Starting University...

[randip singh]

Your last comment is totally unfair Randip, as I already said and now repeat in case you missed it, I said strip clubs when I was talking abt clubs in general- u were talking abt completely different 'clubs' and 'pubs' where its pretty respectable lol and I have to add- you and me are a completely different age so ur club and my club are worlds apart. lol. so if u talking abt harvester and i say strip club then it sounds ridiculous, If u wanna talk abt the clubs that my uni mates go to then saying strip club isnt so crazy

Get over the comment i made, I dont like saying ur old and u keep making me say it

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

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It was a genuine mistake and I understand, and therefore the comment is not directed at you brother. :doh:

[randip singh]

Randip brother, seems ilike you dont like reading my responses or even replying to them.

You really need to relax nobody is condemning you to hell because you eat at pubs etc. Just saying that your sikhi will not progress in such places and is more likely to decrease if this becomes your sangat.

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How do you know I won't progress? What makes you think by discarding the outside world I will progress?

It is wordly attachment we seek to control, not renounciation of the world.

In responses to your questions regarding friends eating in and playing at a club/pub then yes i would no problem is saying i dont eat/go to such places but i wish you all the best. Nothing hard in that is there? 

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If my kids play at a wacky warehouse and I have something to eat there, how is that bad? Thats a pub afterall?

All of ones actions must be based on his understading of his or her morals. In our case our morals need to be defined by gurmat and not society. I urge you again as it is evident that you have not done so, please go and read what gurbani says regarding this world and the truth and lies within it. To make it even easier for you just read the gurbani of Guru Tegh Bahadar Sahib Ji.

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Gurmat is designed to make us full contributors to society and not abstainers from society. I have read Gurbani thank you. Again, I bring you back to the point, Sikhi seeks to curb the attachment to wordly pleasures but not to shield us from the world.

Why are you so hung up on one being detached from 'society'? Guru ji tells us constantly to seek the society of the saints and to leave that of other. Is that detaching from the world?

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If we are detached from society we in effect become Udasis. That is un-Sikh. Thats why I am hung up on it.

And for the quote given, yes the world is poison it is decitful and false and the gurmukh must shine through it. But where in that does it say that we should go to places where the poison is in greater concentration?

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What makes you think that their will be greater concerntration of this where a band is playing some great tunes with great lyrics, or where a stand up comedian is making thought provoking jokes?

The poison is already with our hearts my friend, and the world appears to you/me according to how much that poison is in our hearts, irrespective of where you/me go.

Fact of the matter is which you are refusing to comment on that gurmukhs do not and would not recommend going to such places. Simple. They and guru ji say go find sadhsangat. You are not going to find sadhsangat in a pub. Period. 

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Please define a "Gurmukh"? What makes someone more "Gurmukh" than another? Some one who has a turban and beard? In that case Badal and Tohra would win, hands down.

Or maybe someone who is able to control the five vices?

Randip i know it is hard for you as this seems to be your chosen lifestyle which is your choice. But please try not to influence others with your own justifications which have no standing in gurmat. i say this not to offend you but in the politest way possible. I really recommend you study more, age does not always make one correct, and in this case you are not. 

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Nothing chosen or not. It is the lifestyle of a Sikh.

I could say the same thing to you, "stop trying to influence others with your own justifications", because I certainly do not agree with being detached from the world.

I think you need to study more. Read more Sikh History, and take a detailed analysis of Bani. Also have a look at the Dasam Granth in depth.

Note, I am not offended, I simply don't agree with you.

Ps could you send me that drawing of Sant Jarnail Singh Ji that you have as your picture, it is a very good drawing. Many thanks

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Its not Sant ji, but a portrait of an ordinary Sikh. :doh:

[AK-47]

Where i say a sikh should not take part in certain activities or visit certain places is not renounciation, it is control. When maharajh told his sikhs to abstain from eating and taking certain substances that was not renounciation but control. we seek to do that which betters us not which may have a negative effect upon us.

Udasis and jogis etc renounce the world and sit in caves etc. But sikhs as you rightly say do not. But then that does not mean that we become what society defines us as. Society is a fickle thing, it evolves with trends and fashions. This is not the society we need. The society we require is that of sadhsangat, the society of saints. Longing for the society of saints and not desiring the other is not rejecting the world nor is it renounciation. it is choosing that which will help you find vaheguru over that which will most likely not. and yes attachement is a big part of wht we must let go.

Yes we live in this world and yes we live within 'society' but we do not need to let this society dictate how we live our lives by ITS morals is what this whole article was about. Our society needs to be of the guru and his gurmukhs, not of the other.

You seem to only be able to see society as an all inclusive mass object which involves one and all. This is not the case. Society can be broken down and split into smal groups up to nations etc. Rejecting or not wanting to be neccesarily part of or follow the charecteristics of a group is not rejection of the world, it is the wish to follow ones own path and not follow the rest as a dear does.

Posion is greater in places where there is drink, smoke etc. The environment you are in, the discussions taking place etc all effect us. Everything is poison otherthan the place where naam is taking place and gurmat is discussed. Of course it is hard for us to be in such places all the time, but we should at least try and be in such company as much as possible.

A gurmukh is not a turbaned man and you know that. if it was then going by the number of turbaned men ones sees walking into pubs etc we should all be going there. No, a gurmukh is one as defined by guru sahib, a sikh as described by guru ji in gurbani. I trust you know the shabad to which i refer. If it is ever in your destiny to meet such souls then do ask them these questions.

just to add, controling the vices is itself not an indication of gurmukh, he or she needs more than control but that is another discussion.

Ok just that the pic looks remarkably like sant jarnail singh ji so i just wondered given your opposition to this 'talibanistoc' outlook on the world.

Just to repeat the point i have made several times, sikhi does not remounce the world, it smily realises it for what it really is, false and a dream! we need to concentrate on vaheguru and sikhi and not worry about whether we fit into the worlds vision and what the world thinks or does! 80 or 90 years is too short a time to worry about these things! alas i wish i could myslef realise the dream and focus on the reality i.e ikongkar vaheguru!!

As i said it does not appear that we will agree on this topic and with reference to your comment regarding sikh history i will finish by saying that this is where we in fact started.Within myself mentioning certain stories from history and you questioning their reliability. Ultimately we al follow our predestined paths and will do as gurus hukum dictates.

[randip singh]

Where i say a sikh should not take part in certain activities or visit certain places is not renounciation, it is control. When maharajh told his sikhs to abstain from eating and taking certain substances that was not renounciation but control. we seek to do that which betters us not which may have a negative effect upon us.

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Who says anyone is eating or drinking these substances?

I do not drink, yet I happily have business lunches with colleagues at a Wine Bar. The control comes from not wanting to drink from within. If a person is feeble and weak willed and not giving himself to Guru’s will, then I can understand why they would want to avoid such places, that would tempt them. I have no such problem’s thanks to Waheguru!

Having deep meaningful intellectual conversation in a social gathering at a meal in a Harvester or Wine Bar, has had no negative effect on me or my peers. They are all good Sikh’s. Dare I say it, some of them have the occasional glass of wine, and are far better than some of the fat Gyani’s that you see on Soho Road!

Udasis and jogis etc renounce the world and sit in caves etc. But sikhs as you rightly say do not. But then that does not mean that we become what society defines us as. Society is a fickle thing, it evolves with trends and fashions. This is not the society we need. The society we require is that of sadhsangat, the society of saints. Longing for the society of saints and not desiring the other is not rejecting the world nor is it renounciation. it is choosing that which will help you find vaheguru over that which will most likely not. and yes attachement is a big part of wht we must let go.

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Hoe is society a fickle thing? It is trends and fashion’s that are fickle, not society itself. If you choose to be a sheep within society and follow the masses then yes you are fickle. If you are independent, and follow Guru’s will and stand firm like a rock within the ocean of society, soon man people within that ocean will grab on to that rock.

If you choose to not participate within society and stand outside the ocean, how will you be noticed? How will you be able to influence that ocean? How will you be able to make the rock grow?

My fear is we are becoming Udasis, who have substituted the Gurudwara for the cave.

Yes we live in this world and yes we live within 'society' but we do not need to let this society dictate how we live our lives by ITS morals is what this whole article was about. Our society needs to be of the guru and his gurmukhs, not of the other.

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We shouldn’t allow society to dictate how we live, but we should not also ignore it. Then we have no idea of what is going on.

What make’s you think there are not Gurmukhs in the society at large? The non-turbaned and non-Sikh variety of Gurmukh’s are there to my friend!

You seem to only be able to see society as an all inclusive mass object which involves one and all. This is not the case. Society can be broken down and split into smal groups up to nations etc. Rejecting or not wanting to be neccesarily part of or follow the charecteristics of a group is not rejection of the world, it is the wish to follow ones own path and not follow the rest as a dear does.

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This is where you are wrong:

Guru Gobind Singh Ji stated

Manas Ki Jaat Ekh Paachano

Recognise the Human Race as One

There is only one society, and that is of the human race! You can be a full participant within society, yet not follow all the fickle parts of it like a sheep!

Posion is greater in places where there is drink, smoke etc. The environment you are in, the discussions taking place etc all effect us. Everything is poison otherthan the place where naam is taking place and gurmat is discussed. Of course it is hard for us to be in such places all the time, but we should at least try and be in such company as much as possible.

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Poison is not greater in the PLACES as you claim, but is greater in the HEARTS of people who have the 5 vices. I have observed such POISON in society generally. Even more so in Gurudwara’s.

When Jesus gave wine to his disciple’s do you think he had poison in his heart? He was discussing “Naam” too.

There is no monopoly Sikhism has on where Gurmukhs meet. The Gurmukhs can be met anywhere, other than places where people are deliberately feeding their 5 vices. I don’t think people are feeding their 5 vices in a Harvester or a Wacky Warehouse!

A gurmukh is not a turbaned man and you know that. if it was then going by the number of turbaned men ones sees walking into pubs etc we should all be going there. No, a gurmukh is one as defined by guru sahib, a sikh as described by guru ji in gurbani. I trust you know the shabad to which i refer. If it is ever in your destiny to meet such souls then do ask them these questions.

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However, that is implied in everything you have written. What you are saying is that Sikh institution’s of turbaned men are the sole places of this. I am saying its not.

These turbaned men who walk into pubs are not necessarily bad people. I see a lot worse at Gurudwara’s.

just to add, controling the vices is itself not an indication of gurmukh, he or she needs more than control but that is another discussion.

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I disagree!

This is the key, and if this basic fundamental step cannot be understood, then, there is no hope for anything else.

Ok just that the pic looks remarkably like sant jarnail singh ji so i just wondered given your opposition to this 'talibanistoc' outlook on the world.

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The “Talliban” are the complete opposite of what Sikhism stands for. Sikhism stand for Freedom. Taliban stands for oppression. Sikhism stands for religious tolerance. Taliban stand for religious bigotry. Sikhism stands for euality, and Taliban stands for inequality etc etc

Get the picture……..nothing to do with the turban or beard as you have implied!

Just to repeat the point i have made several times, sikhi does not remounce the world, it smily realises it for what it really is, false and a dream! we need to concentrate on vaheguru and sikhi and not worry about whether we fit into the worlds vision and what the world thinks or does! 80 or 90 years is too short a time to worry about these things! alas i wish i could myslef realise the dream and focus on the reality i.e ikongkar vaheguru!!

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However, Sikhi is concerned about what part we play within society. For Miri there is Piri afterall!

If all we think about is the Spiritual, then we will be lost.

As i said it does not appear that we will agree on this topic and with reference to your comment regarding sikh history i will finish by saying that this is where we in fact started.Within myself mentioning certain stories from history and you questioning their reliability. Ultimately we al follow our predestined paths and will do as gurus hukum dictates.

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I question all the stories and cross reference them with other recorded events. In this way a picture is built up of what happened. For example, there are parts of some Sakhi’s that can be used to this effect, but to believe everything written in them blindly would be a folly.

Correct, we do follow predestined paths, but the Serenty prayer somes up the Sikh sentiments on this:

God Grant me, the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference”

Best Wishes! :e:

[AK-47]

I dont know who said about eating and drnking things it wasnt me. I repeat my point which you failed to realise. Simply by refusing to participate in something does not make u a recluse. It is your option to do so. Refusing to go to a certain place does not mean you remounce society. During the Gurus times people would visit the graves of muslims peer's from what i understand in the guru gobind singh ji forbade his sikhs from visiting such places. That does not mean that they became recluses but just that they dont go there! simple!

Fair enough most of us will not want to drink, but that is not why we dnt go there. We dont go to these places as we feel they are inappropriate places for gursikhs to go to. You will again call it a ridiculous notion but if a sikh was to say he had no problem with gambling and going to casinos? had no problem wit kaam going to strip clubs etc. Just becuase you feel you wont be tempted is not an excuse to say you can go!

And brother please, stop referring to gyannis on soho roaf and this politician or the other. these are not the people we aspire to emulate, we look towards gurmukhs. Use sensible comparisons if you wish to make them.

Brother, seriously go to sikhi to the max and type world, false, dream etc and see what you get. iv said before its a basic method but just see what results you get. see how guru ji says this sansar is choota, it is a dream! we need to see beyond this world and realise vaheguru!

you talk of being a rock in he middle of an ocean. Well you be that rock, me personally im going to get on the jahaaj of vaheguru and sail across the ocean. ps this is something which guru ji mentions countless times!! that we must sail across the ocean of this world.. not stand like a rock in the middle of it!

perhaps your defintion of gurmukh is different to mine. A gurmukh is one who has his face towards guru granth sahib ji maharajh. Yes good people exist and other faiths exist, but are they gurmukh in the sikhi sense? I think not.

i do not reject 'society' in the sense that i have a job, i recieved an education etc, but will i follow it? no i will not i will seek the sangat of the gurmukhs where i can!

And yes there are unfortunety NOT gurmukhs at large! They are very very rare indeed, in fact guru ji says if you ever find one, grab his feet and never let go! they are the diamonds we seek, unfortuntely your experience seems to be limited to tohra and gyannis on soho rd which is wat u keep mentioning!

Sorry brother but in this case it is you who is wrong. even the most basic study of sociology which i have not studied by the way will tell you how society functions. society deveops, changes, begins, finishes etc etc. We have sikh societies, we have punk rock societies! difference? yes!

the quote you gave has nothing to do with society!

Manas ki JAAT is the human RACE. there is only one race ie the human race as u said, but how does that mean that there is one society?!!? each society has its own rules, trends, rituals, observations etc? the world has countless societies! eg western, eastern! i think you have confused yourself a little here!

jesus can do as he wishes. he is not a practicing sikh! nor is he our guru! he had/has his own rehat.

you are feeding your vices every second that we are not contemplating vaheguru! guru gobind singh ji says that we must constantly be at war! this is with our mind and the vices, the weapon we use is naam!

you say gurmukhs can be met anywhere, i ask you AGAIN how many gurmukhs, true gurmukhs have you ever met in a pub or a bar? Where are you most likely to meet them? in the darbar of the guru! simple!

You miss my point as regrading the defintion of a gurmukh! yes other faiths have their own saints etc but i refer to gurmukhs! you are NOT going to find GURmukhs in pubs! to seek the sangat of gurmukhs you need to start by searching at the feet of the guru which is in his darbar!

i am not one to judge who is good or bad, simply state my understanding of gurmat. You seem to have a big grudge against gurdwareh, gyannis etc. this is effecting your perception which is why i think you are somewhat disalussioned with sadhsangat and the darbar sahib.

with refernce to control over the five vices. Ok lets assume an individual has controlled the five. thats it done. then what? has he reached sachkhand? has he found vaheguru? there are probably people out there who have conrolled their anger, have controled their lust, but without vahegurus pyaar and his naam whats the point? control is ONE step on the right path! it is a KEY step yes, but not the be all and end all!

i did not refer to taliban regarding beard and turban. simply referred back to your use of the word in one of your previous posts, which i believe is the word you used to describe an outlook such as mine and some of the others in this discussion.

yes miri and piri, but errm where does visiting a pub have to do anything with either!? the world is a dream and yes we are here and we are forced to live with it, hence be a 'part' of it in the physical sense. But the RELALISATION must exist that it is not a true world!

Look at my ID, im hardly the kind of guy that focuses purely on the spiritual!

we do what is RIGHT accroding to gurmat. We do not do what is right accoriding to 'society'. If we help somebody it is because it is the right thing to do! society in the mainstream understanding of the word should effect us as little as possible! it is the society of saints which we should seek (and by saints brothers take that as gurmukhs etc ir u are uncomfortable with the concept of sikh saints).

If our brothers and sisters are ready to march when guru sahib is taken into a party hall, then would they not march if guru sahib was taken into a harvestor? we as sikhs of the guru represent the image of the guru! khalsa mero roop he khas. how brilliant is it if guru granth sahib ji is leaning against the rail in ur local bar yeh? i take it by your stance on this issue that you have no problems with guru sahib going to such places either? Since nobody is goin to force guru granth sahib ji to drink alcohol etc. i mean we might be weak buru guru ji isnt are they? Would you be comfortable with that?

Im sure you will call this example, but it seems strange that where so many youngsters are making a stance for the guru and for the image of sikhi not to be muddied with its associations with clubs, pubs alcohol etc, we have our elders who dot seem to see an issue in it at all! perhaps you are too COMFORTABLE in your life to see what is happening!

Brother i will not debate any further not becase i am angry etc, but because the point is simple and virtually all singhs and kaurs know the differnec and can see common sense. if a few people cannot, then well its up to vaheguru to give them kirpa!

Im am afriad to say that if i do ever see an amrithdhari singh walking out of a pub or a bar/club etc, it will bring some pain to see them there. but then i guess that is me. Seek the true society, the true SANGAT.

[randip singh]

I dont know who said about eating and drnking things it wasnt me. I repeat my point which you failed to realise. Simply by refusing to participate in something does not make u a recluse. It is your option to do so. Refusing to go to a certain place does not mean you remounce society. During the Gurus times people would visit the graves of muslims peer's from what i understand in the guru gobind singh ji forbade his sikhs from visiting such places. That does not mean that they became recluses but just that they dont go there! simple!

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You mentioned eating and drinking…not me!

You are comparing apples with orange’s yet again. Using strip club analogies with going to a club to see a band. The comparisons are absurd!

Now if you were to visit a grave with the intention of worshipping it, then I would say that is un-sikh. If you were to visit the grave for gaining historical knowledge, or seeing it in an aesthetic sense, that is different. Much like visiting a club for striptease or for watching a band. The two do NOT compare.

Fair enough most of us will not want to drink, but that is not why we dnt go there. We dont go to these places as we feel they are inappropriate places for gursikhs to go to. You will again call it a ridiculous notion but if a sikh was to say he had no problem with gambling and going to casinos? had no problem wit kaam going to strip clubs etc. Just becuase you feel you wont be tempted is not an excuse to say you can go!

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Why are they inappropriate? You are not drinking? How is having a meal at a Harvester Pub inappropriate?

Again absurd comparison’s with Gambling places and Striptease places with Harvester’s or Wacky warehouses is plain absurd.

I know plenty of Gursikh’s who take their families out on Sunday’s for a meal at a smokeless country pub. The kids play in the play area afterwards. According to you they are commiting a sin. I cannot see how this family activity is causing harm.

And brother please, stop referring to gyannis on soho roaf and this politician or the other. these are not the people we aspire to emulate, we look towards gurmukhs. Use sensible comparisons if you wish to make them.

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Just like comparing strip clubs with Harvester ehh?

However, its true. Conversley you meet some very good people at Gurudwara’s in Soho Road, who are very close friends of mine.

Brother, seriously go to sikhi to the max and type world, false, dream etc and see what you get. iv said before its a basic method but just see what results you get. see how guru ji says this sansar is choota, it is a dream! we need to see beyond this world and realise vaheguru!

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I prefer www.srigranth.org thanks, and what you are saying need to be read in context, especially with the sociological and historical context.

you talk of being a rock in he middle of an ocean. Well you be that rock, me personally im going to get on the jahaaj of vaheguru and sail across the ocean. ps this is something which guru ji mentions countless times!! that we must sail across the ocean of this world.. not stand like a rock in the middle of it!

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A roack or a ship in the ocean, means you are in the ocean, and not out of it as you are suggesting. Either way, what I have stated stands, and semantics do not come into it.

Either way you have to be flexible.

perhaps your defintion of gurmukh is different to mine. A gurmukh is one who has his face towards guru granth sahib ji maharajh. Yes good people exist and other faiths exist, but are they gurmukh in the sikhi sense? I think not.

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You know what, the Gurudwara is open to all faiths, because it is a recognition that Gurmukhs reside in all faiths. Sikhism is a Universal faith and does not narrowly confine itself just to those whose profess to be Sikh.

i do not reject 'society' in the sense that i have a job, i recieved an education etc, but will i follow it? no i will not i will seek the sangat of the gurmukhs where i can!

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You may meet one in a Wacky Warehouse or a Harvester or even TGI Fridays!

And yes there are unfortunety NOT gurmukhs at large!

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Is that by YOUR definition? Every human being has the potential to be a Gurmukh, and no one is perfect my friend. Even the Guru’s considered themselves to be imperfect.

They are very very rare indeed, in fact guru ji says if you ever find one, grab his feet and never let go! they are the diamonds we seek, unfortuntely your experience seems to be limited to tohra and gyannis on soho rd which is wat u keep mentioning!

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Gurmukhs are not rare. They can be found in anyone who has a love for humanity.

The examples I use have to be absurd as the strip club examples to illustrate a point! :doh:

Sorry brother but in this case it is you who is wrong. even the most basic study of sociology which i have not studied by the way will tell you how society functions. society deveops, changes, begins, finishes etc etc. We have sikh societies, we have punk rock societies! difference? yes!

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Not wrong at all. All the differences with society are man made, be the religion, caste, creed, Amritdhari, non-amritdhari……………and the discrimination that goes along with this is man made.

No………the human race is one, and society is one in God’s eye’s BUT in human eye’s it is separate.

the quote you gave has nothing to do with society!

Manas ki JAAT is the human RACE. there is only one race ie the human race as u said, but how does that mean that there is one society?!!? each society has its own rules, trends, rituals, observations etc? the world has countless societies! eg western, eastern! i think you have confused yourself a little here!

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The quote has everything to do with society. The fact you are dividing humanity up into east, west shows that division.

The human race and society is one, and it is we humans that seek to divide it up. We recognise that people are diverse, but we also recognise human society as being one.

jesus can do as he wishes. he is not a practicing sikh! nor is he our guru! he had/has his own rehat.

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Nevertheless, Guru Nanak recognised his teachings, and for you to be dismissive of other religious teachings is wrong.

We are Sikhs that’s true, but we also respect religious leaders outside Sikhism.

you are feeding your vices every second that we are not contemplating vaheguru! guru gobind singh ji says that we must constantly be at war! this is with our mind and the vices, the weapon we use is naam!

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We use naam in our own ways. What maybe Ok for you may not necessarily ok for you. For example, I may live in an area miles from a Gurudwara and therefore I meditate at home. You may be next door to one ad choose to meditate there.

you say gurmukhs can be met anywhere, i ask you AGAIN how many gurmukhs, true gurmukhs have you ever met in a pub or a bar? Where are you most likely to meet them? in the darbar of the guru! simple! !

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I’ve met as many in Wine Bars , in Shops, Cinema’s, Work etc as I have met in Gurudwra’s. Answer that does it?

You miss my point as regrading the defintion of a gurmukh! yes other faiths have their own saints etc but i refer to gurmukhs! you are NOT going to find GURmukhs in pubs! to seek the sangat of gurmukhs you need to start by searching at the feet of the guru which is in his darbar!

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No, I haven’t missed your point. All the major faiths point out the key principles in Sikhism. Sikhism, has distilled these key points and cut to the chase.

The Gurmukh definition is NOT narrowly consigned to a Sikh, but to any human being…….and you can find Gurmukhs in any race caste or creed……..in Gurudwara’s, Bars, restaurants…………….anywhere…………

i am not one to judge who is good or bad, simply state my understanding of gurmat. You seem to have a big grudge against gurdwareh, gyannis etc. this is effecting your perception which is why i think you are somewhat disalussioned with sadhsangat and the darbar sahib.

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I have no grudge………….just using absurd analogies to counteract absurd analogies……………….like I said……good or bad can be found anywhere.

with refernce to control over the five vices. Ok lets assume an individual has controlled the five. thats it done. then what? has he reached sachkhand? has he found vaheguru? there are probably people out there who have conrolled their anger, have controled their lust, but without vahegurus pyaar and his naam whats the point? control is ONE step on the right path! it is a KEY step yes, but not the be all and end all!

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By the very definition of “control” of the five vices, it is a continual battle. You will be forever checking the vices and controlling them. The mechanism is helping you to exert this control is the tools that vaheguru has provided………….but either way it is a continual battle.

i did not refer to taliban regarding beard and turban. simply referred back to your use of the word in one of your previous posts, which i believe is the word you used to describe an outlook such as mine and some of the others in this discussion.

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The Taliban wish to curb freedom and choice……sikhi does not……….and some of the comments here made it seem as if their was a wish to control every aspect of society, and judgements placed on people who do not conform to what some see as immoral activities.

yes miri and piri, but errm where does visiting a pub have to do anything with either!? the world is a dream and yes we are here and we are forced to live with it, hence be a 'part' of it in the physical sense. But the RELALISATION must exist that it is not a true world!

Look at my ID, im hardly the kind of guy that focuses purely on the spiritual!

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Errm what do strip clubs have to do with Harvesters?

Miri and Piri and Spiritual and Temporal, my point is if you neglect the Temporal in favour of the Spiritual, you will suffer. The world is not a dream, it is real, but the things that man creates within the world are a dream…………a distraction from the goals of the Gurmukh.

Going to a Harvester for a Sunday meal with the family is not one of them!

we do what is RIGHT accroding to gurmat. We do not do what is right accoriding to 'society'. If we help somebody it is because it is the right thing to do! society in the mainstream understanding of the word should effect us as little as possible! it is the society of saints which we should seek (and by saints brothers take that as gurmukhs etc ir u are uncomfortable with the concept of sikh saints).

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Again you assume Saints and Gurmukhs do not exist in society. They do.

What is this mainstream society? If you are saying pursuance of the 5 vices is mainstream, then your average Gurudwara come’s under that definition. Go and have a look at the car parks, and count the number of Mecedez Benz in the car parks (Materialism).

If our brothers and sisters are ready to march when guru sahib is taken into a party hall, then would they not march if guru sahib was taken into a harvestor? we as sikhs of the guru represent the image of the guru! khalsa mero roop he khas. how brilliant is it if guru granth sahib ji is leaning against the rail in ur local bar yeh? i take it by your stance on this issue that you have no problems with guru sahib going to such places either? Since nobody is goin to force guru granth sahib ji to drink alcohol etc. i mean we might be weak buru guru ji isnt are they? Would you be comfortable with that?

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Who’s taking the Guru Granth Sahib ji into a bar? An absurd example….bit like Badal and Tohra :doh: .

If you are saying Khalsa Mere Roop and taking it literally, then maybe we should look like Books………………..another absurd example by me.

Your argument holds no substance. The Guru Grath Sahib issue is absurd. The Guru Granth Sahib used be taken anywhere in the old days, and has been done so, so long as it is done respectfully.

Im sure you will call this example, but it seems strange that where so many youngsters are making a stance for the guru and for the image of sikhi not to be muddied with its associations with clubs, pubs alcohol etc, we have our elders who dot seem to see an issue in it at all! perhaps you are too COMFORTABLE in your life to see what is happening!

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No not comfortable, but seeing the world for what it is, and not what I want it to become……………..afterall, that would be Manmukhi to want the world to follow my way.

I am proud to say that I am for Freedom and not for turning the world into a haven for religious zealots, where all women would be forced to cover up, and we would all be forced to wear the same dress and follow the same code.

Page 120, Line 9 -- Guru Amar Das

In all colors and forms, You are pervading.

varan roop varteh sabh tayray.

The elders are right….and its not an issue.

Brother i will not debate any further not becase i am angry etc, but because the point is simple and virtually all singhs and kaurs know the differnec and can see common sense. if a few people cannot, then well its up to vaheguru to give them kirpa!

Im am afriad to say that if i do ever see an amrithdhari singh walking out of a pub or a bar/club etc, it will bring some pain to see them there. but then i guess that is me. Seek the true society, the true SANGAT.

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Like I’ve said all along, I’m not advocating going to pubs and clubs…………….but using absurd arguments that they are strip joints, or sleazy is silly.

If you are Ok with it and not guided by the 5 vices in going to a place, then it is fine.

[AK-47]

LOL ok randip, as i said no more debating from me. This has gotten absurd and to continue would be to discuss much of the basics of sikhi which even children with a mahan kosh or basic punjabi dictionary could easily understand concepts and definitions but you refuse to grasp! You carry on with what you do, i hope the mahapursh and gurmukhs you meet in the bar help take you a long way! lol good luck! For the rest of us as i have said repeatedly i hope vaheguru blesses us with sadh sangat, blesses us with his darsan in his darbar and lets us follow in the steps of the great gurmukhs like sant jarnail singh ji, baba harnam singh ji, bhai randheer singh ji, bhai fauja singh ji, bhai joga singh ji, baba ishar singh ji, baba takhar singh ji and so forth.

Benti to admin, perhaps you can seperate the article from the 'debate' as the article is good enough to stand on its own merits.

Thank you again Manvir Singh

[randip singh]

LOL ok randip, as i said no more debating from me. This has gotten absurd and to continue would be to discuss much of the basics of sikhi which even children with a mahan kosh or basic punjabi dictionary could easily understand concepts and definitions but you refuse to grasp! You carry on with what you do, i hope the mahapursh and gurmukhs you meet in the bar help take you a long way! lol good luck! For the rest of us as i have said repeatedly i hope vaheguru blesses us with sadh sangat, blesses us with his darsan in his darbar and lets us follow in the steps of the great gurmukhs like sant jarnail singh ji, baba harnam singh ji, bhai randheer singh ji, bhai fauja singh ji, bhai joga singh ji, baba ishar singh ji, baba takhar singh ji and so forth.

Benti to admin, perhaps you can seperate the article from the 'debate' as the article is good enough to stand on its own merits.

Thank you again Manvir Singh

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And what you fail to grasp again and again is that this is not about going into pubs and clubs!

[Jitty]

I have been an avid reader of this site and one thing that has stopped me posting is that everytime I have a view it tend to be similar to Randip Singh and the people on this site seem unable or unwilling to look at any subject from any other side than there own.

I went to the same uni as the original poster and was one of those that did drink smoke etc etc. I am not proud of it but I enjoyed my time and have no regrets.

Now I want to become a good gursikh so would like to stop drinking with the eventual aim being to become amritdhari.

One thing i found whilst at uni is that my amritdhari friends did come to the pub but would not drink and would leave if the atmosphere became very smokey. They havd always done this and knew what to expect in different places.

They have full faith in themselves so are happy to meet new people. Even people who drink and smoke can be nice.

The one person who i remember most is a young amritdhari who I wont name but we shall call cheema. He stayed away from the bars before coming to uni and had never drank, smoked or visited any place that you may consider bad. To cut a long story short this very religious boy is now a mona who smaokes and drinks.

All I am trying to say is by hiding away you will never know if your own willpower and fait are strong enough to stop you doing these things.

I am not saying that you should all start gong to the pub but you need to not try so hard to avoid them because I feel you are alienating yourself from the community you live.

If this offends anyone then apologies but these are my views that does not make them right, religious or special it just makes them mine.

[SSM]

glad you decided to contribute!

well, ok everyone comes in with their own views and rarely changes them but that shouldn't stop you from posting, we all disagree to some extent so post!

ok, I think your young friend had one problem, he tried to cut himself off from others, from what people his age do.

I think that is different from people who simply do not want to go to certain places.

eg. lets say I have been clubbing and then take amrit so force myself not to go, thats different from if I decide I don't like going anymore and that's perhaps the position most people on this forum are in, at least I am.

The reason I avoid certain places as much as possible is not because I dont trust myself around those ppl and those drinks and that smoke and those women/men, but because I just dont like taking my Sri Sahib to a place where I'm going to come home smelling of smoke.

Respect to your views and if you are saying that we should not cut ourselves off from society then I agree there.

I'm just thinking how far you take that? How far into society do you have to mix before you can convince yourself or others that you are a good sikh?

Thanks