A question from a Muslim - ragmala

[Guest Lionking]

Hi

I work in a bank and there is this pretty Sikh apni I rather fancied - she's always hanging around this Muslim guy at work which pees me off - so trying to embarrass him one day when the three of us were on lunch together- I said to the girl the guru Granth is the most authentic book as we still have it written in the gurus handwriting- she said I'm sure the Quran is well preserved aswell. I laughed and said they wrote it 200 years later -after their prophet-  the Muslim guy then said it was written down a few years after their Prophet and it was persevered by memorisation by hundreds of followers  during his life - 

then he said is the the SGGS part of God - I said yes - he then said is the ragmala part of the SGGS - I said yes - he said  some Sikhs say it isn't - the girl agreed with him - I said yeah but most do say it's part of it - he said but no one is 100 % sure - I said "so what" - he said well if SGGS is a part of God and ragmala is not read - that's like having a person and taking his leg off - deforming him - and if the ragmala is not part of SGGS and it isn't read then that's like giving a complete person an extra limb or body part - like a third nipple .also deforming him . I was peed of at what he said but more so as the girl was laughing with him - considering she was a Sikh!

i said yeah but even if people don't read it then respect it - to which he laughed and said that sound stupid and a silly compromise - he then said maybe you should confirm your own scripture before questioning others - the girl agreed with him 

although I'm still angry at our own sikhni for siding with the Muslim I can't get his point of my head - wonder if more knowledge people can answer the issue of the ragmala .... thanks 

[Kira]

That's a bit rich coming from him. Muhamaad didn't even compile the Quran himself, his uncle did. What's to say he didn't alter it?

[Guest]

Fateh Ji!
The argument between raagmala is separated between jathebandian and people's personal opinions. 

Not everyone agrees with raagmala, fair enough. It's still a part of the Guru Granth Sahib, and no one has the right to remove it in any way otherwise the Guru is not in full form. If you don't agree with it, simple, don't read it but pay respect to it.

Now I'd stay away from arguments such as the Quran vs. SGGS. It will cause a significant issue between the Islamic and Sikh community. Next time explain the significance and maybe some Sakhis to intrigue the Muslim. It seems the 'Singhni' won't say anything if the Muslim agrees to it that's for sure. 

Is the Sikh living the attire of a Gursikh? Is he amritdhari, etc.?

If she is, then you should talk to her and tell her it is not right to agree with people who don't have much knowledge on the SGGS themselves because what happens if he says something like "The SGGS is just a book!" and the Sikh agrees. What influence would that do to her?

Bhul Chuk Maaf if I said anything wrong, please forgive me as I don't have much knowledge myself.

Fateh Ji!

[MrDoaba]

 

[Guest]

same way many Muslims don't believe Mohammed as the last prophet and many others believe him as representative of God. Sufis don't consider Music as haram while many Muslims drink alcohol and lie.

No one is 100% sure when the Koran was written, who wrote it and whether it is authentic or not. 

Raagmala IS part of Guru Granth sahib and therefore is authentic too. It is present in the  many old  copies of Guru Granth sahib. However, it is  not necessary to be read. Officially, Guru Granth sahib ends at Mundavani.

[Guest Lionking]

@monatosingh

you said " ragmala is defiantly part of SGGS" and " if you don't believe in it, it's personal choice "?

how can that be - if it's definitely part of the SGGS then you would HAVE to believe in it ? Surely ?

You can't say oh " I don't personally believe in the mool mantra therefore I'll give that a miss" 

if you say the SGGS is not a normal book but divine itself - and then say well part of it you don't need to believe in - that's cause huge issues.  Not least why wasn't this preserved by the gurus / historians ? Why is there an issues with Ragmala anyway - what's the reason it's not read by some ?

as for the girl - she's not religious - standard apni that does the odd trip to gudwara in a blue moon. More cultural than religious - but a good person to be fair. She is nice and polite to everyone. 

@Kira I tried to embarrass the guy by making points I thought were correct - and I slapped in the face - I've been asking other Muslims about how the Quran was preserved - my Muslim mate from school who later became quite devout told me during the life the prophet all of his companions memorised the Quran by heart - most memorised parts of it but quite a few memorised all of it - they get the title " hafiz" when they do . My friend is a hafiz also.

after their prophet Abu bakr was the Caleph - in a battle that took place quite a few Hafiz's were killed so he had it written down. The 3rd caleph uthman who was the son in law of the prophet and a hafiz himself had another copy made and had 70 companions who were hafiz check it and make sure there were no mistakes - this compilation was lead by Zayd who had read the Quran numerous times by heart to the prophet during his life in full - this was done about 10 years after their prophet not 200 like I had been told - also they have this Quran in turkey in a museum 

thats pretty impressive - I also found out with all of Islams sub groups Sunni shai <Edited> - they all have the same Quran  - no comtraveries about it. they all agree it was well preserved - 

then I think of ragmala and I'm confused -  thank God that guy didn't know about dassam Granth

we should know more about other people's faith - Muslim - Christians. Jews - Hindus - rather than make up stuff and look like morons when corrected ...

[Kira]

20 minutes ago, Guest Lionking said:

@monatosingh

you said " ragmala is defiantly part of SGGS" and " if you don't believe in it, it's personal choice "?

how can that be - if it's definitely part of the SGGS then you would HAVE to believe in it ? Surely ?

You can't say oh " I don't personally believe in the mool mantra therefore I'll give that a miss" 

if you say the SGGS is not a normal book but divine itself - and then say well part of it you don't need to believe in - that's cause huge issues.  Not least why wasn't this preserved by the gurus / historians ? Why is there an issues with Ragmala anyway - what's the reason it's not read by some ?

as for the girl - she's not religious - standard apni that does the odd trip to gudwara in a blue moon. More cultural than religious - but a good person to be fair. She is nice and polite to everyone. 

@Kira I tried to embarrass the guy by making points I thought were correct - and I slapped in the face - I've been asking other Muslims about how the Quran was preserved - my Muslim mate from school who later became quite devout told me during the life the prophet all of his companions memorised the Quran by heart - most memorised parts of it but quite a few memorised all of it - they get the title " hafiz" when they do . My friend is a hafiz also.

after their prophet Abu bakr was the Caleph - in a battle that took place quite a few Hafiz's were killed so he had it written down. The 3rd caleph uthman who was the son in law of the prophet and a hafiz himself had another copy made and had 70 companions who were hafiz check it and make sure there were no mistakes - this compilation was lead by Zayd who had read the Quran numerous times by heart to the prophet during his life in full - this was done about 10 years after their prophet not 200 like I had been told - also they have this Quran in turkey in a museum 

thats pretty impressive - I also found out with all of Islams sub groups Sunni shai <Edited> - they all have the same Quran  - no comtraveries about it. they all agree it was well preserved - 

then I think of ragmala and I'm confused -  thank God that guy didn't know about dassam Granth

we should know more about other people's faith - Muslim - Christians. Jews - Hindus - rather than make up stuff and look like morons when corrected ...

That still doesn't make anything impressive, it raises more questions about authenticity. Firstly the fact that it was written from memory by a secondary source makes it extremely dubious (any Historian can clarify that). What if something was missed? a significant grammatical pronunciation? a line? and so on, the chain of authenticity was broken the minute Muhammad died. That makes the Quran a secondary source and the alleged works of Muhammad.

Sikhs have the entire scriptures handwritten and verified by Guru Sahib, the Quran was written years after Muhammad's demise. Muslims in general get really high and mighty over the Quran, yet these facts from any historian completely destroys their narratives, there's even been accusations against Muhammad (or the people who compiled it) of stealing portions of it from other people. Guru Sahib included bani from Bhagats and left in the Bhagats signatures. 

[Guest Kaur 2]

VJKK VJKF

10 minutes ago, Kira said:

Sikhs have the entire scriptures handwritten and verified by Guru Sahib, the Quran was written years after Muhammad's demise

That is very true. Why do you think at the end of Sukhmani Sahib, Asa di Vaar etc it says "Shuddh"? Because when the Guru was checking it He stamped it to say that it had been verified. The Quran had been written about 40 years after Muhammad's demise. It could of gone through generations like a game of Chinese whispers and got changed easily. That's why technically Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaaj is more reliable. Because everything was written and compiled by the Guru's themselves. As for raagmala it is a part of Maharaaj and some silly people started this argument.

Sorry if I offended anyone.

Bhull Chuk Maaf.

VJKK VJKF 

[Guest Kaur 2]

VJKK VJKF

That Sikh girl should of stood up for her religion very ashamed of her.

VJKK VJKF

[Guest LS93 Lakhvir Singh]

The best advice anyone can give you is to be steadfast in Naam simran, Kirtan, Katha and Gurbani with Pooran Dhyaan. You could of been more smart and polite by saying the Quran is man made as muhammad followers were relied on to write and comply everything. It doesnt matter how memorised a person is they can still make mistakes in forgetting or grammar mistakes. Muslims believe muhammad is the greatest man to have ever lived if so why didnt he seal and sign the quran and write his own autobiography. Guru Gobind Singh Ji did.  

You need to have more humility and respect dont get so frustrated you will be easily pushed over by words. 

Dasam Bani savaiye tells everyone the khalsa and Sikhi rejects to agree with all other scriptures and their ways which they preach. Chitropakhyan is the only issue people have which isnt really a issue if one has the mindset to actually read the context of panj chor (5 thieves) and why it is being said. This bani is for both females and males. Guru Granth Sahib Ji tell us women and men have different characteristics of each other so how can Bani discriminate. 

Also you research into Islam, the earlier qurans were burned and there is alot of controversy to different qurans. 

You should learn the arths of Ragmala and it is Gurbani and in every saroop. A few people doesnt make a majority.