Was Muhammad A Good Logician?

[Guest Jacfsing2]

Brother, why not end your post as above? You rebutted the other forummer's arguments with some solid answers that - to my knowledge - cannot be disputed.

When you go off on one of your Aisha & Mohammed cut-and-paste sprees it puts people off from reading the decent stuff you reply with. You're doing yourself a huge disservice. Just a suggestion.

I agree with you, he goes to much into one detail anyone mentions Muhammad, when he could post more relevant and important stuff.

[13Mirch]

He is just as enthusiastic. As is nearly every poster here. Gurbani is a vast ocean of knowledge, it isn't restricted to just a few key rivers that we should explore. There isn't an Islamic forum around which would let what we discuss here go by. They would ban it instantly. There are a large variety of topics that correspond to Gurbani.

Our Ancestors fought the Mughals so we could sit here today and talk about these kinds of topics. So we can enrich our own Knowledge of Sikhi and understand why everything happened or is happening. Gurbani is universal and timeless.

The Islamic topic discussed here is presenting Muhammed is a negative light, Almost all Muslim would be unhappy such a discussion is taking place as they perceive him to be perfect.

It is dissection of one of the many facets of his ideology. When Muslims are confronted with it they back away in fear least the perceptions which they have held for life are shattered; especially that sense of elitism that they will be saved from some mythic hellfire.

[Kira]

Yes so we are presenting him in a negative light something Sikhi tells us not to do!?

Read Batchar Natak by Guru Gobind singh Ji. Everything I said about Muhammed is what is there.

Is it true that our 10th Guru ji said we were not to trust them even if they did many thousands of kasams? Something about put your arm in a sack of seasme seeds and how many stick to it thats how many kasams are not to be trusted.

Not to trust the Muslims? I highly doubt that. During the battle of Chamkaur he did warn his Sikhs that we shouldn't trust the words of the invaders as their words were worth nothing. His words proved right when they attacked them as they left Anandpur. However there were Muslims that did aid Guru Sahib as well, such as a muslim ruler (Rai Kalha) I believe whom the Guru Sahib gifted a sword in exchange for his hospitality. Not all Muslims were bad.

Again this is what I know, if someone who's far better at history than me can offer to shed some more light, it would be much appreciated. Our Guru Sahib never went to war against the Muslims. They went to war against the Establishment which was tyrannical and hell-bent on forcing Islam on all. That's why Guru Sahib is referred to as the protector of the helpless. That's why Guru Tegh Bahadur lay down his head to protect those who weren't even a part of his faith, So everyone was free to follow their own path.

It is dissection of one of the many facets of his ideology. When Muslims are confronted with it they back away in fear least the perceptions which they have held for life are shattered; especially that sense of elitism that they will be saved from some mythic hellfire.

I always found the islamic perception of god to be one akin to a naughty child and a father. The naughty child is promised heaven as a means to pacify them into behaving.

strange thoughts on god for me at-least.

[13Mirch]

Yes so we are presenting him in a negative light something Sikhi tells us not to do!?

Ok now we are on the matter and you have responded in such an calm and respectful way. Clear something up for me once and once for all.

Is it true that our 10th Guru ji said we were not to trust them even if they did many thousands of kasams? Something about put your arm in a sack of seasme seeds and how many stick to it thats how many kasams are not to be trusted.

Was it not them who said leave anadpur and we will leave you alone? Obviously my Sikhi Knowledge is not as vast as others on this "Sikh" forum.

That is found in the Sri Gur Panth Prakash and Giani Gian Singh's Naveen. Both mention Gurbilas Patshahi 10 and Bhatt Vahis being their original source for the quote. The Guru was right because, Qur'an (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, though they should not feel that way..

Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context, though historical, still stands valid for many (Sunni) Muslims today as it is per the Hadith they try to resolve the confusion in the Koran.

[ghettosikh]

I know that muslims can be pretty messed up ppl (belive me i had to deap with these ppl for years growing up) but i cant help but have a grudging respect for tge prophet i mean this is a man who lived in a society where different tribes were constantly warring with eachother. The prophet was able to unite these peoples under one banner and his message is now observed in every continent

[Kira]

I know that muslims can be pretty messed up ppl (belive me i had to deap with these ppl for years growing up) but i cant help but have a grudging respect for tge prophet i mean this is a man who lived in a society where different tribes were constantly warring with eachother. The prophet was able to unite these peoples under one banner and his message is now observed in every continent

lol I can relate. I met some really 2 faced muslims in my time. But I did meet some pretty decent and down to earth ones too. Like it or not but muhammad did achieve a massive amount, I mean he built a cult which I dare say is almost akin to stalin's cult personality.

[13Mirch]

lol I can relate. I met some really 2 faced muslims in my time. But I did meet some pretty decent and down to earth ones too. Like it or not but muhammad did achieve a massive amount, I mean he built a cult which I dare say is almost akin to stalin's cult personality.

All cults have an ideological pitfall or pitfalls.

[13Mirch]

I know that muslims can be pretty messed up ppl (belive me i had to deap with these ppl for years growing up) but i cant help but have a grudging respect for tge prophet i mean this is a man who lived in a society where different tribes were constantly warring with eachother. The prophet was able to unite these peoples under one banner and his message is now observed in every continent

Nothing more than realpolitik. These were tribes starved for profit, rapine and luxury. Something the desert or Arabia could not offer them in large sums. Thus Muhammad played to their sensibilities and formed an ideological alternative; without doubt he would have been well aware of the riches of other lands.

[ghettosikh]

This ideology is very dangerous and hinders human progression. I'll admit that it creeps me out knowing that these guys are gonna be the majority sooner or later. When the clash of civilizations does happen what do you think will happen? What stance will we Sikhs take? Im pretty sure this conflict is inevitable look at the modern history of Lebanon, look at Israel and look at India.

[Balkaar]

if you were only as enthusiastic in supporting everything else that is mentioned in "guru ki bani" as you are in defending the discussion of this topic!! is it any wonder why Sikhi is going the way it is?! So islam cannot be discussed on a islamic forum so lets allow it on a SIkh forum.

To think that our great grandfathers fought the moguals.

Yet another mole no doubt!!

Have you ever actually read any of my other posts, particularly those that have to do with Muhammad?