as interpertation comes static and shallow....it does not or rather i say one who limits gurbani to vikyara does not let gurbani resoanate with gurbani own real essence nature- absolute existence truth, experience/perception it rather limit gurbani into some structured conceptual and abstract theology out there somewhere up there seperate from the creation (lot of christians sects have done same mistakes by limiting bible to watear down dumb down one liner interptations which one cannot relate to in expereince).

Luckysingh in the past have done excellent job showing how neo christians have watered down bible causing major revolt. It's same sort of idea.

Well if that seems complex to you, just do dhian of ikongkar for 1 month and come back on sikhsangat and let us know how much vikayaran helped you in your transcedence.

Whilst some vikayaran is required to understand gurbani, over fascisation with vikayaran causes hindrances, road blocks, dumb one down to one small grammar aspects-water down interpertations, causes road block in one's spiritual devolpment as one is not willing to accept anubhav arths in one experience because of pre conditioning.

You should listen to sakhi of pandit singh dhakka with sant isher singh ji rara sahib, how he was taken to anubhav arths of gurbani into transcedence of same gurbani tuk which he confined himself in via gurbani vikayaran rules.

I didnt know I had written a teeka of any granth. If gyan and bhagti are your topics of interest then why are they missing from your posts and language?

I do recall i posted sargun and nirgun bhakti couplet from sri sarbloh granth, again you limited (interesting couplet which indicated intertwin relationship with sargun and nirgun aspects of vahiguroo and bhagti and gyan) interpertation to vikyaran rule totally ignoring meta physical frame work of gurmat, its like limited/confing poetry to vikyaran framework without looking at other aspects

Old is not always gold and samprdas are the ones who wish to reform Sikhi to make RSS easy to absorb Sikhism into Hinduism. Panj Pyare avtars of hindu gods, kachera from hanuman etc. is all the Hindu crap which Taksal and sampardas have been unable to defend against ignorant missionary fools. How well do you think it can defend such nonsense at an academic level?

See who's insecure now, bigotry at the highest level..these devte's were sikhs learner of guru maharaj...kachera from hanuman- sure i can beleive its written in ramayana..what you going to do ? are you going to reform wear it differently? color it differently? even naam amrit sakhi of hanuman and ram chandar is stated in ramayana..its written..what you going to do? wait a minute let me guess you guys have already done it, dressed it up - turn some robotic act- hatha yoga into some mystical thing.

False. You do not know anything about theology of Vedas let alone Gurmat. There are variations of Advaita Vedanta each one conflicting and going against one another. Vedanta itself has many contradictory versions and it is only one school of thought. There are other schools in Upnishads that are atheistic and Gurmat is contrary to such schools. Gurbani advocates monotheistic, Jainism is atheistic, Vedanta is monistic as well as pantheistic etc. Some believe in multiple permanent realities and some assume no creator of the world. You seriously need to study before making a fool of yourself by comparing lofty Gurmat theology to something wholly incongruent as Vedic thought.

The way you are looking at advaita vedanta..sure you will find it contradictory as its you are looking at static structure- applies to all, its supposed to look at one spiritual development stages. If you find that contradictory, you will similiar issues with gurbani? for example one of various - asa di // couplet whole world is god and shalok nauvan message? world is false..how do you reconcile?

how upanishad is atheistic? Read Mandukya Upanishad and other upanishads...stop talking through your hat...you don't know jack all about puranas, vedas..you just pick and choose whatever suits your hate filled neo tat khalsa propaganda who wants turn sikhi into jevoh witness faith.

False. Apart from same terminology, the definition as well as philosophical aspects are different. You are implying that Gurbani is not revealed and whatever exists in Gurbani had already existed in Vedas. This is what RSS says that Gurbani is summary of the Vedas. So finally, you show your true color

Gurbani is revealed but its not revealed the way jevoh witness claim to be. Gurbani is always been there, but its fully pargat in kalyug- yug dharma, all the pre-existed fragmented aspects of gurmat were bought together in kalyuga-yug dharma- shabad surat, bhagti, gyan, advait, prem blends it beautifully in Naam. Aad sach jugad sach hai bhi sach nanak hosi bhi sach.

Based on kalyug, satguru nanak bought most suited method for realising that truth.

Read this more information: http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/9158-the-role-of-avatar-in-traditional-sikh-metaphsyics/

Absolutely not. How do you know they are same apart from the same terminology? Yogis consider their dasam duar to be something different than what Sikh mystic saints have described. In Vedanta there is no such thing as brahmgyan that exists in Gurmat. In Vedanta, Brahm is completely outside the creation and everything you do and know is part of maya and remains an illusion. Hence, not real. So how can you even get to know Him let alone experience Him? It is not possible. In Gurmat, the experience is real because the Reality exists in the world.

It's same thing, read yogi swami rama books- yes he talks about naam dhuni as well of their mantras transcending and much more, neo tat khalsa are hilarious, they think doing some hatha yoga breathing, they got something unique which they fall so proud of ..i m proud of gurbani and sikhi into but NOT into false prides...neo tat khalsa people are so self absorbed, in their own vanity one day just like every other neo nazi groups will pass away in their own flith/vanity....also look into guru gorakh natha shabad surat yog as well..i m not going to spoon feed.

In vedanta, bhram is absolute existence, how da hell is its outside of creation? Again stop talking through your nose.

Again you are looking at vedanta as abstract static theology rather spiritual development progress thats why you running into issues..no worries you will ran similiar issues what many messages you will come across in gurbani if you don't fix your rigid static mindset.

for exmaple - asa di // of whole world is god and shalok nauvan message? world is false..how do you reconcile?

No wonder why you are completely lost and confused about Gurmat essence and always give it a Hindu coloring. Ever thought about learning Gurmat theology and philosophy from Sikhs? I guess that sounds farfetched to you.

Hindu coloring? Nah rather - celebrating diversity, common ground, interfaith patching which neo tat khalistanis hate and feel threatened..i have learnt sikhi from samparda, and also one of gursikhs who have spent many years both singh sabha and with nirmale..

See how intolerant/insecure neo nazi tat khalsa mindset is? Just because i mentioned i spent discussing things with hindu freinds at work, this intolerant bigotry mindset thinks its hindu coloring and up in arms..what you going to do ? This isn't some banana republic khalistan of yours...!!..Stop patronizing , go stick your attitude where sun does not shine..!!

There are other myriads of scholars like Pandit Kartar Singh Dakha, Giani Ditt Singh, Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha, Bhai Vir Singh and Bhai Randhir Singh who have written on such subjects. I trust them also.

Pandit kartar singh dhakka has no school of thought, it was stand alone, just because he agreed with japji sahib interpertation, right wing groups want to use him as token to push their dry static boring empty shallow right wing theology..!!

Seriously man, i should go back to do some bhagti and you should go back get a proper education and detoxify yourself..i am wasting my time and your are wasting your time....i m not as learned as you but i do tell ya fella you got no chance..you arguments won't last a minute infront of real scholars/gyani in the panth such as gyani pinderpal singh, gyani sher singh, sant hari singh randhawale, bhai gurdev singh ji, gyani kulvant singh..!!

[DSGj]

ਸੁਖਮਨਾ-

ਦਸਮਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੀ ਖਾਸ ਬੀੜ ਵਿੱਚ ਕਿਸੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਦੀ ਰਚੀ ਹੋਈ ਇੱਕ ਬਾਣੀ, ਜੋ ੪੩ ਪੌੜੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਹੈ. ਇਸ ਦਾ ਕੁਝ ਪਾਠ ਇਹ ਹੈ-

ਸੰਸਾਹਰ ਸੁਖਮਨਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੀ ੧੦

ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮੇ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਕੋ ਪਰਨੰ।

ਫੁਨਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਰੀਤਿ ਰਸ ਬਰਨੰ।

ਦੀਨਦ੍ਯਾਲੁ ਪੁਰਖ ਅਤਿ ਸ੍ਵਾਮੀ।

ਭਗਤਵਛਲ ਹਰਿ ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ।

ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਰਹੈ ਨ ਦੇਖੈ ਕੋਈ।

ਜਲ ਥਲ ਰਮੈ ਸਰਵ ਮੈ ਸੋਈ।

ਬਹੁ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਅੰਤ ਨਹਿ ਪਾਵੈ।

ਪੜਿ ਪੜਿ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਰਾਹ ਬਤਾਵੈ।। ੧।।

ਵਾਹਗੁਰੂ ਜਪਤੇ ਸਭਕੋਈ।

ਯਾਕਾ ਅਰਥ ਸਮਝੈ ਜਨ ਸੋਈ।

ਵਾਵਾ ਵਾਹੀ ਅਪਰ ਅਪਾਰ।

ਹਾਹਾ ਹਿਰਦੇ. ਹਰਿ ਵੀਚਾਰ।

ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕੀਨਾ।

ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਮਨਿ ਚੀਨਾ।

ਇਨ ਅਛਰਨ ਕਾ ਸਮਝਨਹਾਰ।

ਰਾਖੈ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰ।। ੧੬।।

ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਚਿਤ ਲਾਯਕੈ ਇਕਮਨ ਹ੍ਵੈਕਰ ਜਾਪ।

ਕਰਿ ਇਸਨਾਨ ਸੁਖਮਨਾ ਪੜੋ ਨਿਹਚੈ ਮਨ ਕੋ ਥਾਪ।। ੩੮।।

ਸੁਨਹੁ ਸੰਤ ਤੁਮ ਸਾਚੀ ਬਾਣੀ।

ਗੁਰੁ ਅਪਨੇ ਕਉ ਹਰਿਜਨ ਜਾਣੀ।

ਜਾਂ ਹਰਿ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਹਾਈ।

ਧਰਮ ਬਿਲਾਸ ਕਰਮਗਤਿ ਪਾਈ।

ਪਾਖੰਡ ਛਾਡ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ਮਨ ਧਰੋ।

ਆਨ ਛਾਡ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਮਨ ਕਰੋ।

ਸੁਚ ਕਿਰਿਆ ਅਰ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਜੋ।

ਝੂਠਾ ਪੈਰੀਪਉਣਾ ਤਜੋ।। ੪੩।।

[Bijla Singh]

It's funny how you are mentioning most of scholars who undermines limit gurbani/gurmat into vikyaran rules only. That itself is blampshey as interpertation comes static and shallow....it does not or rather i say one who limits gurbani to vikyara does not let gurbani resoanate with gurbani own real essence nature- absolute existence truth, experience/perception it rather limit gurbani into some structured conceptual and abstract theology out there somewhere up there seperate from the creation (lot of christians sects have done same mistakes by limiting bible to watear down dumb down one liner interptations which one cannot relate to in expereince).

You need to learn to write better and please check your grammar from next time on. Since you don’t know the basics of grammar what evidence do you have to prove that grammar limits Gurbani? How foolish to say that Gurbani has unlimited contradictory meanings and it is not structured at all like it is manmade and not divinely revealed. If you are so keen on stressing unlimited meanings then what problem do you have with the ones provided by the other side? Why must everyone agree with what you say or your sampardas? Fascism at best.

Well if that seems complex to you, just do dhian of ikongkar for 1 month and come back on sikhsangat and let us know how much vikayaran helped you in your transcedence.

Experience and grammar are two different things. Grammar pertains to how Gurbani is written and what meanings it conveys. Experience is limitless. Are you assuming the authority of Panj Pyare to tell others what to do naam japp of?

Whilst some vikayaran is required to understand gurbani, over fascisation with vikayaran causes hindrances, road blocks, dumb one down to one small grammar aspects, causes road block in one's spiritual devolpment as one is not willing to accept anubhav arths in one expereince because of pre conditioning

So how do you determine which rules to accept and which ones to reject? Grammar keeps Gurbani from contradictions, distortions and misinterpretation. Otherwise one is free to offer any meanings. Again, experience is different and anubhav meanings will never contradict grammar. As one’s anubhav increases he will reveal higher grammar rules.

I do recall i posted sargun and nirgun bhakti couplet from sri sarbloh granth, again you limited (interesting couplet which indicated intertwin relationship with sargun and nirgun aspects of vahiguroo and bhagti and gyan) interpertation to vikyaran rule totally ignoring meta physical frame work of gurmat, its like limited/confing poetry to vikyaran framework without looking at other aspects

Your as well as sampardaic understanding of Gurmat Reality is heavily influenced by Vedanta of Shankra which is contrary to Gurmat. Not just Bhai Randhir Singh but Bhai Vir Singh has also rejected it in his books. I do not mind samparda interpretation. They have their view but I do not categorically label them and throw insults like you nor do I call their contribution and seva as “crap”.

It's same thing, read yogi swami rama books, neo tat khalsa are hilarious, they think doing some hatha yoga breathing, they got something unique which they fall so proud of ..i m proud of gurbani and sikhi into but NOT into false prides...neo tat khalsa people are so self absorbed, in their own vanity one day just like every other neo nazi groups will pass away in their own flith/vanity....also look into guru gorakh natha shabad surat yog as well..i m not going to spoon feed.

So swami rama defines what Gurmat is? Absolutely ridiculous. Ok, so all other Sikhs are bad/nazis blah blah blah...How does that make them wrong? You live in a samparda box and nothing else exists. This is intolerant behavior and attitude.

In vedanta, bhram is absolute existence, how da hell is its outside of creation? Again stop talking through your nose.

Which Vedanta are you referring to? You are so ignorant about Vedanta and yet fail to realize it. You seem delusional. In Shankra’s Vedanta, Brahm is absolute which refers to being non-immanent. Also, world is maya but Brahm is not. Therefore, both are separate. It is a paradox and Shankra was refuted by Hindu scholars yet ignorant Sikhs are still attached to it.

Again you are looking at vedanta as abstract static theology rather spiritual development progress thats why you running into issues..no worries you will ran similiar issues what many messages you will come across in gurbani if you don't fix your rigid static mindset.

Vedanta and spiritual progress? You must be kidding. World is maya so anything you do in it is also part of maya. Any progress is also maya. Where does that leave the Reality? Nowhere. True experience comes from Naam Simran and I am ecstatic with it.

for exmaple - asa di // of whole world is god and shalok nauvan message? world is false..how do you reconcile?

It is very simple. But you wouldn’t understand the context.

Hindu coloring? Nah rather - celebrating diversity, common ground, interfaith patching which neo tat khalistanis hate and feel threatened..i have learnt sikhi from samparda, and also one of gursikhs who have spent many years both singh sabha and with nirmale..

So how wise is it to insult the very people you have learned from and call their work “crap”? Interfaith means sharing beliefs not mixing beliefs. You seem to be stuck in a time period when idols were installed in Darbar Sahib and everyone thought Sikhi was part of Hinduism. Diversity and contradictions are definite meanings. Learn the difference first.

See how intolerant/insecure neo nazi tat khalsa mindset is? Just because i mentioned i spent discussing things with hindu freinds at work, this intolerant bigotry mindset thinks its hindu coloring and up in arms..what you going to do ? This isn't some banana republic khalistan of yours...!!..Stop patronizing , go stick your attitude where sun does not shine..!!

It’s fine to have interfaith dialogue and even learn Hindu faith from Hindus but they are no authority on Sikhi. So it’s fine for you to learn Sikhi from Hindus but not for me to learn Sikhi from Sikhs. Why do you have double standard and bias and hatred towards other Sikhs? Your cheap insults have no effect on me. This isn’t personal. How is it about Khalistan in any way? I know it isn’t republic in your mind. It is monarchy where only your viewpoint must be heard and all others labelled as nazis and killed. You must be spiritually sick or having a mental breakdown.

Pandit kartar singh dhakka has no school of thought, it was stand alone

One doesn’t need to be part of a hindu color/RSS mindset school of thought to be acceptable. Don’t pick one scholar out of a list and think you have properly addressed the point. He was part of a group and He agreed with the interpretations of other scholars.

Seriously man, i should go back to do some bhagti and you should go back get a proper education and detoxify yourself..your are wasting your time..

With your grammatical errors and sentence lacking proper structure and punctuations, I am not the one lacking education. It is you who lacks basic understanding of grammar. I simply posted a one line post and you turned it into a futile bickering. Why did you waste the time? You could’ve easily posted your viewpoint and respectfully disagreed. I would’ve had no qualms over it.

you arguments won't last a minute infront of real scholars/gyani in the panth such as gyani pinderpal singh, gyani sher singh, sant hari singh randhawale, bhai gurdev singh ji, gyani kulvant singh..!!

This is funny. I never claim to be a scholar or as learned as such gursikhs. I learn from them as much as I can and respect them equally even when I disagree with them rather than calling their work “crap”. They are all my elder brothers and I consider them a part of Khalsa family where we may have differences but at the end we are all children of the same father. You, however, seem to be indifferent.

Again, still waiting on any proofs on how I or Singh Sabhas are nazis/rss etc.

[Bijla Singh]

DSGj, from the poetry it doesn't sound like rachna of Guru Sahib because it is not as rich and powerful compared to other compositions. One pauri seems to be a copy and derivation of a pauri from Vaars. I think Sodhak committee must have made a sound decision after much deliberation.

[N30S1NGH]

You need to learn to write better and please check your grammar from next time on. Since you don’t know the basics of grammar what evidence do you have to prove that grammar limits Gurbani? How foolish to say that Gurbani has unlimited contradictory meanings and it is not structured at all like it is manmade and not divinely revealed. If you are so keen on stressing unlimited meanings then what problem do you have with the ones provided by the other side? Why must everyone agree with what you say or your sampardas? Fascism at best.

Grammar has limitations, does grammar defines true bhramgyan expereince internal expereince? does nirgun paratma have grammar? Is true essence poetry confined to grammar rules?

The reason there is an issue with other side because other side wants to confine gurbani to grammar frame work only. Why one experience with gurbani has to be basic pointer- grammar verified? what a silly nonsensical game.

As i said earlier, over fascisation with grammar will create spiritual hindrance as it creates pre conceived conditioning mind..whether you like to admit your own deeper insecurities or not..thats different story.

Experience and grammar are two different things. Grammar pertains to how Gurbani is written and what meanings it conveys. Experience is limitless. Are you assuming the authority of Panj Pyare to tell others what to do naam japp of?

Well if expereince of gurbani and grammar are two different things? how come you basing and most importantly confining everything to grammar?

No i am not assuming any authority, i thought we are encouraged to advise fellow sikh brother to jap naam on gurbani - ap japo avrah naam japaovo.

Again, experience is different and anubhav meanings will never contradict grammar. As one’s anubhav increases he will reveal higher grammar rules.

See this is exactly what i m talking about, one has to already created preconditioning in their mind, how can one transecedent if they have rigid preconditioning structure head, so are we supposed to have paper and pen in jot down high grammar rules? really? Get real man...!!.

Grammar is just basic frame work, gurbani interpretations is pointer pointing seeker meditation on gurbani towards high transcendence -inner layer of gurbani.

Your as well as sampardaic understanding of Gurmat Reality is heavily influenced by Vedanta of Shankra which is contrary to Gurmat. Not just Bhai Randhir Singh but Bhai Vir Singh has also rejected it in his books. I do not mind samparda interpretation. They have their view but I do not categorically label them and throw insults like you nor do I call their contribution and seva as “crap”.

There is no vedanta or shankra, i haven't idiolize any of them, there is absolute reality, if same gurmat absolute reality is shared by sufism, vedant, shankra so be it..i am happy for them..i don't get jealous like jevoh witness nor i wrap my head around power trip and vanity trip...!!

I m never mentioned contributions by bhai randhir singh ji (shabad surat aspect) and bhai vir singh contribution as crap..please-re-read my post..i call jevoh witness sikhi idealogy shared by neo tat khalsa utterly disguisting, same level as rss without power.

So swami rama defines what Gurmat is? Absolutely ridiculous. Ok, so all other Sikhs are bad/nazis blah blah blah...How does that make them wrong? You live in a samparda box and nothing else exists. This is intolerant behavior and attitude.

Re-read my post, i wasn't reffering to swami rama defining gurmat...i was referring swami rama books which has all dasam dwar, anhad shabad, all that reference points and other similiar concepts as gurmat which is same techniques from upanishads - shabad surat yog...the one neo tat khalsa always demonizes is hatha yoga posture which they themselves are guilty of....i by maharaj kirpa live open in the sky as eagle with 360 views with no boundaries, while you confine yourself in a well , you already made tunnel as your reality. how pity...!!

Which Vedanta are you referring to? You are so ignorant about Vedanta and yet fail to realize it. You seem delusional. In Shankra’s Vedanta, Brahm is absolute which refers to being non-immanent. Also, world is maya but Brahm is not. Therefore, both are separate. It is a paradox and Shankra was refuted by Hindu scholars yet ignorant Sikhs are still attached to it.

Read 21st astpadi of sukhmani sahib, lines from jaap sahib same thing, you fail to see as you are too insecure to face it..!!. being non-imament needs to be looked from aspect of nirgun-sun smadhi- maha samadhi nirgun paratma ..!!!..world is maya- what does shalok nauvan says? again supposed to look as stage/development state...off course gurbani full of statements of transcendence which may across contradictory if its not contexualized properly.....it refuses to give seeker structure/static as its transcendental gurbani.......but you want to confine gurbani into some man made neo tat khalsa fancy word theology article? what a utter shame..!!!

Vedanta and spiritual progress? You must be kidding. World is maya so anything you do in it is also part of maya. Any progress is also maya. Where does that leave the Reality? Nowhere. True experience comes from Naam Simran and I am ecstatic with it.

Ant of vedas- vedant- gyan essence, spiritual awakening- ...you are so confused yourself...anyone with iota of spiritual progress/awakening knows where its coming from you are so blinded with tat neo singh sabha sikhi cannot see it...!!

I would highly advise expereince gurbani see it for yourself , other than no one convince you..it wiil be hard to let go your pre-conditioning and pre conceived notions, and dry conceptual structure road blocks you have created for yourself.

[DSGj]

DSGj, from the poetry it doesn't sound like rachna of Guru Sahib because it is not as rich and powerful compared to other compositions. One pauri seems to be a copy and derivation of a pauri from Vaars. I think Sodhak committee must have made a sound decision after much deliberation.

Bijla Singh Jee,

sadly some people are not willing to see the truth.

Let us look at where ਸੰਸਾਹਰ ਸੁਖਮਨਾ comes from:

ਦਸਮਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੀ ਬੀੜ ਇੱਕ ਭਾਈ ਸੁੱਖਾ ਸਿੰਘ (ਪਟਨੇ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਗ੍ਰੰਥੀ) ਨੇ ਭੀ ਲਿਖੀ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਛੱਕੇ ਭਗੌਤੀਸਤੋਤ੍ਰ ਆਦਿਕ ਸ਼ਾਮਿਲ ਕਰ ਦਿੱਤੇ ਹਨ. ਅਞਾਣ ਅਤੇ ਮਨਮੌਜੀ ਲਿਖਾਰੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਨਾਲ ਕਈ ਹੋਰ ਬੀੜਾਂ ਭੀ ਬਣ ਗਈਆਂ ਹਨ ਅਤੇ ਅਰਥਾਂ ਤੋਂ ਅਨਰਥ ਹੋਗਏ ਹਨ, ਪਰ ਕਿਸੇ ਗੁਰੁਮਤ ਪ੍ਰੇਮੀ ਨੇ ਇਸ ਦੇ ਸੁਧਾਰ ਦਾ ਉਪਾਉ ਨਹੀਂ ਕੀਤਾ. ਭਾਵੇਂ ਬੀੜਾਂ ਤਾਂ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਹਨ, ਪਰ ਮੁੱਖ ਦੋ ਹੀ ਹਨ ਇੱਕ ਭਾਈ ਮਨੀਸਿੰਘ ਦੀ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਦੂਜਾ ਨਾਉਂ ਭਾਈ ਦੀਪਸਿੰਘ ਵਾਲੀ ਭੀ ਹੈ, ਦੂਜੀ ਭਾਈ ਸੁੱਖਾਸਿੰਘ ਦੀ, ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਲੋਕ ਖ਼ਾਸ ਬੀੜ ਕਰਕੇ ਭੀ ਸਦਦੇ ਹਨ.

ਸੁਖਮਨਾ-

ਦਸਮਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੀ ਖਾਸ ਬੀੜ ਵਿੱਚ ਕਿਸੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਦੀ ਰਚੀ ਹੋਈ ਇੱਕ ਬਾਣੀ, ਜੋ ੪੩ ਪੌੜੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਹੈ.

ਵਾਰ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਜੀ ਕੀ -

ਪੌੜੀ ਛੰਦ ਵਿੱਚ ਭਗਵਤੀ (ਦੁਰਗਾ) ਦੀ ਯੁੱਧਕਥਾ. ਇਸ ਨਾਮ ਦੀਆਂ ਦੋ ਵਾਰਾਂ ਹਨ. ਇੱਕ ਦਸਮਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੇ ਦੋਹਾਂ ਚੰਡੀ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਪਿੱਛੋਂ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਦੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਰਚਨਾ ਹੈ. ਇਸ ਦੀਆਂ ੫੫ ਪੌੜੀਆਂ ਹਨ. ਇਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਮਾਰਕੰਡੇਯ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਦੀ "ਦੁਰਗਾ ਸਪਤਸ਼ਤੀ" ਦਾ ਖੁਲਾਸਾ ਹੈ. ਦੂਜੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੀ ਖ਼ਾਸ ਬੀੜ, ਜਿਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਸੁਖਮਨਾ, ਮਾਲਕੌਸ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ ਆਦਿਕ ਵਾਧੂ ਬਾਣੀਆਂ ਹਨ, ਉਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਦੇਖੀ ਜਾਂਦੀ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਪਾਠ ਇਹ ਹੈ-

ੴ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤੇ

ਵਾਰ ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਪਾਤਸ਼ਾਹੀ ੧੦

ਦੋਹਰਾ

ਭਗਤ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਤਿਸਹ ਕੀ ਜੋ ਜਨ ਧੀਰ ਧਰੈ ॥ ਅੰਗ ਸੰਗ ਹਉਂ ਲਾਗਹੂੰ ਪਾਛੈ ਪਗ ਨ ਕਰੈ ॥

ਸਵੈਯਾ

ਭਗਤ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਸਾਜਕੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਜਗ ਆਰੰਭ ਰਚਾਇ ਹੈ ॥ ਰਨਭੂਮਿ ਭਭੂਤ ਚੜ੍ਹਾਇਕੈ ਡਫ ਡਉਰੂ ਡੰਕ ਬਜਾਇਹੈ ॥

ਕਲ ਨਾਰਦ ਹੜ ਹੜ ਹੱਸਿਆ ਰਨ ਸਾਬਤ ਜੁੱਝ ਮਚਾਇਹੈ ॥ ਦੁਲਦੁਲ ਖਿੰਗ ਬਿਗੱਸਿਆ ਰਨ ਰੁਹਰ ਕਹਰ ਬਰਖਾਇ ਹੈ ॥

ਘਰ ਸੁੱਤਾ ਸਿੰਘ ਜਗਾਇਆ ਖੜ ਧਰਤੀ ਹਾਕ ਚਲਾਇਹੈ ॥ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਪਕੜ ਭੱਕਲਿਆ ਕਰ ਜੱਗ ਘਮੰਡ ਮਚਾਇ ਹੈ ॥

ਭਕਲ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਦੁਰਜਨਾ ਫਟ ਠੁੰਠੁਰ ਮਿੰਝ ਕਢਾਇਹੈ ॥ ਹਥ ਖੱਪਰ ਫਟਕਣ ਡਮਰਚੂ ਕਢ ਕੰਗਲ ਖੋਲਿ ਬਲਾਇਹੈ ॥

ਉਥ ਫੁੱਥਲ ਘੁੰਮਨ ਘੋਰ ਕਰ ਭਕਰੂਲਹ ਧੁਧ ਮਚਾਇਹੈ ॥ ਲੁੱਥ ਪਲੁਥ ਧਰ ਨਾਲ ਧੜ ਪਿੰਜਰ ਕੁੰਤਕ ਖਇਹੈ॥

ਲਪਟ ਝਪਟ ਲੇ ਤੇਗਨਾ ਲਰ ਸੂਰਾ ਘਨਾ ਘਤਾਇਹੈ॥ ਖਚਕ ਖਪਨ ਜਹਿ" ਜਮਧੜੇ ਰਣ ਲੁੱਥ ਪਲੁੱਥ ਲੁਠਾਇਹੈ॥

ਰਕਤ ਪਲੇਟੀ ਜੋਗਣੀ ਹੁਣ ਦੁਰਜਨ ਖੇਤ ਖਪਾਇ ਹੈ ॥ ਰੁੰਡ ਮੁੰਡ ਘਮਸਾਣ ਖੇਤ ਰਣ ਜੰਬੁਕ ਗਿਰਝ ਅਘਾਇਹੈ॥

ਧਮ ਧਮਾਕੋ ਜਬਜਰਜੰਗ ਗੜ੍ਹ ਕੋਟਨ ਕੋਟਕ ਢਾਹਿਹੈ॥ ਕੜ ਧੜਦੇ ਪੜਸਨ ਭੇੜ ਕਰ ਸੈਲਹਿ ਸੈਲ ਭਿੜਾਇਹੈ॥

ਗਗਨ ਕੜੱਕੀ ਬੀਜੁਲੀ ਪਰਲਉ ਪਰਲੋਕ ਖਪਾਇਹੈ॥ ਉਤਲਕ ਧੁਮੰਤਲ ਢਾਇਅਨੁ ਬਹੁ ਮੁੰਡਕ ਮੁੰਡ ਭਿੜਾਇਹੈ॥

ਬਰਹਰ ਕੰਪੈ ਧਰਮਰਾਇ ਰਣ ਸੂਰਾ ਘਾਨ ਘਤਾਇਹੈ॥ ਸੱਜੇ ਬੋਹਿਥ ਧੱਕਿਆ ਕਰ ਖੱਬੇ ਖੜਗ ਮਚਾਇਹੈ॥

ਨਿਬੇੜਾ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਤੁਰਕ ਦਾ ਰਣ ਮੱਧੇ ਖੜਗ ਚੁਕਾਇਹੈ॥ ਜੱਗ ਅਰੰਭ ਤਿਂਹ ਜੁੱਗ ਹੁਣ ਮਾਸ ਮਾਨੁਖ ਵਿੱਚ ਘਤਾਇਹੈ॥

ਰਕਤ ਖਪਰ ਭਰ ਜੋਗਣੀ ਰਣ ਮਸਤ ਮੰਗਲ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇਹੈ॥ ਕੇਸ ਬਿਨਾ ਸਿਰ ਕੱਟੀਐ ਚਿੰਘਾਵੈ ਕਵਣ ਛੋਡਾਇਹੈ॥

ਹੁਕਮ ਮੰਨੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਬਖਸਲੇ ਨਿਗੁਰਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਇਹੋ ਸਜਾਇਹੈ॥ ਵਡੇ ਜੰਗ ਗੋਬਿੰਦਸਿੰਘ ਦਲ ਕੋਕਟ ਕੋਟ ਖਪਾਇਹੈ॥#॥

ਦੋਹਰਾ॥

ਆਸਾ ਨਾ ਕਰੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਨਾ ਨਾ ਪਰਸੋ ਪਗ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਤ੍ਯਾਗ ਦੂਜੇ ਲਗੇ ਕੁੰਭਿ ਨਰਕ ਮਹਿ ਪਾਇ ॥

ਮਾਲਕੌਸ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ -

ਦਸਮਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਦੀ ਇੱਕ ਨਿਰਾਲੀ ਬੀੜ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਵਿੱਚ ਕਈ ਬਾਣੀਆਂ ਵਾਧੂ ਹਨ, ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਵਿੱਚ ਕਿਸੇ ਸਿੱਖ ਦੀ ਲਿਖੀ ਹੋਈ ਗ੍ਯਾਰਾਂ ਪੌੜੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਇੱਕ ਇਸ ਸਿਰਲੇਖ ਦੀ ਰਚਨਾ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਆਰੰਭ ਇਉਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ-

ਵਾਰ ਮਾਲਕੌਸ ਕੀ ਪਾਤਸਾਹੀ ੧੦

ਪਉੜੀ

ਮਾਲਕੌਸ ਧੁਨਿ ਬਿਮਲ ਬਨਾਈ। ਅਲਖ ਨਾਮ ਸਚਾ ਖੁਦਾਈ।

ਜਬ ਦੋਨੋ ਹੱਦਾਂ ਏਕ ਰਖਾਈ। ਨਾਨਕ ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਸੱਚੇ ਕੋ ਬਣ ਆਈ।

ਨਾਨਕ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਭਾਵਹਿਂਗੇ। ਹਰਿ ਜੀ ਹਰਿਮੰਦਿਰ ਆਵਹਿਂਗੇ ॥

(I don't want to go off-topic, but since we are talking about ਮਾਲਕੌਸ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ, we might as well check the following as well)...

#੨. ਰਾਵਲਪਿੰਡੀ ਭਾਈ ਬੂਟਾ ਸਿੰਘ ਹਕੀਮ ਦੀ ਧਰਮਸਾਲਾ ਇੱਕ ਪੁਰਾਣੀ ਲਿਖਤ ਦਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥਸਾਹਿਬ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਵਿੱਚ ੩੫ ਪੌੜੀਆਂ ਦੀ ਮਾਲਕੌਸ ਦੀ ਵਾਰ ਹੈ, ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਆਰੰਭ ਇਉਂ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ-

ਮਾਲਕੌਸ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ ਮਹਲਾ ੧. (ਪੰਨਾ ੧੩੨੧)

ਸਚਾ ਅਲਖ ਅਪਾਰ ਸਰੰਦਾ ਜਾਣੀਐ। ਬੱਲੇ ਸੱਚਿਆ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

ਦੁਇ ਪੁੜ ਜੋੜ ਵਿਛੋੜਿ ਧਰੇ ਆਡਾਣੀਐ। ਸੂਰਜ ਚੰਦ ਉਪਾਇ ਜਗਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮਾਣੀਐ।

ਬਾਸਕੁ ਨੇਤ੍ਰੈ ਪਾਇ ਮੇਰੁ ਮਧਾਣੀਐ। ਸਾਇਰੁ ਮਥਿ ਵਿਰੋਲਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਅਮਰ ਸਤਾਣੀਐ।

ਅਠਛਿਅ ਰਤਨ ਉਪਾਇ ਸੁਤੁਧਹਿ ਸਮਾਣੀਐ। ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਸਿਰੇ ਤਿਨਿ ਜਾਣੀਐ। ਆਪੇ ਅਲਖ ਅਪਾਰੁ ਗੁਰਸਬਦਿ ਪਛਾਣੀਐ ॥(੧)

...

ਗੁਰਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਸਚੇ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਾ, ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤੂ ਸਲਾਹਣਾ ਸਚੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਵਾ. (੩੫)

(ਪਟਨੇ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇ ਗ੍ਰੰਥੀ) Bhai Sukha Singh Jee's Dasam Granth Bir does not match other Dasam Granth Birs and the above is proof of that.

If stuff like ਮਾਲਕੌਸ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ can be added into a Bir of Guru Granth Sahib Jee, then I don't know why people are so ignorant and do not want to realise the truth that stuff has been added into Bhai Sukha Singh Jee's Dasam Granth Bir (either by him or someone else).