Starting University...

[AK-47]

How does the fact that guru ji gave amrit to people who previouslt distilled alcohol etc mean that he didnt have a problem with what they did?! thats nonsense! The fact that they take amrit is a step away from that previous life! what is the point in taking amrit and then continuing in the same way as you were previously?

No i do not attend weddings where alcohol is served! or at least i try my utmost hardest not to, it is not a place where i want to be! Guru ji tells us time and time again to avoid the sangat which will lead us away from the guru and to join with the sangat that joins us to the guru. Why should i care what the clergy in england think? Many of their traditions are different to mine, i dont adopt them! just as they do not adopt mine!

yes i condemn the drinking of alcohol etc as my guru has condemned it! i do not go and tell them that they are wrong, i just dont go! i have no need to become a sikh version of a 'bible basher' and rant and scream at people. if they wish to do that, fine, but wrong is wrong, and guru has clearly pointed that out. there is no argument in this.

Yes the world is an illusion, i will not bother getting into this debate, perhaps you can start a new thread, or try reading some more gurbani, not saying that you dont but try reading up on this topic and find out what guru sahib ji says about this world and the pursuits of man within it.

Your comments regarding sakhi, i cannot tell you who wrote them, i would assume contempries of the guru's. but seeing as you refuse to accept these sakhis i need to ask therefore do you doubt EVERY sakhi? and do you doubt EVERYTHING that is not in guru granth sahib ji?

A kotha is not neccesarily a prostitutes house, it was 'entertainment' of the then age. where gentry attended for socialising and entertainment, dancing, drinking and yes prostitution or casual sex may also feature in this. Just as a club involves, similar activities.

If you feel you need jazz music or the need to sit in a comedy bar, then so be it. I am not perfect by any means and one would say that a first step is to realise ones own shortcomings. But as someone who perhaps tries to follow the gursikh path, i fail to know of a single gursikh who either attended such places or their equivalent, or felt that they needed to. the pic in your id i believe is of sant jarnail singh ji? i may be wrong in which case this comment may not apply. But sant ji even advised the singhs not to visit cinemas etc as they had no gurmat in them, so you draw whatever conclusions you wish to from that.

im glad you choose to go these places as oppossed to being forced to go. but again i repeat i choose to follow the path of guru sahib and stay away as much as i can.

Nope your right going to listen to music does not mean that you neccesarily have a kaam problem, but does a gursikh need music other than gurbani, keertan dhadhi varran etc? Again on a purely music based question, a gursikh will travel to hear the priases of vaheguru and not those of a chap singing about how much he loves his girlfriend etc.

You find the prostitutes example so absurd, yet in clubs where cages hang from the ceiling with semi clad women thrashing about in them is hardly short of the mark! Fine define what a comedy club or a modern bar was during the gurus times, and tell me if any sikhs were ever sent there in order to test their sikhi? to show that could resist and where true sikhs? Nope you wont find them! A gursikh will seek to be endrenched in the love of naam and vaheguru's ustat, any place which does not do this is somewhere that a true gursikh will avoid where possible.

I think the problem here is that you are arguing to defend your own actions, as oppossed to discussing the actions of a real gurmukh. Since we aim to become gurmukh it is not our actions that are important but those that we need to aim towards.

Perhaps brother you should also re-read what i wrote. i never said battle was NOT HARD, i said that singing the priases of vaheguru was the HARDEST. as such entering battle is easier than living a life according to gurmukh principles. of course the battles in history were hard, shaheedi is difficult, but to become an ideal shaheed first you need to kill your haumeh (your ego) do some research on that line i gave you, sorry i should have said it is guru arjan de jis shabad i believe and it means that 'he who is coloured by gods name in this time he alone is called a soora (a brave warrior). read tuweh prasad swayeh the 3rd bani in the morning and you will find guru ji sings about how countless brave warriors who can readily take blows of steel to their faces are but nothing without the name of vahgeuru!

even today you will find thousands of people in the national army, ready to fight nd die. and yet how many people will you find who have controlled the five thieves? how many true bhagats of vaheguru will you find? This alone tells you which path is easier!

i will deny myself the 'good food and music' as i believe guru ji would not want me in such a place. it is enough for me that people will stop me in the street and enquire about my faith. if it is in their karam they will find out. i will not go against my principles to do it!

you have not directly compared yourself to the gur, yet by using his example of entering such places you seek to justify your own actions. what the guru did or does is his business, all we do is follow his hukum! we follow gurbani and the gurus hukums and teachings because we want to fall in love with vaheguru! it is the gurus hukum that we follow, guru ji stopped a boulder with one hand, will we ever attempt to copy that? of course not. guru ji beheaded 5 singhs, we will not do that, but guru ji told us to live lives in certain ways according to certain principles, to singh gods praises it it this which we must focus on and do.

im afraid brother you need to do a little more research, a gurmukh will realise the true concept of 'hukum' as manmukhs we are unable to appreciate what it truely means. Everything only happens according to gods will. we do not carry it out. at this stage of our spiritual path it seems that 'we' act, but hopefully one day we will realise that there is no 'we' or 'I' there is only vaheguru.

yes of course 'we' should do things, but we also need to realise what is right from wrong, we need to understand our own failings and limitations. carrying out guru jis hukum does not mean you need to go to a bar to do it! sant jarnail singh ji bought thousands and thousands of youth who drank, did drugs etc into sikhi, yet he never entered any clubs! nor to my knowledge has any other gurmukh who has changed the lives of thousands!

you say you dont moralise over people decision to go, yet you very swiftly decided that the author of this article was trying to withdraw from the world, because he made a choice not to go!

im afraid i dont have a high horse, i myself live in dirt, again i urge you to read more gurbani and see what things guru ji calls dirt! what type of dirt do we eat, speak, wear live in etc! i would say MOST OF US in this world are living in dirt, only those who have joined themselves with the name of vaheguru and live his gurmukh jeevan are out of this gandh. the rest of us are entagled in this maya which is dirt!

again you seem to oppose the logic of a pub clubs and 'other' types of clubs! fact is most of the lads i know will have no issue in goin to strip club on a night out of clubbing! for your average joe blogs it is jus a different type of club!

they are i believe simply different steps of the same ladder if you will.

if you want to go to a decent club, join sadhsangat and make a club there, let the music be the keertan, let your mind dance and rejoice in the praises of vaheguru, let amrit be your drink and his name fulfill your hunger for good food.

Again i repeat you brother do as you will. for those of us trying to follow the path of the gurmukh. places like this are generally not for us. but ultimately it is for the individual to decide on just what place is acceptable and what is not. some will not go to restaurants, others wont go cinemas etc, which is their choice. but i believe clubs (which is what manvir singh wrote his article about) is a definate no no.

beyond that, it is your choice.

[navdeep kaur]

i wud feel uncomfortable too........i mean wht type of image do we wanna give sikhs in general? the ones that go clubbing and to pubs???...

sorry but id rather be in good sangat talking about sikhi

[SSM]

Veer Randip

you may find a strip club as a STUPID example, I don't. You think we should go out there and meet people and not feel uncomfortable, I don't understand: What if his mates were going to a strip club then what? A strip club is wrong for the obvious reason and a pub is wrong for the obvious reason that there is only smoking and drinking so if Guru Ji are against both types of clubs then why does it make it right for him to go to one and not the other?

just like he doesnt have to drink in a pub he doesnt have to look at anyone in the strip hunna? In both he can simply go to 'socialise' but for some reason u get a bit stressed when I mention the other club.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru Ji ki fateh

[randip singh]

My final comment on this.

Comparing Jazz Club, or Comedy Clubs to Strip Clubs is ludicrous.

No wonder most of the Sikh youth I deal with do not want anything to do with Gurudwaras or Sikhi!

:doh:

PS AK47 - If its a historical debate you want on Sikh scriptures and validity then thats fine. HOWEVER, do not make remarks as to whether I believe in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ju. I might not believe in the "super ultra right wing" vesion of Sikhism, but that doesnt make me less of a Sikh.

PPS I read Bani, thank you very much, and I don't hold to your view about the world being an illusion and withdrawing from it or hiding from it.

Thanks

[amarjeet_singh_1699]

randip , you call urself a sikh!

yet u eat meat, go to pubs, and like listenin 2 music!

just take a moment to think of all the gursikhs in the past, and name me 1, hu wud do thekinda stuff ur doin?

bhai jeevan singh

bhai sahib randhir singh

baba jarnail singh

and countless other gursikhs.................

lol not one of them wud do the stuff u do, people like u giv a bad name 2 sikhi !

[GuruManeyoGranth]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Amarjeet Singh - I don't think you should be so judgemental of other people. You may not agree with some of the things that Randip Singh does, but a Sikh's relationship is between himself and his Guru. You have probably not even met Randip Singh, do not know his personality or how much Bhagti he does, yet you are mocking him.

He does not have to account to you. If you don't like what he does, then explain why meat eating, going to the pub or listening to music are wrong. Don't attack him personally for disagreeing with your views.

This does not mean I endorse going to the Pub, eating meat or listening to music, but one should have the courtesy to respect the opinion of others.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguroo

[sher_panjabi]

Below is some links to some things i have written whilst being at uni this year. Its bit like a diary and some of my thoughts:

Back To Uni

Pressures To Fit into Society

[randip singh]

randip , you call urself a sikh!

yet u eat meat, go to pubs, and like listenin 2 music!

just take a moment to think of all the gursikhs in the past, and name me 1, hu wud do thekinda stuff ur doin?

bhai jeevan singh

bhai sahib randhir singh

baba jarnail singh

and countless other gursikhs.................

lol not one of them wud do the stuff u do, people like u giv a bad name 2 sikhi ! :doh:

123124[/snapback]

Amarjeet Space 1999 ...... kind of answer id expect from you You are too funny!

You could get a job at Jongleurs!

[randip singh]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Amarjeet Singh - I don't think you should be so judgemental of other people. You may not agree with some of the things that Randip Singh does, but a Sikh's relationship is between himself and his Guru. You have probably not even met Randip Singh, do not know his personality or how much Bhagti he does, yet you are mocking him.

He does not have to account to you. If you don't like what he does, then explain why meat eating, going to the pub or listening to music are wrong. Don't attack him personally for disagreeing with your views.

This does not mean I endorse going to the Pub, eating meat or listening to music, but one should have the courtesy to respect the opinion of others.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Waheguroo

123126[/snapback]

Don't worry.....I don't take him seriously. He's funny!

[AK-47]

as i said perhaps a strip club is a number of steps further down that path which starts with your local pub and the clubs on broad street.

Quite strange as most of the sikh youth i deal with appreciate that there are some things and places where gursikhs should not do and be at. Clubs and pubs in particular. They appreciate that this path is different and unique, it has to be otherwise why not just carry on the one that they are already travelling?

I never to my knowledge questioned your faith in guru sahib, simply encouraged you to read more gurbani and do more research into what guru sahib ji says.

As regards sikh scriptures and validity etc, i simply raise the point that you objected to the sakhis as they were not in guru sahib, the question i then asked is in what then do you belive is a correct resource for sikh history? yes some sakhis are 'dodgy' and make little sense, but if gurmat applies to the sakhi then i see no problem!

If anything brother all i have said is that i fall short of what i belive a gurmat jeevan to be. your path is your own the only reason i objected to your views is that i would encourgae sikh youth to NOT attend these places as they will NOT benefit their sikhi in any way. if anything they will cause hinderance.

Go to sikhitothemax and search for the words 'illusion world' and read the results. yes this is a VERY basic study of the concept but it is a starting point.

Example Guru Tegh bahadur ji says;

One Universal Creator God. Truth Is The Name. Creative Being Personified. No Fear. No Hatred. Image Of The Undying. Beyond Birth. Self-Existent. By Guru's Grace:

Raag Jaijaavantee, Ninth Mehl:

Meditate in remembrance on the Lord - meditate on the Lord; this alone shall be of use to you.

Abandon your association with Maya, and take shelter in the Sanctuary of God.

Remember that the pleasures of the world are false; this whole show is just an illusion. ||1||Pause||

You must understand that this wealth is just a dream. Why are you so proud?

The empires of the earth are like walls of sand. ||1||

Servant Nanak speaks the Truth: your body shall perish and pass away.

Moment by moment, yesterday passed. Today is passing as well. ||2||1||

as i said, the guru again and again describes the world as an illusion or a false dream.

I have never said we should witdraw or hide from it, but we should REALISE that it is false! and we need to hold to the truth within it! let the drama play, we are here to do our bagti, so lets get on with it! serious brother resaecrh this issue, it will help you! good luck!