Is it really Sikh, Sikhi, Sikhism vs Hindu, Hinduism and it's beliefs?

[Guest Haridas]

Saddened Hindu, what country are you from?  I am quite shocked.  Please remember that the vocal minority does not necessarily represent the quiet majority.

My advice to you is not to put your faith in people.  You can see from SGGS, history etc that hatred is not part of our dharam.  SGGS and Guru's Kirpa is always open to you.  Put your faith and attention there instead.

[Not2Cool2Argue]

Yes many sikhs are taught hatred towards hindus. Some sikh ppl are realizing tho that it is not all hindus.it is the government so now most sikh ppl are directing the vitrol and hatred towards the indian government and those that supported its actions in the decade following1984.

Im glad to know that there are hindu ppl like yourselves who come to gurudwaras and want to be part of sikh festivals and diwaans and teach ur children sikh history. 

But there are also hindus especially young brainwashed ones that say im glad this many sikhs were killed by the army and innocents were killed in 84. This of course leads the sikh community who already feel anger after losing a terrible  high-casualty war, to retaliate in mean words. 

As always this means good people like yourself will have to work harder to bridge the gap and to show sikh youngsters, that the hindus they talk of so dismissively are real people and  have good intentions. Only experience will change their mind. Of course when they meet a hindu person who is happy with sikh deaths, then that sikh will realize there r good and bad in every community and everyone should be judged on their own merit.

Its sad that sikhs have to relearn this lesson when the gurus taught it so well with the muslims. There was Aurangzeb but also Akbar. The subedaar of sirhind but also Malerkotlas subedaar. Pir Mian Mir but also the Qazis who wrote fatwas detailing guru arjan dev jis shaheedi.

All communities have good and bad ppl. Even the sophisticated Americans and Europeans are finding it hard to stick with this reasoning in regards to Muslims/Arabs after 911, ISIS, and other terrorist attacks. How can you expect the simple Sikhs to exceed at it?  

 

[Guest Jacfsing2]

20 hours ago, Guest Saddened Hindu said:

Thunderous dominator and Jacfsing2.

So it must be true. Your referring me as You and Your Community is quite hurtful. I haven't taught you or other Sikhs anything and have taken no actions against you or other Sikhs. But when I go to a gurudwara and have to articulate to my 6 year old girl's query that whether Sikhs hate us or not, I really wonder what does the institution stand for. My 6 year old girl sitting in a sangat with her father, both our heads covered in reverence, listens to an 8 year old boy read a speech saying ,"Aj hinduan di pardhanmantri nu maar ke shahidi prapt kiti.....,", "hinduan ne...", "hinduan di...", "hinduan nu..."etc and then asks me why are we here dad when they hate us, it saddens me. Is this the history lesson that we find is imperative to teach so our progeny doesn't have any doubts about our identity? Majority of sangat in gurudwara were Hindus with their head covered n bowed in reverence, most of an age incapable of comprehending the hatred let alone the reason behind it. I am teaching my child that it was n still might be a tradition amongst Hindu families in Punjab to bring up one child of the family as a Sikh, about the sacrifices of Gurus, about the martyrs of Jallianwalla Bagh and bhagat singh. Then I take that child to the very institution I'm highlighting, to be only exposed to hatred and vitriol in the name of history lesson. History is documented. This in itself means that it has suffered inflictions of bias, inaccuracies, opinions and emotions. So to answer my girl's question I approached that 8 year old lad, congratulated him for his eloquent delivery in Punjabi despite the accent, and asked him, in front of his parents, whether he knew the names of the sons Guruji sacrificed. He drew a blank. Then I asked my girl and she rattled Sahizades' names. So I looked the boy's father in the eye and said that this is what he needs to remember. And I told my girl that Sikhs don't hate us. And I told myself that it's not an institution that I'll never visit but it's a bare building propagating hatred that I'll never set my foot in. I am sure you would answer with so whats. To approach any opposing viewpoint with nonchalance & disdain and to dismiss it with 'I dont care' is disrespectful. I'm sure my so called friends feel exactly like you do. I hope and I'll even hazard that I know that they don't mean any individual disrespect towards me and my family. But your answers/comments and tone have definitely shed a light why they are or have become so.

I don't believe referring to you is hurtful, but you should be proud of whatever your identity is, (in this case Hindu), instead of feeling some shame of it; however, to say all Hindus are good people or all Sikhs are good people is neither healthy nor practical. But it does give some hope that there are people like you, who understand somewhat of the struggle. I don't know who teaches these people hate; but a pracharak should be honest, instead of saying what feels good. To imagine just all the chaos caused in 1984, seeing your brothers, sisters, children, and parents just be killed, and not any form of justice is impractical. Same in 1947, when your closest friends, the bonds you shared with them whether they were Hindu, Muslim, or Sikh, now permanently damaged due to the deaths of those precious to them. Also our education system of teaching people Sikhi has extremely diminished with the independence of India, when many Sikhs could have entire banis memorized at a young age, compared to now when many lost that precious knowledge, and our people are labeled as extremists for standing-up for our faith.

4 hours ago, Guest Saddened Hindu said:

Hello Jacfsing2 

Since then my comment has been published. I have conveniently addressed it to you n the other member by the name dominator. It's about my experience and the ensuing dilemma. Please do read and let me know your take on it. Do remember the topic heading I chose n my main concern. My only concern is the existense of hate amongst Sikhs for Hindus. As far as my friends are concerned, I'm sure they don't intend a targeted disrespect towards me. It's highly likely that you share jokes of similar nature but you still are here conducting youself in an honourable manner n even offering a private platform to ensure I feel uninhibited in expressing my views. My friend I have no malice whatsoever. But read my comment, respond and we'll continue this conversation as I would come up with lot of questions through this journey.

Read your newly posted content, and I'm not really a joking type, I'm a bit more flat-out on what I believe. That said, I wouldn't want friends like that whether they are Sikhs or Non-Sikhs.

[Guest Hindu]

Take your daughter to a Hindu temple, teach her to study the Geeta. I'm genuinely curious why you would even bother taking her to a Sikh temple ?

Would you go to a Muslim temple (mosque) ? No.

 

[ThunderousDominator]

I dont know why you guys are just asuming this guy is genuine. There have been plent of hindus whove come to this forum (and countless more in real life)speaking kind words but after just the tiniest bit of prodding they reveal there true colors and the poisen they have in there hearts. For all we know this guy could be jaspindjy using a different ip address but than again maybe im just being a litle paranoid.

[S1ngh]

7 minutes ago, ThunderousDominator said:

I dont know why you guys are just asuming this guy is genuine. There have been plent of hindus whove come to this forum (and countless more in real life)speaking kind words but after just the tiniest bit of prodding they reveal there true colors and the poisen they have in there hearts. For all we know this guy could be jaspindjy using a different ip address but than again maybe im just being a litle paranoid.

I understand your concern. However, we are different and we should refrain ourself from generalization. Not all fingers are equal. There are good and bad folks in every community. 

[Guest Jacfsing2]

16 minutes ago, S1ngh said:

I understand your concern. However, we are different and we should refrain ourself from generalization. Not all fingers are equal. There are good and bad folks in every community. 

That's a good reason, but why did you approve this?

28 minutes ago, Guest Hindu said:

Take your daughter to a Hindu temple, teach her to study the Geeta. I'm genuinely curious why you would even bother taking her to a Sikh temple ?

Would you go to a Muslim temple (mosque) ? No.

 

[ThunderousDominator]

1 hour ago, S1ngh said:

I understand your concern. However, we are different and we should refrain ourself from generalization. Not all fingers are equal. There are good and bad folks in every community. 

True.Fair enough

[Guest Saddened Hindu]

7 hours ago, Guest Hindu said:

Take your daughter to a Hindu temple, teach her to study the Geeta. I'm genuinely curious why you would even bother taking her to a Sikh temple ?

Would you go to a Muslim temple (mosque) ? No.

 

Well my Hindu brother. You must not have read Shreemadbhaagvat Gita to have such a parochial view of life and most likely in living it too. I'm not here to justify myself, my actions and my existence. But you won't understand.

[Siddhartha]

On 09/09/2017 at 1:16 PM, BhForce said:

1. First, welcome to Sikhsangat. Here's my humble approach to your question. Let me start off by apologizing for the Sikhs who made you feel bad. That's not a good thing to do:

ਸਭਨਾ ਮਨ ਮਾਣਿਕ ਠਾਹਣੁ ਮੂਲਿ ਮਚਾਂਗਵਾ ॥

Sabhanaa Man Maanik Thaahan Mool Machaangavaa ||

The minds of all are like precious jewels; to harm them is not good at all.

ਸਲੋਕ ਫਰੀਦ ਜੀ (ਭ. ਫਰੀਦ) (੧੩੦):੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੮੪ ਪੰ. ੧੮ 
Salok Baba Sheikh Farid p. 1384

ਜੇ ਤਉ ਪਿਰੀਆ ਦੀ ਸਿਕ ਹਿਆਉ ਨ ਠਾਹੇ ਕਹੀ ਦਾ ॥੧੩੦॥

Jae Tho Pireeaa Dhee Sik Hiaao N Thaahae Kehee Dhaa ||130||

If you desire your Beloved, then do not break anyone's heart. ||130||

ਸਲੋਕ ਫਰੀਦ ਜੀ (ਭ. ਫਰੀਦ) (੧੩੦):੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੩੮੪ ਪੰ. ੧੯ 
Salok Baba Sheikh Farid

2. OK, now since we've established that, I'd like to explore why some people might be ornery toward Hindus.

Imagine you're a person, a man, a human being. The leaders of a group of people, lets call them "Hindus", decide that you and your family and relatives are going to pick up their sh#t. Literally. (I don't swear, but I'm just using the word for illustration of the nastiness of the subject.) Or that you're going to be picking up the dead animals of the village, tanning them, and making leather goods of the hides. Nothing wrong with being a leatherworker, except when people call you names, cross the street when you pass, are literally afraid of your shadow (as in not wanting to be in your shadow because they think they'll get a disease from your shadow), don't allow you go into certain streets, throw you out of their religious places, and also don't allow you to choose a different profession if you want, don't allow you to read books of religion, and threaten to pour lead into your ears if you happen to hear religious verses. Do you comprehend the utter inhumanity of such a system, where people, with just a word, can cut your heart, and deny your essential worth? Do you think that at some point you would say, "F*** this sh#t; (literally)! And f*** all you all!"? I think that would be an entirely reasonable reaction. And yet you are surprised that people are making anti-Hindu jokes? 

Again, I'm not saying that people should make anti-Hindu jokes. I'm just saying it's quite understandable if people should do that. This would be similar to blacks in America making fun of white people, possibily with totally uncalled for jokes, like jokes on white men's masculinity, p*nis size, etc. The jokes are hurtful, but you do understand why they would want to denigrate a group that treated them like animals, right?

ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਹਮ ਕਤ ਸੂਦ ॥

Thum Kath Braahaman Ham Kath Soodh ||

How is it that you are a Brahmin, and I am of a low social status?

ਗਉੜੀ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) (੭) ੩:੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੨੪ ਪੰ. ੧੮ 
Raag Gauri Bhagat Kabir

ਹਮ ਕਤ ਲੋਹੂ ਤੁਮ ਕਤ ਦੂਧ ॥੩॥

Ham Kath Lohoo Thum Kath Dhoodhh ||3||

How is it that I am formed of blood, and you are made of milk? ||3||

ਗਉੜੀ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) (੭) ੩:੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੩੨੪ ਪੰ. ੧੮ 
Raag Gauri Bhagat Kabir, p324

 

3. Let's take another aspect of this: You have people who are not themselves cr*p-lifters or tanners. They're just appalled by the sheer inhumanity of the "Hindu" system. (I put "Hindu" in quotes because I don't want to get sidetracked on the definition of Hindu.) For them, the scavengers and leatherworkers are not pariahs, the real pariahs are those who have made the scavengers and leatherworkers into pariahs. This would be similar to non-blacks in America considering the KKK (who believe blacks to be sub-human) to be pariahs and making fun of them. Everybody in America makes fun of or condemns the KKK, from comedian Stephen Colbert to the President of the United States, Donald Trump (both white men, one on the Left, the other on the Right). Do you think the KKK (people who denigrate the likes of you, a non-white) should be denigrated? Have you ever complained that the KKK is being denigrated?

4. Another aspect: Let's say you're a Sikh living in, say, Delhi. You're embarrassed by your Punjab-residing cousins, whom the media portrays as rabble-rousers or even terrorist. You don't want to look like a terrorist, so you don't have an untied beard. You tie your beard up neatly, you wear a starched, "smart" turban with pins, not a "terrorist turban". You don't wear Punjabi clothes, you wear a shirt and slacks or jeans and a t-shirt, nice shoes. You don't speak Punjabi unless at home, you speak English or Hindi. You don't even take Punjab's side in stuff like river-water allocation, or whatever. And yet ... when you walk down the street or in your college, you're welcomed with "Baran vajj gaye, Sardar ji?" ("Has the clock struck 12?"). And also, in social situations, you're forced to listen to "sardarji jokes", and also to laugh along to show you're a good sport (i.e., a good little trained monkey self-hating Sikh). 

Do you think that, at some point, some Sikh, somewhere, might get the bright idea, "Hey, there are all these Sardarji jokes. Why don't we make some Panditji jokes?" Again, I'm not supporting hateful jokes (see point #1 above). But do you understand why someone might want to turn the tables?

5. As for the religious aspects, I would like to start by asking you, do you consider Guru Nanak ji to be a Hindu? I know that many (most?) Hindus do.

Also, do you consider Sikhs Hindus? Many (most?) Hindus do. That's not surprising, because the Constitution of India says Sikhs are Hindus. 

Now, given the Sikhs are, legally, Hindus, and Hindus consider Sikhs Hindus, if a bunch of Sikhs crack some jokes on Hindus, is there a problem? Basically, it's just Hindus cracking jokes on Hindus. Shouldn't be a problem, right?

As for criticizing Hindus, I and almost every other member of this site criticize, make fun of, and decry Sikhs all the time on this site. Given that, and also if Sikhs are Hindus, they are just Hindus criticizing Hindus. Again, not a problem, right?

Please consider my points seriously. And also please answer all the questions above in response, they are not just rhetorical. Bhul chuk muaf.
 

Hello BhForce 

My friend, I'll attempt to assign words to my thoughts in the best possible way that I know of though might not be able to answer to all your points/questions in one sitting. 

Beautiful shlok that rings so true with what I stand for hence rendering every other point of yours in condradiction with the  message in that shlok. You have taken undue advantage by apologising for someone else's actions thus putting me on a backfoot. Such is the nature of this gesture. I thank you for it. 

You will have no argument from my side in relation to the exploitation and sheer inhumanity perpetrated by priests and Brahmin class amongst Hindus. I am a Brahmin by birth and absolutely abhor the past n present conduct/rituals that would dehumanise. I won't go into my faith n beliefs. That's for some other day. The social structure of that society was lateral with equality which was exploited by people with power and so called knowledge and was turned into a caste system. That was an act of men in the name of a religion. I'm sure you would be aware that some Sikhs consider themselves superior than other Sikhs and won't marry their daugthers into some family names that they consider inferior. I'm sure you would be aware of terminology widely used in Punjab in denigrating tones for field workers from UP/Bihar/Bengal/Pahadi and their treatment. I am aware that ancient caste system still prevails in sections of Hindu society. My point is that that dehumanising that you mentioned still happens. Within your n my community. Do you support it? No you don't. 

My comment of Sikhs making Hindu jokes have been given too much significance where I felt the hurt behind the need for such jokes. But since you made point pertaining to that comment that no wonder such denigrating jokes are being made, so I'll assume that you include Sikhs amongst the group that were dehumanised alongwith Shudras. But I dont see Hindu "lower caste/shudras/BC's making Hindu jokes despite of the atrocities. So its definitely only Sikhs making Hindu jokes. Now comes the topic of content of these jokes. I have cracked many a Santa Banta jokes in life and never have I come across a content of the joke that potrays anything but foolishness/dumbness/stupidity. Meaning that if Santa/Banta of that joke were replaced with Ram/Shyam or Nasir/Beg, Irish/Yank/Jap/Pommy the joke would still potray the same meaning with no hint of religious/communal undertone. I understand that some Sikhs play along by their own choice or they feel they don't have a choice but bear/laugh or some retaliate and express their displeasure. That's a personal choice. Where I choose to laugh on a pandit joke, brahmin joke, indian joke, currymuncher joke, jew joke, irish/scottish joke, jap/chinese/go.k joke etc., I am acutely aware of the setting the joke is made in, the content of the joke, the intention of the joke and most importantly the sensitivity of the audience. And I vehemently check anyone cracking any hurtful joke.

Then you have drawn a parallel with the white/black situation and the related jokes. About KKK and no issues in denigrating them. And in another point a joke about "sardarji barah vaj gaye?".

I completely understand your logic behind these points. I completely understand that some Sikhs might feel offended by Santa/Banta jokes just like some Hindus with pandit jokes. And I implicitly understand that some Sikh might feel the right to making such jokes due to the oppression they felt and/or feel. I completely understand that what you might think as funny I might consider offensive and vice versa.

But are the likes of Colbert/trump denigrating white people or KKK? Do you think everyone paints white people and KKK with the same brush? Are white people represented by KKK? Are the black priests/preachers deriding/condemning white people or KKK?

Have you ever come across a Sardarji joke that is about Sikhism, teachings, any gurujis, Sikh women, Sikh sexual prowess, Sikh valour/cowardice etc.? I have never. Never would I ever be a part of such demeaning act.

Again, I understand your logic of denigrating while/after being oppressed. But Sir, this is today. We don't need this hatred now. Are Sikhs still feeling oppressed in USA, Uk, Canada n in other countries? Why do we have to teach our kids that Hindus did this and Hindus did that, even while living overseas? One of the brothers in this forum has asked me to spare him my BS etc. Why such hate? Where is the need of such hate? To support a cause? Does the faith need the crutches of insults? Sir, you are forever vigilant as to what your child might read/watch/hear on the internet, in a mall, on the tv. But we apply no filter in preaching hatred. I have heard arguments that our children need to know the history. And my answer to that is with the same analogy of what you allow your child to be exposed to on the media. A child will learn history, will learn of your viewpoint/stand and will learn of the hurt it has caused to his/her community. But when he learns that, how he learns that dictate whether he develops hate along with that lesson. Unless the motive of that lesson is to teach hate too. Then I'm fighting a lost battle. A brother here said that I might show my true colours after a bit of prodding. Isn't it sad that he feels the need to prod? I have searched for a forum to discuss how I'm feeling about our children and their future. And he could only see a snake behind kind words. 

I don't consider Guru Nanak Dev Ji as hindu. I don't consider Sikhs as Hindus. I don't consider Buddhist as Hindus. And even if I do or anyone does, does that falter your faith? And then because you deride other sikhs you can do the same for Hindus? And if I take a stand, as many (most?) Hindu, that Sikhs are Hindus, then does it give me a right to deride Sikhs? No one in their right minds would call a wrong right. No one human would call 84 riots anything but a heartbreaking and abhorrent tragedy. Sir, I filter violent/sexual/age-inappropriate content for my kids, same as you do/will do or would have done. But when I was sitting in the gurudwara and on both sides of Guru Granth Sahibji the images/videos of Sikhs been beaten and burning bodies were being played as a backdrop to an 8 year old's speech that Hindus did it, I couldn't filter it for my 6 year old. My children would learn about this tragedy themselves. And children when reading about 84 riots will also come across numerous articles about Hindus being segregated and killed during terrorism, whether you and I believe it to be true or not. But what I'll ensure is that they have the mental acuity to understand the nature of a man before they are exposed to such sufferings . And then when they'll approach me to ask whether it's true or not, I'll answer that it hurt deep. Hurt millions. Inflicted millions. Wounded milions. Such is what a man is capable of. Not Hindu or a Sikh but a man. And that the lesson is to not hurt and when you know someone is hurt, you be that extra compassionate.

Same as you. Koi bhi anjane mein hui galti ke liye maafi maangta hun.