Do Shaheeds Get Mukhti (Liberation) ?

[Guest Gupt]

I am asking this question as I am unsure as to whether Shaheed Singh's or Kaur's actually get mukht/liberated from becoming shaheed, as Gurbani provides no evidence of this?

I understand that the Chali Mukte got liberated by Satguru Sri Gobind Singh Ji, and other shaheeds like Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. But lets forget puratan times because I know all the shaheeds then were brahm gianis but what about from 1984 and ownards? The reason I am asking this is because I recently attended an akath katha where the guy was standing up and explaining how to meet Vaheguru through Gurbani. He even went to explain what manmat is, showing a presentation slide full of manmat 'tools' like a mala and presented Gurbani pangtiya which state and show that using a mala is wrong. However what struck me most is when the guy doing the katha clearly stated that someone who becomes 'shaheed' will not get liberated and not meet Truth, as they have not recognized naam. As before, he presented the Gurbani pangti to prove what he is saying. I can't remember the pangti in Gurmukhi but it translates in English to something like "and they who die on the battlefield, will also not become liberated". It translated to something along those lines. I personally think that he misused the pangti to suit his own needs for the sake of the presentation. But thats what I want to know, is it true that a Shaheed won't get mukht? Is he just dying for the sake of the panth? However before I heard many times that Guru Gobind Singh Ji said something along the lines of "He who dies fighting for the panth will instantly get a throne in my kingdom, or God's kingdom" even though I haven't found a direct source to this. Is this true? Did Satguru Ji say this? I'm surprised nobody in the sangat spoke out against this, they all seemed to be under some kind of control as they guy seemed pretty intimidating to say the least.

[Guest Gupt]

@Preet, I am not going to mention anyone's name or anything but he did have a point about the mala, where in Gurbani does it tell us to use a mala? If anything there are several pangtiya which shows a mala which not achieve anything. He explained this perfectly in the katha, that it is manmat to use a mala as it is like our own way of doing simran. If we followed Gurmat then we would be doing Simran the Guru Ji's way as shown in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I dont want to get into any debates about using mala or not, I am simply stating what was said by the guy in the katha, exactly as i have just said to you. The whole katha was going well up to the point about the shaheeds which I mentioned above. Thats why I started this post.

[simran345 2,500]

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/46950-what-does-gurbani-have-to-say-about-shaheeds-of-sikhism/

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/73019-mukti/page-2

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/71890-how-to-use-mala-to-do-jaaps-or-simran/

[Guest]

Guru nanak dev Ji had a Mala, guru Arjan dev Ji had a Mala, guru hargobind sahib Ji had a Mala. I think every guru had a Mala. So that guy you listened to is wrong.

[singhbj singh 1,267]

I am asking this question as I am unsure as to whether Shaheed Singh's or Kaur's actually get mukht/liberated from becoming shaheed, as Gurbani provides no evidence of this?

I understand that the Chali Mukte got liberated by Satguru Sri Gobind Singh Ji, and other shaheeds like Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. But lets forget puratan times because I know all the shaheeds then were brahm gianis but what about from 1984 and ownards? The reason I am asking this is because I recently attended an akath katha where the guy was standing up and explaining how to meet Vaheguru through Gurbani. He even went to explain what manmat is, showing a presentation slide full of manmat 'tools' like a mala and presented Gurbani pangtiya which state and show that using a mala is wrong. However what struck me most is when the guy doing the katha clearly stated that someone who becomes 'shaheed' will not get liberated and not meet Truth, as they have not recognized naam. As before, he presented the Gurbani pangti to prove what he is saying. I can't remember the pangti in Gurmukhi but it translates in English to something like "and they who die on the battlefield, will also not become liberated". It translated to something along those lines. I personally think that he misused the pangti to suit his own needs for the sake of the presentation. But thats what I want to know, is it true that a Shaheed won't get mukht? Is he just dying for the sake of the panth? However before I heard many times that Guru Gobind Singh Ji said something along the lines of "He who dies fighting for the panth will instantly get a throne in my kingdom, or God's kingdom" even though I haven't found a direct source to this. Is this true? Did Satguru Ji say this? I'm surprised nobody in the sangat spoke out against this, they all seemed to be under some kind of control as they guy seemed pretty intimidating to say the least.

Only Waheguru knows who gets Mukti or not.

I tried looking up Gurbani verses for the word "Soora" but each one meant Spiritual warrior & not Worldly warrior. So if you find one for worldly warrior then please paste the verse with source.

Regards to Mala, some Gurbani verses are pro & some are against.

[harsharan000 3,751]

Dear Gupt Jee,

in my humble opinion, one has not to be a gyani to know things, but just to pay carefull attention to what the Bani says.

What is mukti? Mukti means to be free forever from the cycle of births and deaths.

And this can only happen by merging our surtees in Wahiguru through His Simran, there is no other way nor shortcut.

We also know Wahiguru is the only Truth, as is so His Naam or Shabad also.

We also know, through Bani : Jin Har japeeya se Har hoeeya

So if we do not ever use the tool of His Naam simran bhakti, how can our soul ever merge in Him?

This is not a matter of beleving or debating, it is a simple perefct equation from Gurbani : He who meditates on Him, through His Naam Simran, gets united with Him, being one with Him.

Now if we die willingly for any reason, in this case of Shaheeds, they will have to be reborn once again in a human form to do His bhakti of His Simran, in order to clear all karmas, whether of past, present or future, and not only that, but with this jugtee of His simran, get hold of Shabad Guru within, who will take us into His lap.

There is no other way.

Getting hold of Shabad Guru is only possible by His Simran, that is why in Gurbani so much stress is laid on Naam Simran, by Guru sahibans or Bhagat Janas.

It is the soul which has to merge in the Shabad Dhun , and brother, this only and only is possible by fighting and winning the mind, with His Simran.

The mind is knotted together with the soul, and this knot can only be broken with His Simran.

No knife, no sword, no gun, no atom bomb, can ever break this knot of our soul with the mind, it is only the by the far superior power of Naam, which can release us from the clutches of the mind.

I wished it was that easy to give up one´s life and merge in Him, that would be a very cheap deal to get mukti.

When we die without His Bhakti of His Simran, our mind is very much with us, and there we can not go with it, we have to go as pure naked souls without any blemishes.

His Simran, is the only purifier, plus we do not incurr in any karmas, otherwise without His simran, everything done, is karam, or subh karma, depends on the cases, and as such we shall remain very much in the Cycle of Eighty Four.

Sat Sree Aakal.

[simran345 2,500]

In regards to the mala subject, there are many great Saints and Mahapursh of high avasta that used a mala and still do to do simran. I feel it would be an insult to such great Souls to say they did not have the love for Waheguru, because they used a mala.

Using a mala is to concentration, as the minds tends to wonder off in here, there and everywhere.

A mala maybe used by elderly people as for concentration or if they cannot read Gurbani.

Bhagat Namdev Ji distinguishes between saying Gods name as a ritual or in quantity to quality, showing us saying Gods name should be done from the soul.

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥

Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.

There is but one God. By True Guru's grace, He is obtained.

ਆਨੀਲੇ ਕਾਗਦੁ ਕਾਟੀਲੇ ਗੂਡੀ ਆਕਾਸ ਮਧੇ ਭਰਮੀਅਲੇ ॥

आनीले कागदु काटीले गूडी आकास मधे भरमीअले ॥

Ānīle kāgaḏ kātīle gūdī ākās maḏẖe bẖarmī▫ale.

A boy gets paper, cuts it into a kite and flies it in the sky.

ਪੰਚ ਜਨਾ ਸਿਉ ਬਾਤ ਬਤਊਆ ਚੀਤੁ ਸੁ ਡੋਰੀ ਰਾਖੀਅਲੇ ॥੧॥

पंच जना सिउ बात बतऊआ चीतु सु डोरी राखीअले ॥१॥

Pancẖ janā si▫o bāṯ baṯa▫ū▫ā cẖīṯ so dorī rākẖī▫ale. ||1||

While talking with his mates, he keeps his mind in the string.

ਮਨੁ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਾ ਬੇਧੀਅਲੇ ॥

मनु राम नामा बेधीअले ॥

Man rām nāmā beḏẖī▫ale.

Pierced with the Lord's Name, my mind is so stuck in it,

ਜੈਸੇ ਕਨਿਕ ਕਲਾ ਚਿਤੁ ਮਾਂਡੀਅਲੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

जैसे कनिक कला चितु मांडीअले ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥

Jaise kanik kalā cẖiṯ māʼndī▫ale. ||1|| rahā▫o.

as is of the goldsmith, in his gold craft. Pause.

ਆਨੀਲੇ ਕੁੰਭੁ ਭਰਾਈਲੇ ਊਦਕ ਰਾਜ ਕੁਆਰਿ ਪੁਰੰਦਰੀਏ ॥

आनीले कु्मभु भराईले ऊदक राज कुआरि पुरंदरीए ॥

Ānīle kumbẖ bẖarā▫īle ūḏak rāj ku▫ār puranḏrī▫e.

The young girl in the city brings pitcher and fills it with water.

ਹਸਤ ਬਿਨੋਦ ਬੀਚਾਰ ਕਰਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੀਤੁ ਸੁ ਗਾਗਰਿ ਰਾਖੀਅਲੇ ॥੨॥

हसत बिनोद बीचार करती है चीतु सु गागरि राखीअले ॥२॥

Hasaṯ binoḏ bīcẖār karṯī hai cẖīṯ so gāgar rākẖī▫ale. ||2||

She laughs, makes merry and converses, but keeps her mind fixed in the pitcher.

ਮੰਦਰੁ ਏਕੁ ਦੁਆਰ ਦਸ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਵਨ ਛਾਡੀਅਲੇ ॥

मंदरु एकु दुआर दस जा के गऊ चरावन छाडीअले ॥

Manḏar ek ḏu▫ār ḏas jā ke ga▫ū cẖarāvan cẖẖādī▫ale.

The cow is let loose to graze, out of the mansion, which has ten gates.

ਪਾਂਚ ਕੋਸ ਪਰ ਗਊ ਚਰਾਵਤ ਚੀਤੁ ਸੁ ਬਛਰਾ ਰਾਖੀਅਲੇ ॥੩॥

पांच कोस पर गऊ चरावत चीतु सु बछरा राखीअले ॥३॥

Pāʼncẖ kos par ga▫ū cẖarāvaṯ cẖīṯ so bacẖẖrā rākẖī▫ale. ||3||

The cow grazes five miles away, but keeps her attention fixed on her calf.

ਕਹਤ ਨਾਮਦੇਉ ਸੁਨਹੁ ਤਿਲੋਚਨ ਬਾਲਕੁ ਪਾਲਨ ਪਉਢੀਅਲੇ ॥

कहत नामदेउ सुनहु तिलोचन बालकु पालन पउढीअले ॥

Kahaṯ nāmḏe▫o sunhu ṯilocẖan bālak pālan pa▫udẖī▫ale.

Says Namdev, listen, O Tirlochan, the child is laid in the cradle.

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਬਿਰੂਧੀ ਚੀਤੁ ਸੁ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਰਾਖੀਅਲੇ ॥੪॥੧॥

अंतरि बाहरि काज बिरूधी चीतु सु बारिक राखीअले ॥४॥१॥

Anṯar bāhar kāj birūḏẖī cẖīṯ so bārik rākẖī▫ale. ||4||1||

Within and without engaged in work she (Mother), keeps her thought in her child.

SGGS Ang 972 ??

I would also like to say that there is a difference in saying it is wrong to use a mala and the purpose of using one.

[Guest Gupt]

Guru nanak dev Ji had a Mala, guru Arjan dev Ji had a Mala, guru hargobind sahib Ji had a Mala. I think every guru had a Mala. So that guy you listened to is wrong.

Where is the proof that Guru Nanak, Guru Arjan Dev Ji, Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji had a mala? Just because you see it in this paintings and pictures which aren't even real and are merely designed by artists impressions? And even if they did you can't compare yourself to a Guru, they maybe had one for their own reasons but I highly doubt it. Why would a Guru even need a mala? That's like questioning the Guru. Very wrong indeed.

[Guest Gupt]

If someone wants to use a mala for dharm where is nothing wrong with it. How can something that helps you focus on your phat and jaap considered manmatt? Can't the same be said for anything if you do not practice dharm? Just like what is the point of a dumalla if someone does not practice Sikhi properly..? So many dharmic sants and bhagats had malas.

Because it's clearly manmat! How can you not understand this? If you are doing something in your own way, something which Gurbani does not state then it is of course manmat. How is a mala going to help you focus???? Guru Nanak says: Dhun Meh Dhyan, Dhyan Meh Janiya, Akath Katha Kahani. The way is to listen to the dhun, the sound and focus on it. Now tell me if you are using a mala then where is your attention going to?? The sound or your hand/finger movement moving the mala??? Your attention is obviously going to the hand/finger movement of the mala so how can you follow Guru Nanak's pangti that way? If you wanna do your manmat by all means do it, but stop encouraging others to do it as well. Plus nowhere in Gurbani does it say to calculate your jaaps either. If you can provide a single pangti as to where a mala is allowed then by all means to it. Bhagat Kabir Ji also says that the mala is his tongue, in a pangti. So where's proof the bhagats had malas? Even if they or mahapurakhs did use them, that was probably for their own reasons. We shouldn't look at them and compare ourselves to them because we are still on Khalsa Panth stage, they are on a whole different stage. There's another pangti which says that those mahapurakhs are on such a stage where their actions have no good or bad in them.

[Guest Tarsem]

In regards to the mala subject, there are many great Saints and Mahapursh of high avasta that used a mala and still do to do simran. I feel it would be an insult to such great Souls to say they did not have the love for Waheguru, because they used a mala.

Using a mala is to concentration, as the minds tends to wonder off in here, there and everywhere.

A mala maybe used by elderly people as for concentration or if they cannot read Gurbani.

I would also like to say that there is a difference in saying it is wrong to use a mala and the purpose of using one.

Why don't you look to the Gurus? Why does everyone look at so and so baba, this baba and that baba who use mala? When did the Guru ever use a mala? When did the Guru ever permit anybody to use a mala? Sant Mahapurakhs who use mala may use one for their own reason, not for concentration. That's ridiculous because Guru Nanak says "Dhun Meh Dhyan Dhyan Meh Janiya Gurmukh Akth Kahani". The whole point is to put your focus into the DHUN, the sound, nothing else. How is this being done if you are using your mala? Your attention/focus would obviously be going into your hand/finger movement and not the sound. Thats why I'm saying we shouldn't even look at Sant and compare ourselves to them, because its a fact that they are not using to 'concentrate' as they are already above this. I have no problem with people using mala, whether they think it helps them or not but I dont like when they say its ok to use one because it encourages others to do so, when Gurbani doesn't say its ok. I can understand an old person using one, or anyone for that matter but to say that it's Gurmat and its ok for one to use to concentrate on is just not right.

[singhbj singh 1,267]

ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ ॥

Rāg soraṯẖ.

Raag Sorat'h:

ਭੂਖੇ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥

Bẖūkẖe bẖagaṯ na kījai.

I am so hungry, I cannot perform devotional worship service.

ਯਹ ਮਾਲਾ ਅਪਨੀ ਲੀਜੈ ॥

Yėh mālā apnī lījai.

Here, Lord, take back Your mala.

Source - http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=656&g=1&h=0&r=1&t=1&p=0&fb=0&k=0

ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ॥

Bilāval.

Bilaaval:

ਨਿਤ ਉਠਿ ਕੋਰੀ ਗਾਗਰਿ ਆਨੈ ਲੀਪਤ ਜੀਉ ਗਇਓ ॥

Niṯ uṯẖ korī gāgar ānai līpaṯ jī▫o ga▫i▫o.

Every day, he rises early, and brings a fresh clay pot; he passes his life embellishing and glazing it.

ਤਾਨਾ ਬਾਨਾ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਸੂਝੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਸਿ ਲਪਟਿਓ ॥੧॥

Ŧānā bānā kacẖẖū na sūjẖai har har ras lapti▫o. ||1||

He does not think at all of worldly weaving; he is absorbed in the subtle essence of the Lord, Har, Har. ||1||

ਹਮਾਰੇ ਕੁਲ ਕਉਨੇ ਰਾਮੁ ਕਹਿਓ ॥

Hamāre kul ka▫une rām kahi▫o.

Who in our family has ever chanted the Name of the Lord?

ਜਬ ਕੀ ਮਾਲਾ ਲਈ ਨਿਪੂਤੇ ਤਬ ਤੇ ਸੁਖੁ ਨ ਭਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Jab kī mālā la▫ī nipūṯe ṯab ṯe sukẖ na bẖa▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.

Ever since this worthless son of mine began chanting with his mala, we have had no peace at all! ||1||Pause||

Source - http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&g=1&h=0&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=0&fb=0&Param=856

[Guest]

Where is the proof that Guru Nanak, Guru Arjan Dev Ji, Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji had a mala? Just because you see it in this paintings and pictures which aren't even real and are merely designed by artists impressions? And even if they did you can't compare yourself to a Guru, they maybe had one for their own reasons but I highly doubt it. Why would a Guru even need a mala? That's like questioning the Guru. Very wrong indeed.

Ever been to india and to historical gurduwaras? Ever seen any artifacts of the gurus? Well I have! This picture is Mala of the first guru. http://www.<banned site filter activated>/gurus/Guru%20Nanak/images/Dhilwan_Mala-_Sri_Guru_Nana.jpg

Guru hargobind sahibs Mala is at droli bhai pind near moga.

[simran345 2,500]

Why don't you look to the Gurus? Why does everyone look at so and so baba, this baba and that baba who use mala? When did the Guru ever use a mala? When did the Guru ever permit anybody to use a mala? Sant Mahapurakhs who use mala may use one for their own reason, not for concentration. That's ridiculous because Guru Nanak says "Dhun Meh Dhyan Dhyan Meh Janiya Gurmukh Akth Kahani". The whole point is to put your focus into the DHUN, the sound, nothing else. How is this being done if you are using your mala? Your attention/focus would obviously be going into your hand/finger movement and not the sound. Thats why I'm saying we shouldn't even look at Sant and compare ourselves to them, because its a fact that they are not using to 'concentrate' as they are already above this. I have no problem with people using mala, whether they think it helps them or not but I dont like when they say its ok to use one because it encourages others to do so, when Gurbani doesn't say its ok. I can understand an old person using one, or anyone for that matter but to say that it's Gurmat and its ok for one to use to concentrate on is just not right.

Tarsem Ji who said I look at the Mahapurshs to use a mala and not at the Gurus teachings? That's your own assumption. I only wrote the facts, I never said one should use one did I? I don't think I've wrote anything wrong. By the way I don't use a mala. And where did I write one should compare themselves to a Sant? You should re-read exactly what I wrote as I think you are misinterpreting it and taking it in a different direction. Also where have I encouraged it to be part of Gurmat?

Did you even read Bhagat Namdev jis Bani I wrote and understand it?

[guptsinghji 12]

I am asking this question as I am unsure as to whether Shaheed Singh's or Kaur's actually get mukht/liberated from becoming shaheed, as Gurbani provides no evidence of this?

I understand that the Chali Mukte got liberated by Satguru Sri Gobind Singh Ji, and other shaheeds like Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. But lets forget puratan times because I know all the shaheeds then were brahm gianis but what about from 1984 and ownards? The reason I am asking this is because I recently attended an akath katha where the guy was standing up and explaining how to meet Vaheguru through Gurbani. He even went to explain what manmat is, showing a presentation slide full of manmat 'tools' like a mala and presented Gurbani pangtiya which state and show that using a mala is wrong. However what struck me most is when the guy doing the katha clearly stated that someone who becomes 'shaheed' will not get liberated and not meet Truth, as they have not recognized naam. As before, he presented the Gurbani pangti to prove what he is saying. I can't remember the pangti in Gurmukhi but it translates in English to something like "and they who die on the battlefield, will also not become liberated". It translated to something along those lines. I personally think that he misused the pangti to suit his own needs for the sake of the presentation. But thats what I want to know, is it true that a Shaheed won't get mukht? Is he just dying for the sake of the panth? However before I heard many times that Guru Gobind Singh Ji said something along the lines of "He who dies fighting for the panth will instantly get a throne in my kingdom, or God's kingdom" even though I haven't found a direct source to this. Is this true? Did Satguru Ji say this? I'm surprised nobody in the sangat spoke out against this, they all seemed to be under some kind of control as they guy seemed pretty intimidating to say the least.

. Is this from a PMKC diwan by any chance

[simran345 2,500]

Why don't you look to the Gurus? Why does everyone look at so and so baba, this baba and that baba who use mala? When did the Guru ever use a mala? When did the Guru ever permit anybody to use a mala? Sant Mahapurakhs who use mala may use one for their own reason, not for concentration. I have no problem with people using mala, whether they think it helps them or not but I dont like when they say its ok to use one because it encourages others to do so, when Gurbani doesn't say its ok.

What would be a Sant/Mahapurshs own reasons be for using a mala? On one hand you have no problem with people using a mala, but then you say it's not ok to use one. Sounds like you are pro and con with Malas or are you confused as to if one can be used or not?

My grandmothers cousin used to hold a mala most times I saw her. She never listened to what anybody tried to tell, was always doing simran with her mala. I remember her supporting me in some sad times, although she was a bit stubborn but her love and sharda in Waheguru was lovely to see. Miss my grandma and her ?

Oh I forgot, she lived up to over 100 years old, she was lucky God graced her so many years to do simran.