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Pakhandian Ne Paya "maun Vrat Akhand Path" Da Bharam

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Veerjio, before I provide counter evidence, I would like to know if you guys believe Prahlaad actually existed as in a real person or Guru Sahb has mentioned his popular story (in the indian subcontinent) just to guide the Sikhs? Note: Prahlaad is a mythological character in Bhagvat Puran.

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Veerjio, before I provide counter evidence, I would like to know if you guys believe Prahlaad actually existed as in a real person or Guru Sahb has mentioned his popular story (in the indian subcontinent) just to guide the Sikhs? Note: Prahlaad is a mythological character in Bhagvat Puran.

OH-MY-GOD!!! so you don't believe Guru Jee has written in Bani to be the truth???? this is one of those rare occasions which calls for a triple facepalm

Triple-facepalm.jpg

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Veerjio, before I provide counter evidence, I would like to know if you guys believe Prahlaad actually existed as in a real person or Guru Sahb has mentioned his popular story (in the indian subcontinent) just to guide the Sikhs? Note: Prahlaad is a mythological character in Bhagvat Puran.

These missionaries are truly the frog in the well. They live in a box. They have no morals.

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OH-MY-GOD!!! so you don't believe Guru Jee has written in Bani to be the truth????

Jonny Paji where has SikhiInspire Ji said, what you have inferred above? He is merely relaying the point that the Hindu's believe Prahlada to be a mythical daitya. SikhiInspire believes in Gurbani. So do you Paji of course and all of us Sikhs (regardless of if our interpretations on certain points may differ occasionally). Albeit that SikhiInspire Ji does not literally believe in daitya's, asura's or mythological creatures often used in stories in various cultures from the Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Indians, Chinese etc. Do you believe that Narasinh literally existed in the form as depicted in numerous paintings or that the whole story has been included as a metaphor in Gurbani relating to sincere devotion to Akaal Purakh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prahlada

They have no morals.

Bir'ay if someone dares interpret Gurbani in a different way from you - in this case SikhiInspire Ji - does that mean he has no morals?

So if he doesn't believe the Draupadi extra length sari Mahabharat story literally (but believes it to be a metaphor in Gurbani) does that make him immoral?

Furthermore, Jonny Paji and Akalifauj Ji may I respectfully ask if you literally believe what is written in Bachittar Natak relating to all 10 Guru Sahibaan between 1469-1708 having all supposedly being Hindu Kings in their previous lives from solely the two clans of Bedi and Sodhi?

Both clans apparently descended (as described in Bachittar Natak) from the Hindu King called Ram Chander and the SuryaVanshi dynasty which itself owes it's origins to the Sun God.

And do you further literally believe that these Hindu Kings did a backroom deal in this previous era on how to carve up the future GurGaddi between 1469-1708?

Bachittar Natak (Chapter 4) Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji

ਰਿਖੰ ਭੇਸ ਕੀਯੰ ॥ ਤਿਸੈ ਰਾਜ ਦੀਯੰ ॥੫॥

रिखं भेस कीयं ॥ तिसै राज दीयं ॥५॥

He put on the garb of a sage (rishi) and gave his kingdom to the reciter (Amrit Rai)5.

ਰਹੇ ਹੋਰਿ ਲੋਗੰ ॥ ਤਜੇ ਸਰਬ ਸੋਗੰ ॥

रहे होरि लोगं ॥ तजे सरब सोगं ॥

The people tried to the king to do so, but, he had abandoned all sorrows.

ਧਨੰ ਧਾਮ ਤਿਆਗੇ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭੰ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪਾਗੇ ॥੬॥

धनं धाम तिआगे ॥ प्रभं प्रेम पागे ॥६॥

And leaving his wealth and property, absorbed himself in divine love.6.

ਅੜਿਲ ॥

अड़िल ॥

ARIL

ਬੇਦੀ ਭਏ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ਰਾਜ ਕਹ ਪਾਇ ਕੈ ॥ ਦੇਤ ਭਯੋ ਬਰਦਾਨ ਹੀਐ ਹੁਲਸਾਇ ਕੈ ॥

बेदी भए प्रसंन राज कह पाइ कै ॥ देत भयो बरदान हीऐ हुलसाइ कै ॥

Having been bestowed the kingdom, the Bedis were very much pleased. With happy heart, he predicted this boon:

ਜਬ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਲਿ ਮੈ ਹਮ ਆਨ ਕਹਾਇਹੈਂ ॥ ਹੋ ਜਗਤ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਿ ਤੋਹਿ ਪਰਮ ਪਦ ਪਾਇਹੈਂ ॥੭॥

जब नानक कलि मै हम आन कहाइहैं ॥ हो जगत पूज करि तोहि परम पद पाइहैं ॥७॥

When in the Iron age, I shall be called Nanak, you will attain the Supreme State and be worshipped by the world."7.

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥

दोहरा ॥

DOHRA

ਲਵੀ ਰਾਜ ਦੇ ਬਨਿ ਗਏ ਬੇਦੀਅਨ ਕੀਨੋ ਰਾਜ ॥

लवी राज दे बनि गए बेदीअन कीनो राज ॥

The descendants of Lava, after handing over the kingdom, went to the forest, and the Bedis (descendants of Kusha) began to rule.

ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਭੋਗੀਯੰ ਭੂਅ ਕਾ ਸਕਲ ਸਮਾਜ ॥੮॥

भांति भांति तिनि भोगीयं भूअ का सकल समाज ॥८॥

They enjoyed all comforts of the earth in various ways.8.

ਚੌਪਈ ॥

चौपई ॥

CHAUPAI

ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਅ ਬੇਦ ਸੁਨਬੋ ਤੁਮ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਚਤੁਰ ਬੇਦ ਸੁਨਿ ਭੂਅ ਕੋ ਦੀਆ ॥

त्रितीअ बेद सुनबो तुम कीआ ॥ चतुर बेद सुनि भूअ को दीआ ॥

O Sodhi king! You have listened to the recitation of three Vedas, and while listening to the fourth, you gave away your kingdom.

ਤੀਨ ਜਨਮ ਹਮਹੂੰ ਜਬ ਧਰਿਹੈਂ ॥ ਚਉਥੇ ਜਨਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੁਹਿ ਕਰਿਹੈਂ ॥੯॥

तीन जनम हमहूं जब धरिहैं ॥ चउथे जनम गुरू तुहि करिहैं ॥९॥

When I shall have taken three births, you will be made the Guru in he fourth birth."9.

ਉਤ ਰਾਜਾ ਕਾਨਨਿਹ ਸਿਧਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਤ ਇਨ ਰਾਜ ਕਰਤ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਯੋ ॥

उत राजा काननिह सिधायो ॥ इत इन राज करत सुख पायो ॥

That (Sodhi) king left for the forest, and this (Bedi) king absorbed himself in royal pleasures.

ਕਹਾ ਲਗੇ ਕਰਿ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਬਢਨ ਤੇ ਅਧਿਕ ਡਰਾਊਂ ॥੧੦॥

कहा लगे करि कथा सुनाऊं ॥ ग्रंथ बढन ते अधिक डराऊं ॥१०॥

To what extent, I should narrate the story? It is feared that this book will become voluminous.10.

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SinghSabha1699 Time and Time Again I have said listen to Katha Of Bachitar Natak... We ended the Bachitar Natak Discussion.

Please answer the Sant Question.

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Jonny Paji where has SikhiInspire Ji said, what you have inferred above? He is merely relaying the point that the Hindu's believe Prahlada to be a mythical daitya. SikhiInspire believes in Gurbani. So do you Paji of course and all of us Sikhs (regardless of if our interpretations on certain points may differ occasionally). Albeit that SikhiInspire Ji does not literally believe in daitya's, asura's or mythological creatures often used in stories in various cultures from the Greeks, Romans, Vikings, Indians, Chinese etc. Do you believe that Harnakash literally existed in the form as depicted in numerous paintings or that the whole story has been included as a metaphor in Gurbani relating to sincere devotion to Akaal Purakh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prahlada

Bir'ay if someone dares interpret Gurbani in a different way from you - in this case SikhiInspire Ji - does that mean he has no morals?

So if he doesn't believe the Draupadi extra length sari Mahabharat story literally (but believes it to be a metaphor in Gurbani) does that make him immoral?

We don't care about anyone beliefs. Sikhinspire made accusations of Sikhi saying humans cannot become Sants and the term Sant is only used for Guru Sahib and Vaheguru. Now we have presented Gurbani to counter what he has said and he is no where to be seen. This means he has no morals; not willing to accept Gurbani. Gurbani says Prahlaad is a Sant. And Sikhinspire turns around and says Sant Prahlaad didn't even exist and is a mythical character. This is calling Gurbani a lair.

And you always have the need to bring in other topics not being discussed to throw dust on the truth being presented. Do you know who else does this when they can't take the heat. Bickering women. So for now on, until you straighten yourself out and start acting like man, you will be called Janani. When you show some improvement by discussing on the points being discussed i will move from Janani to Bhenji. When you completely stop your Janani ways, then I will start refering to you as brother. But not until you drop your Janani ways.

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We ended the Bachitar Natak Discussion.

Please answer the Sant Question.

Bir'ay I was not involved in the sub-discussion regarding the exact meaning of the word Sant.

I even "liked" your Gurbani input :-)

Sikhinspire made accusations of Sikhi saying humans cannot become Sants and the term Sant is only used for Guru Sahib and Vaheguru.

1699 = That's his interpretation of Sikhi bir'ay. SikhiInspire Ji feels that only Guru Sahib and Sri Vaheguru embody perfection and that thus all others (not being 100% perfect) are thus outside the definition of Sant (if I am understanding Bhai Sahib's point of view correctly - though I may be wrong).

Now we have presented Gurbani to counter what he has said and he is no where to be seen. This means he has no morals; not willing to accept Gurbani.

1699 = Give the brother some time to log on (as opposed to accusing him of no morals) and we might just get somewhere.

Gurbani says Prahlaad is a Sant. And Sikhinspire turns around and says Sant Prahlaad didn't even exist and is a mythical character. This is calling Gurbani a lair.

1699 = SikhiInspire stated that Prahlaad did not literally exist as the Hindu's themselves concede that Prahlaad Ji was a daitya (a mythological "asura") and that the metaphor was one of devotion to Akaal Purakh. In no way did SikhInspire Ji call Gurbani a liar - his interpretation of the references to Prahlaad merely differ from yours. Is that so hard to swallow? Given that you likely both agree on 95% of things relating to Sikhi.

And you always have the need to bring in other topics not being discussed to throw dust on the truth being presented. Do you know who else does this when they can't take the heat. Bickering women. So for now on, until you straighten yourself out and start acting like man, you will be called Janani. When you show some improvement by discussing on the points being discussed i will move from Janani to Bhenji. When you completely stop your Janani ways, then I will start refering to you as brother. But not until you drop your Janani ways.

1699 = Haha this must be the funniest paragraph on the site today :-) You're always welcome to call Das as Janani bir'ay hahaha :-) Especially if you can answer the Janani's question relating to Chapter 4 that I noticed you skilfully swerved via the above paragraph :-)

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I certainly believe it is a sorry day for Sikhs of the day, a shameful one indeed, who believe in Hindu mythological characters. You guys have proved that you have never attended any university, let alone get some quality education if you are still believing in demons and devils. Also, if that would have been the case you must have read about some basic rules to debating.

This little story would make a lot of sense:

"Once a wise man said in sangat that Bhalwaans have no brains as they spend all their energy on eating and on body building. The bhalwaans rounded him up and beat him badly. Then they asked him- How dare you call us brainless?. All he said was- Do I need to say anything more now?" (Hopefully the wise ones would get this, others you need to reappear on this earth and spend some time reading tolstoy, dostoevsky, dumas, gamsatov and enhance you brain power).

For Jhonny101, Akalifauj, hsingh8963 veerjio, this would make sense too:

You-are-Proof-that-evolution-can-go-in-r

I could have provided gurbani references to again prove sant can be only used for guru sahb and akal purakh, not any mortal, no exception. Prahlaad is a myth. Guru Sahb have used the "free form excerpting" to tell the very prevalent mythological story to explain sikhs about having faith in akal purakh. Its other thing, a very few have actually understood what guru sahb meant. Most are lakeer de fakeer.

But I can spend my 10 mins which I would have spent convincing the already-convinced-by-some-sant/bhramgyani-sikhs in a better manner.

Here are a few suggestions:

1. Spend some time to learn about universe. Forget about the picture you have for waheguru which ends at earth. Go beyond it, there is a lot of space after that. Maybe you' ll get some gyan there.

2. Start reading some intellectuals and then come to gurbani, go step by step, don't listen to anpadh babe, sant, bhramgyani. Understand gurbani yourself. Expand you mind for it to fit you. I suggested some authors above.

3. Come out of bahman trap. Its all myth. They themselves say it and its so stupid that sikhs actually believe it to be a true historical event. When you brain expands to visualize the universe (which is almost 91 billion light years-do you know how big this number is?), then you might be able to understand sikhi.

4. Please don't surprise me by saying that if guru maharaj has referred to fish climbing tree, you believe that to be true??? i am not saying gurbani is wrong, but that it mentions some things for entirely different meaning. If you believe, then earth is doomed, homo sapiens are actually brainless.

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Sikhinspire ji.

We can come back to prahlad shortly.

But please answer the Sant Question. A Several Tuks Of Gurbani Were Given.

Do you accept that Sant has many uses ?

Please everyone refrain from personal attacks .

Also.

SinghSabha Ji please again just listen to Katha of Bachitar Natak.

You can even discuss your points with giani sher singh if you are willing we can try to get it set up

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sikhi inspire jee, please provide your counter argument. We are all here to learn. I want to know your perspective. Whether or not you believe Bhagat Prahladh jee existed or not is your own marzi, but point is, Gurbani refers to someone other than Guru Sahib and Vaheguru as Sant before that you said Gurbani does not believe this. Can you accept this much at least if not then present your counter view because we are all curious to know.

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Why can't sikhinspire answer the simple question. He writes two long post but can't take 5 minutes out and answer the simple question.

And his side kick is still up to his janani ways. I don't expect him to change.

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Akalifauj Ji may I respectfully ask if you literally believe what is written in Bachittar Natak relating to all 10 Guru Sahibaan between 1469-1708 about them all supposedly being Hindu Kings in their previous lives from solely the two clans of Bedi and Sodhi?

Both clans apparently descended (as described in Bachittar Natak) from the Hindu King called Ram Chander and the SuryaVanshi dynasty which itself owes it's origins to the mythological Sun God. Do you believe that the Sun God is real or mythological?

Do you accept that Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj states that there is no such thing that Hindu mythology claims to be dhaula bull (sheshnaag) supporting planet earth? Or are you going to say that because Giani Sher Singh did katha of Chandi di Vaar where the mythological bull is mentioned that somehow to you this means it must literally exist (contrary to what Gurbani states).

And do you further literally believe that these Hindu Kings did a backroom deal in this previous era on how to carve up the future GurGaddi between 1469-1708? (HSingh8963 bir'ay, Giani Ji from Ambala literally does believe our Guru Sahibaan were supposedly Hindu Kings in a previous life and that they literally did do a deal to carve up the order of GurGaddi succession in their supposedly previous Hindu incarnations ... in contrast to pro-Gurmat parcharaks like Bhai Panthpreet Singh Khalsa Ji who assert that GurGaddi succession was not pre-determined by a bunch of Hindu Kings but in fact occurred during 1469-1708 on the basis of Bibek Buddhi, Seva and Kamai as the deciding criteria).

Bachittar Natak (Chapter 4) Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji

ਰਿਖੰ ਭੇਸ ਕੀਯੰ ॥ ਤਿਸੈ ਰਾਜ ਦੀਯੰ ॥੫॥
रिखं भेस कीयं ॥ तिसै राज दीयं ॥५॥
He put on the garb of a sage (rishi) and gave his kingdom to the reciter (Amrit Rai)5.

ਰਹੇ ਹੋਰਿ ਲੋਗੰ ॥ ਤਜੇ ਸਰਬ ਸੋਗੰ ॥
रहे होरि लोगं ॥ तजे सरब सोगं ॥
The people tried to tell the king not to do so, but, he had abandoned all sorrows.

ਧਨੰ ਧਾਮ ਤਿਆਗੇ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭੰ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪਾਗੇ ॥੬॥
धनं धाम तिआगे ॥ प्रभं प्रेम पागे ॥६॥
And leaving his wealth and property, absorbed himself in divine love.6.

ਅੜਿਲ ॥
अड़िल ॥
ARIL

ਬੇਦੀ ਭਏ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ਰਾਜ ਕਹ ਪਾਇ ਕੈ ॥ ਦੇਤ ਭਯੋ ਬਰਦਾਨ ਹੀਐ ਹੁਲਸਾਇ ਕੈ ॥
बेदी भए प्रसंन राज कह पाइ कै ॥ देत भयो बरदान हीऐ हुलसाइ कै ॥
Having been bestowed the kingdom, the Bedis were very much pleased. With happy heart, he predicted this boon:

ਜਬ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਲਿ ਮੈ ਹਮ ਆਨ ਕਹਾਇਹੈਂ ॥ ਹੋ ਜਗਤ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਿ ਤੋਹਿ ਪਰਮ ਪਦ ਪਾਇਹੈਂ ॥੭॥
जब नानक कलि मै हम आन कहाइहैं ॥ हो जगत पूज करि तोहि परम पद पाइहैं ॥७॥
When in the Iron age, I shall be called Nanak, you will attain the Supreme State and be worshipped by the world."7.

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥
दोहरा ॥
DOHRA

ਲਵੀ ਰਾਜ ਦੇ ਬਨਿ ਗਏ ਬੇਦੀਅਨ ਕੀਨੋ ਰਾਜ ॥
लवी राज दे बनि गए बेदीअन कीनो राज ॥
The descendants of Lava, after handing over the kingdom, went to the forest, and the Bedis (descendants of Kusha) began to rule.

ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਭੋਗੀਯੰ ਭੂਅ ਕਾ ਸਕਲ ਸਮਾਜ ॥੮॥
भांति भांति तिनि भोगीयं भूअ का सकल समाज ॥८॥
They enjoyed all comforts of the earth in various ways.8.

ਚੌਪਈ ॥
चौपई ॥
CHAUPAI

ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਅ ਬੇਦ ਸੁਨਬੋ ਤੁਮ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਚਤੁਰ ਬੇਦ ਸੁਨਿ ਭੂਅ ਕੋ ਦੀਆ ॥
त्रितीअ बेद सुनबो तुम कीआ ॥ चतुर बेद सुनि भूअ को दीआ ॥
O Sodhi king! You have listened to the recitation of three Vedas, and while listening to the fourth, you gave away your kingdom.

ਤੀਨ ਜਨਮ ਹਮਹੂੰ ਜਬ ਧਰਿਹੈਂ ॥ ਚਉਥੇ ਜਨਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੁਹਿ ਕਰਿਹੈਂ ॥੯॥
तीन जनम हमहूं जब धरिहैं ॥ चउथे जनम गुरू तुहि करिहैं ॥९॥
When I shall have taken three births, you will be made the Guru in he fourth birth."9.

ਉਤ ਰਾਜਾ ਕਾਨਨਿਹ ਸਿਧਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਤ ਇਨ ਰਾਜ ਕਰਤ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਯੋ ॥
उत राजा काननिह सिधायो ॥ इत इन राज करत सुख पायो ॥
That (Sodhi) king left for the forest, and this (Bedi) king absorbed himself in royal pleasures.

ਕਹਾ ਲਗੇ ਕਰਿ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਬਢਨ ਤੇ ਅਧਿਕ ਡਰਾਊਂ ॥੧੦॥
कहा लगे करि कथा सुनाऊं ॥ ग्रंथ बढन ते अधिक डराऊं ॥१०॥
To what extent, I should narrate the story? It is feared that this book will become voluminous.10.

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    • Ok, I think hadiths play a role in the conflict too because they reject each others hadiths. They  basically arguing over one matter but each using a different set of books with different narratives lol  Cant see them reaching a conclusion with that any time soon!   Shias dont like Aisha the child bride. Sikhs are really lucky that we dont have major differences in Sikh sects like muslims and Christian's do. The worst I can think of is the nirankaris and their on going line of gurus but they are pretty much are out of the fold of Sikhi now and did whatever damage they wanted to back in the 80s. 
    • Yes, @MuslimNeighbour, please do enlighten us on this (and other questions we have).
    • That's not entirely true. There is a Hadith (and I'm paraphrasing here as I don't remember all the details) when the prophet initially invited all the quresh tribes to dinner to invite them to Islam. He asked the question, who will be my brother (in faith), my friend and my successor (khalifa). Imam Ali immediately stood up. The prophet asked him to sit down (as he was still quite young, though extremely loyal to the prophet from day one). The prophet asked the question again, and again the same thing happened. On the third time, when Imam Ali stood up, the prophet said, very well, you will be my brother, my friend and my successor. This hadith is found in both sunni and shia books. There is also a verse in the quran (and please correct me if I'm wrong) where Allah says that he chooses his khalifa. Depending on the context of this verse, this could invalidate the khalifate of Abu Bakar and validate the divinity of Ali being the khalifa. There is also a "Hadith-e-Noor" (found in both sunni and shia books) in which the prophet says, Me and Ali are created from the same light. These (and many others) are just some of the points which could point to the divine claim that Imam Ali was indeed the divine successor to the prophet.  But yes, there was plenty of killing of the family of the prophet. And many battles ensued, which resulted in parts of the quran being lost. But...that's a different topic entirely....
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