Khalsa Raj Vs Khalistan- Good Article

[SikhKosh 302]

That article is flawed, secondly it doesn't talk about being in favour or against Khalistan.

1) India's constitution was adopted in 1949 and came into effect even a year later. This is a few years after Hindustani Independance, so why are you asking for Khalistani Constitution now? We should focus on how to get rather than sit down and ask what the capital, national dish will be.

2) We are living in foreign countries, but as Bijla Singh pointed out, our rights are defended as Canadians, Americans etc not as Sikhs. PM Manmohan Singh has been unable to adress the concerns of the Sikh Nation - be it internal Indian issues like the Sikh Genocide or internationally the Turban issue. Even in India, Afghan and Pak Sikh refugees live without citizenships for years; them facing such a fate in western countries is understandable, but this shows how Sikhs have no homeland which welcomes them with open arms in times of need. Sikh Gurdwaras in other Asian countries are not cared for by the Indian govt, did they say anything when Gurdwara Pehli Patshahi Baghdad was blown up? Put this in your mind, we don't have a power behind us to speak for Sikhs or THEIR interests, regardless of where they are.

3) Stop sugarcoating Sikhi, it is not only about spirituality. If you read history sometimes (Gurbani orders Sikhs to read history, next time you come across this tuk contemplate on it 'babaneaa kahaneea poot sapoot karen'), you will notice that 19th century sources mention Guru Gobind Singh ordering his Singhs to take control of areas around Anandpur Sahib. I can name you Sikhs and English sources for this. And who can forget our hero, Baba Banda Singh Bahadur, who was sent by Guru Gobind Singh to establish a Just Rule by punishing the Tyrants.

4) Sikhi tops everything, be it capitalism, socialism or Sharia. In fact Bhai Jaswant Singh Khalra touches on this subject in his Canadian speech.

[N30S1NGH 3,139]

Thanks for detailed feedback bijla singh, really appreciate it, just add to below:

. A constitution is written after a country is established. No point in writing it before that.

If we study other minority groups fighting for land like tamil, tibet..they already got rough constitution and they even have acting PM of tibet...i like their model, tibet has pm who is highly educated/diplomatic and is working closely with his counterpart dalai lama-spiritual advisor/leader while dala lamai spiritual leader is public figure, travels all around the world- winning public opnion of mass regarding autonomous tibet... tibet pm - Lobsang Sangay- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobsang_Sangay, working in the background. ..i really think we desperately need constitution rough drafted and hopefully get everyone to agree on broader constituation points then move from there. May be thats why other groups including many sikhs themselves are not taking concept of khalistan seriously, we have nothing, nothing rough drafted.

[DeccanSingh 15]

Thanks for detailed feedback bijla singh, really appreciate it, just add to below:

If we study other minority groups fighting for land like tamil, tibet..they already got rough constitution and they even have acting PM of tibet...i like their model, tibet has pm who is highly educated/diplomatic and is working closely with his counterpart dalai lama-spiritual advisor/leader while dala lamai spiritual leader is public figure, travels all around the world- winning public opnion of mass regarding autonomous tibet... tibet pm - Lobsang Sangay- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobsang_Sangay, working in the background. ..i really think we desperately need constitution rough drafted and hopefully get everyone to agree on broader constituation points then move from there. May be thats why other groups including many sikhs themselves are not taking concept of khalistan seriously, we have nothing, nothing rough drafted.

To start with Sikhi imbues diversity in many forms. We have Nihungs, Nirmalas, Udasis and many others on the sidelines. What do they receive out of Khalistan? Traditionally many Udasis such as the Suthra Shahi branches did not retain their kesh . Even today many Udasis are devoid of facial hair and adorn tilaks. What happens to them? Will they be put through a forced process of osmosis and made into what the mainstream wants them to be or will they retain their unique individuality? Will the Nihungs consume meat or will they have a panthic rehat police after them 24/7? Will Hazoor Sahib still perform a sargun saroop aarti or will the rehat police also ban that? So far we haven't been able to prove the morality of Khalistan, other than Sikhs will be free, so when will we draft a constitution? And will all Sikhs be free? Maybe the panth should resolve all these differences before diving headfirst into the notion of an independent country or we will end up like another India.

[InderjitS 1,243]

That Gurdwara argument is weak which is usually used by communists. How many successful business men around the world are divorced? yet no one in their right mind would say to them "you don't even have your house in order then surely that means you cannot run a successful business". Managing a Gurdwara and country are two different things.

Surely the Sikhs won't do any worse than the Hindus and Muslims who are ruling India and Pakistan. If our track record is anything to go by when we did have our own country, we would be better than them.

If you're implying I have communist thinking, I can assure you this is not the case. I was simply trying to point out that if you look at the amount of corruption and bickering over trivial issues, caste wars, chair wars, elections in Gurdwarey we can see the mentality of Sikhs not only in the West but in many other countries. At the moment we have SGPC/DGPC in bed with GOI, we all know what a mess they have created they of course are not suitable to lead themselves let alone the masses. Until such time we find suitable Gursikhs to run such a country which I'm all for, I cannot see it being a success at this current moment.

At the time of Maharajah Ranjit Singh, there was more ekta than we have now as we had a suitable leader. Some may question his qualities, but at least he had compassion, did not neglect public affairs for pleasure like leaders do nowadays and was a brilliant administrator.

Under Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, we had great chances of securing Khalsa Raj had India been a true democracy; and at this time the quantity and significantly quality of Gursikhs was far higher in number than we have now. It is possible the demands for a separate state would not have been made had GOI met our basic requests in the Anandpur Sahib resolution for Sikhs to live as free citizens in an autonomous state.

[InderjitS 1,243]

ok 2nd set of questions just came via stream of thoughts while i wait for draft for constitution..please feel free to add long ..i am hoping this thread to be question and answer repository:

Please explain why if yes or no:

1. Would khalistan support death penalty? or life in imprisonment?

2. Would khalistan support abortion (due to rape cases)?

3. Would khalistan support rehablitation/redemption programs for worst criminals- child molesters, rapist, killers, murders, war criminals?

4. Would khalistan support america type of captlism type model? or cuba? socialism? or canada bit of both?

5. Would khalistan support free health care?

6. Would khalistan support unionized type of work?

7. Would khalistan western style investment, stocks type of plays?

Social/life style:

1 Would khalistan support local kids having outdoor dating boyfreind and girlfreind- kids trying to find a match? or it would strictly controlled by khalsa police?

2. Would khalistan support chill out place? like playdium-gaming arenas, light clubbing (no drinks)

3. Would khalistan support cinemas/theatres? hollywood movies? bollywood movies?

Sports

1. Would khalistan support open swimming for girls in pools?

2. Would khalistan support tennis with shorts?

Misc.

1. Would khalistan supports all sorts of movement within peta, environmentalist, feminist, gun movements etc?

2. How will be police and miltary structure in khalistan? would policing will be given to all and expecting 3rd party non authorized sikhs policing streets?

During Maharajah Ranjit Singh's reign, they abolished the death penalty, was very tolerant towards other faiths, employed the best minds far and wide regardless of faith. This is the type of cosmopolitan Raj we need. Once established and Sikh parchar is spread and as long as we are not embroiled in wars, many I feel will follow Sikhi automatically and this will sow the seed of the wider Khalsa raj. The Maryada to be followed will have to be the SRM and not AKJ, Taksal or Nihang maryadas - eventhough as I've said before 99% of Maryada is the same their are only minor differences.

Purpose of the AS resolution:

1. Propagation of Sikhism, its ethical values and code of conduct to combat atheism.

2. Preservation and keeping alive the concept of distinct and sovereign identity of the Panth and building up of appropriate condition in which the national sentiments and aspirations of the Sikh Panth will find full expression, satisfaction and facilities for growth.

3. Eradication of poverty and starvation through increased production and more equitable distribution of wealth and also the establishment of a just social order sans exploitation of any kind.

4. Vacation of discrimination on the basis of caste, creed or any other ground in keeping with basic principles of Sikhism.

5. Removal of disease and ill health, checking the use of intoxicants and provision of full facilities for the growth of physical well-being so as to prepare and enthuse the Sikh Nation for the national defense. For the achievement of the aforesaid purposes, the Shiromani Akali Dal owned it as its primary duty to inculcate among the Sikh religious fervour and a sense of pride in their great socio-spiritual heritage through the following measures:

(a). Reiteration of the concept of unity of God, meditation on His Name, recitation of gurbani, inculcation of faith in the Holy Sikh Gurus as well as in Guru Granth Sahib Ji and other appropriate measures for such a purpose.

(b). Grooming at the Sikh Missionary College the Sikh youth with inherent potential to become accomplished preachers, ragis, dhadis and poets so that the propagation of Sikhism, its tenets and traditions and its basic religious values could be taken up more effectively and vigorously.

©. Baptizing the Sikhs on a mass scale with particular emphasis on schools and colleges wherein the teachers as well as the taught shall be enthused through regular study circles.

(d). Revival of the religious institution of dasvandh among the Sikhs.

(e). Generating a feeling of respect for Sikh intellectuals including writers and preachers, who also would be enthused to improve upon their accomplishments.

(f). Streamlining the administration of the gurdwaras by giving better training to their workers. Appropriate steps would also be taken to maintain gurdwara building in proper condition. The representatives of the party in the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee would be directed to pull their weight towards these ends.

(g). Making suitable arrangements for error free publications of gurbani, promoting research in the ancient and modern Sikh history, translating holy gurbani into other languages and producing first-rate literature on Sikhism.

(h). Taking appropriate measures for the enactment of an All India Gurdwaras Act with a view to improving the administration of the gurdwaras throughout the country and to reintegrate the traditional preaching sects of Sikhism like Udasis and Nirmalas, without in any way encroaching upon the properties of their maths.

(i). Taking necessary steps to bring the Sikh gurdwaras all over the world under a single system of administration with a view to running them according to the basic Sikh forms and to pool their resources for the propagation of Sikhism on a wider and more impressive scale.

(j). Striving to free access to all those holy Sikh shrines, including Nanakana Sahib, form which the Sikh Panth has been separated, for their pilgrimage and proper upkeep.

[SikhKosh 302]

And did Neo just say Buddhist have no country? What about Bhutan where it is the state religion and proselytism is forbidden? Cambodja is a Buddhist country as well. Then there are a few other countries with Buddhist majorities like Sri Lanka, Thailand and Burma.

[N30S1NGH 3,139]

To start with Sikhi imbues diversity in many forms. We have Nihungs, Nirmalas, Udasis and many others on the sidelines. What do they receive out of Khalistan? Traditionally many Udasis such as the Suthra Shahi branches did not retain their kesh . Even today many Udasis are devoid of facial hair and adorn tilaks. What happens to them? Will they be put through a forced process of osmosis and made into what the mainstream wants them to be or will they retain their unique individuality? Will the Nihungs consume meat or will they have a panthic rehat police after them 24/7? Will Hazoor Sahib still perform a sargun saroop aarti or will the rehat police also ban that? So far we haven't been able to prove the morality of Khalistan, other than Sikhs will be free, so when will we draft a constitution? And will all Sikhs be free? Maybe the panth should resolve all these differences before diving headfirst into the notion of an independent country or we will end up like another India.

Re-intergration of udasi and nirmale without any string attached is already mentioned in anadpur sahib resolution, not sure how much new khalistani team who will make charters and constitution will follow that. By looks of it abroad sikhs attitudes towards nirmale and udasi bhek highly unlikely..but gotta be optimistic, will give benefit of doubt to new team of khalstan who will charter rights and freedom and constituation.

During Maharajah Ranjit Singh's reign, they abolished the death penalty, was very tolerant towards other faiths, employed the best minds far and wide regardless of faith. This is the type of cosmopolitan Raj we need. Once established and Sikh parchar is spread and as long as we are not embroiled in wars, many I feel will follow Sikhi automatically and this will sow the seed of the wider Khalsa raj. The Maryada to be followed will have to be the SRM and not AKJ, Taksal or Nihang maryadas - eventhough as I've said before 99% of Maryada is the same their are only minor differences

Thanks inderjit singh for important point, its been said maharaja ranjit singh dristhi (living universal gurbani message via actions) was blessed by baba sahib singh bedi- general of sikh panth, and maharaja used to do 25 japji sahib a day to continue to have a clear perception of sikh ideals.

And did Neo just say Buddhist have no country? What about Bhutan where it is the state religion and proselytism is forbidden? Cambodja is a Buddhist country as well. Then there are a few other countries with Buddhist majorities like Sri Lanka, Thailand and Burma.

Buddhism have many branches/school of thoughts (folllow somewhat same structure as puratan sikhi- udasi-shabad surat yog aspect within gurbani/their matras of parbhram, nihang follow bhakti shakti aspect of parbhram within gurbani, nirmale-bhagti gyan aspect of parbhram within gurbani), so they have no centralized country they can really call it home but despite of that their dynamic parchar have reached everywhere in the world as its different school of thoughts are flourishing, i guess their structure is different its like we are saying akj have country, taksal have a country not any centeralized place.

Not everyone can relate to one static structure ie- be it sarbat khalsa- khalistan or in spiritual... sometimes one have sacrifice static structure for great picture of dyanamic parchar to others and dyanamic outlook of life. We have similiar concept how do you reconcile sikh one centralized place- khalistan with nihang outlook life of living chakarvarti- always moving in actual action and in consciousness never static never confined..!!!!!!!!!!!!

[N30S1NGH 3,139]

Under Sant Jarnail Singh Ji, we had great chances of securing Khalsa Raj had India been a true democracy; and at this time the quality and significantly quality of Gursikhs was far higher in number than we have now. It is possible the demands for a separate state would not have been made had GOI met our basic requests in the Anandpur Sahib resolution for Sikhs to live as free citizens in an autonomous state.

Thanks for this pointer veer so if i understood correctly- we should continue to strive for basic request in anand pur sahib resolution in an autonomous state- baby step before moving out to big step.?

I don't mind either way as long as we are working on something, what i do mind and is concerning sikh youths have no sense of direction getting tottally high on just a idea and tiger style rap style songs on 1984 leading to raw emotions and anger, empty rhetoric etc without in touch and harmony with ground being- gurbani overall reality...!!!

[SikhKosh 302]

Looks like you have exceeded your daily dose of Sukhnidhaan.

[N30S1NGH 3,139]

Looks like you have exceeded your daily dose of Sukhnidhaan.

Hehe no bro just about to get started hehe.

[InderjitS 1,243]

Thanks for this pointer veer so if i understood correctly- we should continue to strive for basic request in anand pur sahib resolution in an autonomous state- baby step before moving out to big step.?

I don't mind either way as long as we are working on something, what i do mind and is concerning sikh youths have no sense of direction getting tottally high on just a idea and tiger style rap style songs on 1984 leading to raw emotions and anger, empty rhetoric etc without in touch and harmony with ground being- gurbani overall reality...!!!

To put it frankly 'any' rights in Punjab for Sikhs that are not controlled by an oppressive regime are a bonus. If they said tomorrow you can have a separate state, even better a distinct Country we would bite their hand off. By the same token Sikhs also have to take small progressive steps and fight for our rights at a political level. Creating awareness of who are we are is a fantastic start and the use of the web for people wanting to learn about Sikhi through various channels has been a God send. Unless a miracle happens and with a complete lack of military or martial skills, Sikhs as it stands are not ready to fight with arms. Sad to say but the Sipahi aspect in the majority of us has diminished considerably.

[InderjitS 1,243]

Re-intergration of udasi and nirmale without any string attached is already mentioned in anadpur sahib resolution, not sure how much new khalistani team who will make charters and constitution will follow that. By looks of it abroad sikhs attitudes towards nirmale and udasi bhek highly unlikely..but gotta be optimistic, will give benefit of doubt to new team of khalstan who will charter rights and freedom and constituation.

Sikhi in the past was a mosaic of different schools of thought and each had defined roles that collectively made the Khalsa Panth much stronger. These days it is too one sided and hence controversies over petty issues arise. Obviously Sant Ji was aware of the Sikh demands in the resolution and had fully signed up to each point, so I'm fully behind their re-integration.

Disclaimer - I'm not a Sanatanist/Niddar Supporter :nono:

[InderjitS 1,243]

Sorry just noticed, this 'no' smiley seems like it's waving it's middle finger :omg:

[akalinihangguptsingh 11]

There is unfortunately whether we like it or not, so much division within our own people and 'sects' etc that how can we have our own seperate country and make it flourish if we already squabble amoungst ourselves?

[POODNA 112]

A Khalistan with a 'Goveronment' will be no better than India. Khalistan should be run on the political sytem instigated by Guru Har Gobind- 5 Takht's. Government is a British creation we must drop. We have become institutionalised by British ways and we must learn to think outside the box again.