Starting University...

[randip singh]

Hello people, I was browsing the web and I somehow ended up here and read the whole thread! Randip- I like your views, because they're very similar to mine! But sometimes it feels like your fighting a losing battle, with some narrow-minded people!!! Just wanted to add my views to this discussion, a lot of people are here mentioning the true path, or the path of truth, what exactly is this path of truth? Is it one where one doesn't smoke or drink, does that bring you closer to god? make you more favoured by god? I mean even the wording assumes there is only one path that all other paths are wrong.... Guru Nanak ji said there utlimately is no good or bad. Meaning there is really ultimately no dualism.. just what is. Yet here I see self styled spiritual warriors ensnared in this very dualism, those in the antipub/drink camp and those who accept things are not always in black and white. Does going to the gurdwara make you a better person in the eyes of god then if you went to the pub? if someone has a answer to this, let me know how you communicate with the big guy...God is everywhere, and upon realising this I've realised that one place is not holier or more sanctified then any another, we are living in the biggest gurwara of them all! On my spiritual quest i have progressed and learned more about myself from people from all walks of life not exclusively from those who are teetotal or even religious figures. In my humble view I find Sikhi profound and multi-layered, it is for me much more than a religion, and it is here were the danger lies and bigotry becomes influential when someone starts to institutionise and organise something so it can be easily digested by the masses, open your minds people! Read the GGS without prejudice and come to your conclusions! not the conclusion of others!

Hi Seeker....thanks for your kind comments.

I ould add I am not fighting a losing battle because ultimately I go and talk to the youth of today and find out their views, and see whether they conflict with Bani. For the most part they do not.

As for smoking and drinking, I do personally find smoking particularly abhorent, and if you read Sikh History and philosophy, smoking and drinking would go against the grain of Sikh thought. The reason for this is that Sikhism talks of consuming what is good for the mind and body. Smoking destroys healthy cells and causes many diseases. Drinking destroys valuable braincells. I used to drink, and discovered the error of it. Drinking also lowers inhibitions and the 5 thieves Kamm, Krodh, Moh, Lobh and Hankaar come to the surface. Hence why I think it should be avoided by Sikhs.

Regards

[puneetkaur]

Does going to the gurdwara make you a better person in the eyes of god then if you went to the pub? if someone has a answer to this, let me know how you communicate with the big guy...God is everywhere, and upon realising this I've realised that one place is not holier or more sanctified then any another, we are living in the biggest gurwara of them all!

Seeker Ji

Gurufateh

I hope you have found answers to your questions in what Randip Singh Ji has said. Besides on your comments re going to the Gurudwara, i'd just like to say its about being in the company of SAADH SANGAT.There are many positive influences of being in saadh sangat ji.when we sit in the Gurudware we listen to GURBANI, which explains us GURU JI'S HUKAM..Each & every shabad in BANI has so much to offer, which we dont understand the very 1st day we go to the Gurudware ji.....its a long road... a sikhs life is all about learning ji & that is exactly the reason we must do Saadh Sangat... for we learn about our endless mistakes, we realize the value of NAAM, of SEWA.... and much much more....when your mind is attuned to Gurbani, when you only want to do simran... you will never feel the need to go to a pub!

We dont have to be 24*7 in the Gurudwara.but its a beautiful feeling just going there.... for it is a pawan Asthan of Guru Ji's parkash!

You cannot compare a pub with Guru Ji's pawan Asthan! The atmosphere in a pub cannot have a positive influence on your thoughts ji....

I agree that God is everywhere....in fact he is within us right now but we dont realize this for we are so lost in our worldly affairs... and we get lost/wander if we are not in the right company!

First we need to become better individuals in our own eyes..... then only can we think that perhaps God is happy with us!we need to work very hard to attune our souls with THE DIVINE.......THE INFINITE.....NIRANKAR...

We are very lucky to have been blessed with a 'manukha' jeewan! we need'nt wander or look elsewhere when Guru Maharaj is right here, for us, to answer all our questions.

Bhulla chukka layi mauf karna

Guru rakha

[randip singh]

You cannot compare a pub with Guru Ji's pawan Asthan! The atmosphere in a pub cannot have a positive influence on your thoughts ji....

I would argue that anywhere where people with common sense could be regarded as a temple of knowledge.

With regards to pubs and negative influences...I would argue that it depends where you go and what your intention is.

If your intention is to get blind drunk, and cause havoc, you will go to a sleazy drinking den.

If your intention (like mine and my colleagues), is to engage in civlicised conversation with good food, then you will go to somewhere classier, maybe a Harvester or something like that.

Thats the whole point of this debate........about shutting yourself up in Gurudwara's and ignoring what is going on around you.

[Seeker]

Drinking destroys valuable braincells

hmmm yeh so does playing football you know everytime you header a football you lose 50 braincells! I think drinking to get drunk is stupid, not neccessarily evil or bad but stupid. But I think moderate drinking is totally acceptable. To be a Sikh I think you have avoid being ethnocentric too, I mean red wine represents the blood of christ, and the clergy are allowed to drink, to my knowledge( which was acquired watching episodes of Father Ted). In most cases in europe wine, beer is considered part of their culinary culture. However for my part even though I do not drink now(though i might in the future), I do not regret drinking or shun that part of my history, it has formed part of what I am now. i would say only in drunkeness have I known my true self for the worst in me and the better- I had a very profound spiritually aware experience while drunk. In reality alcohol and narcortics offer us a short cut or false/temporary happiness, they break down emotional and social barriers that should be overcome naturally anyway. Its not a question of good or bad, Its more a different strokes for different folks theory, the paths to god are innumerable!

[curious_man]

yeah "Seeker"... we shld stop following the orders of guru ji and take ure advice!!

u want to kno wht u r ...do simran ..do paath...and its the ppl who will tell how u are..becoz this world is like mirror... the mirror tells u how u look..similarly ppl will tell u !!!

scientific theories keep changing!!!... tell me one theory which was never ever changed????...huh..

all theories keep evolving..!!

but guru ji's theory.. is forever!!

[Seeker]

yes curious man stop! stop now! Like exactly where I've categorically said to stop listening to guruji in my last post???? How exactly did you come to that conclusion??? read what is written not what you think is written :TH:

u want to kno wht u r ...do simran ..do paath...and its the ppl who will tell how u are..becoz this world is like mirror... the mirror tells u how u look..similarly ppl will tell u !!!

so you'd rather know yourself by looking outward and not inward!?! Many of the Gurus did inexhaustible simran and paath as well as many other revered saints and prophets, yet were prosecuted and the masses were against them, should they accept who they are because people tell them what they are? you would look to a world of maya to find who you truly are? some one says your this another says your that...you still have to look inward to know which is true....

Theories change because our understanding constantly evolves(then theory), you simply cannot hold one view and say this is it, the world is dynamic. there is no 'guru ji' theory' you cannot simplify such a vast amount of knowledge/wisdom and call it a theory. What evolves is our ourstanding through experience. You may think you sussed out what a line in the SGGS means but something may happen to you, and you may gain a totally different understanding or insight from that same line!!!

[curious_man]

Many of the Gurus did inexhaustible simran and paath as well as many other revered saints and prophets, yet were prosecuted and the masses were against them

seeker veerji.. gurus, saints, etc, know wht they r doin, when they reach at that level... they r not affected by ppl's feelings towards them..they r just totally devoted to god.. those ppl who prosecute these saints know very well tht they r good, holy but due to jealousy factor never praise them...

and abt the theory thingy... i dont want to play with words... all i wanna say is tht...guruji was strictly against alcohol and narcotics... so sikhs (and non-sikhs) shld not take them. now if ure "evolved thinking" says its ok to drink becoz today's scientists say its healthy....well then i have to say no more!!

sry if i sound rude!

VJKK VJKF :T:

[sskhalsa]

Great article. I really enjoy reading anything by Manvir Singh Khalsa.

I haven't read all 86 replies, but I have looked over the statements of randip singh.

Though he is correct in arguing that one should not live in recluse, his assumption that Manvir Singh condones such action has no basis.

Manvir Singh simply chose not to go to places he felt were not in line with his principles; a course of action that falls directly in line with gurmat.

And to wrap it up, some True Words:

kabeer saadhhoo kee sa(n)gath reho jo kee bhoosee khaao ||

Kabeer, I will remain in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, even if I have only coarse bread to eat.

honehaar so hoeihai saakath sa(n)g n jaao ||99||

Whatever will be, will be. I will not associate with the faithless cynics. ||99||

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?ShabadID=5067

[randip singh]

Drinking destroys valuable braincells

hmmm yeh so does playing football you know everytime you header a football you lose 50 braincells! I think drinking to get drunk is stupid, not neccessarily evil or bad but stupid. But I think moderate drinking is totally acceptable. To be a Sikh I think you have avoid being ethnocentric too, I mean red wine represents the blood of christ, and the clergy are allowed to drink, to my knowledge( which was acquired watching episodes of Father Ted). In most cases in europe wine, beer is considered part of their culinary culture. However for my part even though I do not drink now(though i might in the future), I do not regret drinking or shun that part of my history, it has formed part of what I am now. i would say only in drunkeness have I known my true self for the worst in me and the better- I had a very profound spiritually aware experience while drunk. In reality alcohol and narcortics offer us a short cut or false/temporary happiness, they break down emotional and social barriers that should be overcome naturally anyway. Its not a question of good or bad, Its more a different strokes for different folks theory, the paths to god are innumerable!

Friend you are missing a big point here.

The reason why people get intoxicated is to escape reality.....call it to relax...release tension...release pressure whatever.......it is to escape reality. Sikhi tell us to face reality head on at meet the challenges set for us. Not to hide away and say "Oh I am stressed therefore I need a drink"...............NO Sikhi would say counter the reasons for the stress and deal with it....don't escape it. It is TEMPORARY HAPPINESS with alcohol until the reality of life hits home. I know about this because I used to drink.

ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੩ ॥

सलोक मः ३ ॥

salok mehlaa 3.

Shalok, Third Mehl:

ਮਾਣਸੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਆਣਿਆ ਮਾਣਸੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਆਇ ॥

माणसु भरिआ आणिआ माणसु भरिआ आइ ॥

maanas bhari-aa aani-aa maanas bhari-aa aa-ay.

One person brings a full bottle, and another fills his cup.

ਜਿਤੁ ਪੀਤੈ ਮਤਿ ਦੂਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਬਰਲੁ ਪਵੈ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਇ ॥

जितु पीतै मति दूरि होइ बरलु पवै विचि आइ ॥

jit peetai mat door ho-ay baral pavai vich aa-ay.

Drinking the wine, his intelligence departs, and madness enters his mind;

ਆਪਣਾ ਪਰਾਇਆ ਨ ਪਛਾਣਈ ਖਸਮਹੁ ਧਕੇ ਖਾਇ ॥

आपणा पराइआ न पछाणई खसमहु धके खाइ ॥

aapnaa paraa-i-aa na pachhaan-ee khasmahu Dhakay khaa-ay.

he cannot distinguish between his own and others, and he is struck down by his Lord and Master.

ਜਿਤੁ ਪੀਤੈ ਖਸਮੁ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਦਰਗਹ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਜਾਇ ॥

जितु पीतै खसमु विसरै दरगह मिलै सजाइ ॥

jit peetai khasam visrai dargeh milai sajaa-ay.

Drinking it, he forgets his Lord and Master, and he is punished in the Court of the Lord.

ਝੂਠਾ ਮਦੁ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਪੀਚਈ ਜੇ ਕਾ ਪਾਰਿ ਵਸਾਇ ॥

झूठा मदु मूलि न पीचई जे का पारि वसाइ ॥

jhoothaa mad mool na peech-ee jay kaa paar vasaa-ay.

Do not drink the false wine at all, if it is in your power.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਸਚੁ ਮਦੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਜਿਸੁ ਆਇ ॥

नानक नदरी सचु मदु पाईऐ सतिगुरु मिलै जिसु आइ ॥

naanak nadree sach mad paa-ee-ai satgur milai jis aa-ay.

O Nanak, the True Guru comes and meets the mortal; by His Grace, one obtains the True Wine.

ਸਦਾ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੈ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਹੈ ਮਹਲੀ ਪਾਵੈ ਥਾਉ ॥੧॥

सदा साहिब कै रंगि रहै महली पावै थाउ ॥१॥

sadaa saahib kai rang rahai mahlee paavai thaa-o. ||1||

He shall dwell forever in the Love of the Lord Master, and obtain a seat in the Mansion of His Presence. ||1||

The wine drinker is EXACTLY like the man who condems ALL pubs/bars/reteraunts as places of ill repute....and chooses to shut himself up within the Gurudwara away from the realities of life. He will never realise his true potential as a Sikh and his ability through actions, carry his message to others who may have lost their way.