Are Sikhs Hindus? (I nice reply)

[Guest Akaal108]

Bijla Singh,

now you take complete U turn and bought sants into this discussion and start cussing them.. i can realize your frustration man..lol

easy up on your kattar behaviour then we will talk again...take a chill pill.

by the way if you got so much garmi against sants why you got sant jarnail singh bhindranwaley as your avtar...stop giving wrong impression to people..true you is visible.. it's fun to debate with katar panthis.. just gotta finger them a little (not literal way ) they get all hot heads.

any way back to the topic:

Sikhi was started by Guru Nanak Dev Ji. go ask any sant of yours. Guru Gobind Singh Ji says he did bhagtee at hemkunt sahib but Guru Ji doesn't say he was in human form. in fact, he did bhagtee for four yugs and then Akal Purakh called Guru Ji and ordered him to come to this world. This proves two things. One, Guru Ji was not in any human form before coming to this world as Gobind Rai simply because no human being can live to see four yugs. Second, he became our Guru when Jot Nanak entered his body. The story of his previous birth holds no significance in Sikhi way of life. if it does then prove it.

sikhi existed before guru nanak dev ji.- Bhagat kabir, baba farid, bhagat namdev, bhagat ravidas, bhagat pipa, bhagat sain, parlad, bhagat dharu, bhagat dhana, bhagat sadhna, gangka papan ..their praises and their bani included in siri guroo granth sahib ji is perfect example for this.. now you going to say ..oh they all reincarnated as gursikhs took amrit from guru maharaj before they got mukhti...hahaha...!

Guru Ji is NOT an avtar. avtar is someone who is in cycle of death and birth. I have given you quotes from Gurbani. I did not use it out of context.

the six types of avtars are as follows;

1. Ansa Avtar- is the avtar taken by rightious kings.

2. Aveshya Avtar - this is avtars with spiritual powers

3. Kala Avtar - this is avtars with extrodinary powers usually 14 or 16 powers

4. Nit Avtar - This is the Avtar taken by Sants and Mahatmas.

5. Namit Avtar - This is where God comes to earth for a short time and does not take birth then dissappears following what work needed to be done. Examples of this are Narsingh and the future avtar of Kalki

6. Pooran Avtar - This is the most powerful Avtar of God before guru Nanak Dev Ji. It was a form which contained almost all powers. Examples of this are Ram and Krishan

Guru Avtar- That is Guru Sahib(Jagat Guru) not only for Sikh.remember Guru Nanak Dev Ji was for all humanity...

Poran avtar and Guru Avtar - sikh katha vachikhs using that term interchangably

Please listen to the first part of the Japji Sahib Katha by Giani Thakur Singh Ji on Gurmatveechar.com where this is all explained.

You have no answers to my points. Did janak not ask brahmins for mahoorats to marry his daughter? All Bhagats in Guru Granth Sahib spoke against brahmins openly but this janak king with so much bhagtee kept going back to brahmins. did he not get hankaar on his way to heaven?

that is not relevant that fact that bhai gurdas ji gave raja janak an title of gurmukh.. that works for me... Gurmukh Maya vich udasi || (Bhai Gurdas Ji)

What does this have to do with Sikhi? what significance does it hold? bani is Bachittar Natak so obviously Guru Ji has to talk about his family background. what else do you expect?

Guru's were enlightened individuals..they were not shamed about their lineage ...siri guroo gobind singh ji mentioned luv and kush in dasam guroo granth... read it carefully...!

A person does not have to practice hinduism to know about it. a person must speak against the wrong things. mannu simartis talk about how severly sudras should be punished but why should one respect it? a wrong thing is wrong no matter where it is written and who wrote it. only good things are accepted and respected. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

you are stuck at negative things but you forgot to mention:

When siri guroo granth sahib ji says:

"Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false".

and

in anand sahib it says that the vedas contain naam, but those that are impure within do not hear it & wander aimlessly.

look it up dude !

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

"Our Guru's lineage are linked with luv and kush ...read bachitar natak."

haha, that is RSS propaganda to the tenth power. All I have to say is please watch "Tabhe Ros Jagayio", this will counter everything Akaal is bringing up.

And Pheena, you always think people are slandering other religions when facts are brought up. In previous posts I said Muslims believe in pilgrimage and fasts, you said you have no right to say this as I am not Muslim. When someone says Hindus worship deities and have contradicting granths you say you can't say this because your not a practitioner of the faith. I'm sorry but the ability to read gives people the right to say what their granths say, yeah i mean faith is really important but the facts are the facts.

In Baani Guru sahib tells us the follies of the hindu rituals and granths. Guru nanak Dev ji went to mecca and put his feet towards the kaaba, why do we ignore these things, what because they are too starightforward and simple to understand.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------poQI pMifq byd KojMqw jIau ] (216-18, gauVI mwJ , mÚ 5)

pothee pandit bayd khojantaa jee-o.

The Pandits, the religious scholars, study the books of the Vedas.

hoie bYrwgI qIriQ nwvMqw jIau ] (216-18, gauVI mwJ , mÚ 5)

ho-ay bairaagee tirath naavantaa jee-o.

Some become renunciates, and bathe at sacred shrines of pilgrimage.

gIq nwd kIrqnu gwvMqw jIau ] (216-18, gauVI mwJ , mÚ 5)

geet naad keertan gaavantaa jee-o.

Some sing tunes and melodies and songs.

hir inrBau nwmu iDAweI jIau ]3] (216-19, gauVI mwJ , mÚ 5)

har nirbha-o naam Dhi-aa-ee jee-o. ||3||

But I meditate on the Naam, the Name of the Fearless Lord. ||3||

Bey ik®pwl suAwmI myry jIau ] (216-19, gauVI mwJ , mÚ 5)

bha-ay kirpaal su-aamee mayray jee-o.

My Lord and Master has become merciful to me.

piqq pivq lig gur ky pYry jIau ] (216-19, gauVI mwJ , mÚ 5)

patit pavit lag gur kay pairay jee-o.

I was a sinner, and I have been sanctified, taking to the Guru's Feet.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------bRhmY grbu kIAw nhI jwinAw ] (224-11, gauVI, mÚ 1)

barahmai garab kee-aa nahee jaani-aa.

Brahma acted in pride, and did not understand.

byd kI ibpiq pVI pCuqwinAw ] (224-12, gauVI, mÚ 1)

bayd kee bipat parhee pachhutaani-aa.

Only when he was faced with the downfall of the Vedas did he repent.

jh pRB ismry qhI mnu mwinAw ]1] (224-12, gauVI, mÚ 1)

jah parabh simray tahee man maani-aa. ||1||

Remembering God in meditation, the mind is conciliated. ||1||

AYsw grbu burw sMswrY ] (224-13, gauVI, mÚ 1)

aisaa garab buraa sansaarai.

Such is the horrible pride of the world.

ijsu guru imlY iqsu grbu invwrY ]1] rhwau ] (224-13, gauVI, mÚ 1)

jis gur milai tis garab nivaarai. ||1|| rahaa-o.

The Guru eliminates the pride of those who meet Him. ||1||Pause||

bil rwjw mwieAw AhMkwrI ] (224-13, gauVI, mÚ 1)

bal raajaa maa-i-aa ahaNkaaree.

Bal the King, in Maya and egotism,

jgn krY bhu Bwr APwrI ] (224-14, gauVI, mÚ 1)

jagan karai baho bhaar afaaree.

held his ceremonial feasts, but he was puffed up with pride.

ibnu gur pUCy jwie pieAwrI ]2] (224-14, gauVI, mÚ 1)

bin gur poochhay jaa-ay pa-i-aaree. ||2||

Without the Guru's advice, he had to go to the underworld. ||2||

[Guest Akaal108]

haha, that is RSS propaganda to the tenth power. All I have to say is please watch "Tabhe Ros Jagayio", this will counter everything Akaal is bringing up.

I think i ll listen to sant gyani gurbachan singh khalsa bhindranvaley (who is recnognized as panthic ratan(gem) ) rather than that dude who lacks pateince (author of that video you quote) and gursikhi in him.. i was sitting infront of his lecture in darbar.. his stupid jokes on bhramins made me sickening .. he made it sound like bramin were evil human beings.. when he ignore the fact.. it was bhramin in delhis who saved loads of sikhs in riots.. i walked off without giving him any donations for the project.. yea yea call me rss..lol

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

I'm sorry for using Gurbani for debating, (maha moorakh mann)I am done with this post as this subject always gets huge. I think we should just be secure in our sikhi and let these RSS waale have their two minutes of fame, waaheguru kirpa naal most people will turn a deaf ear towards their propaganda. However from the looks of akaal's posts some of our people have fallen into their trap. I have only begun to do darshan of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji a little while back and I ahve learned so much which contradicts almost every major "pillar" of hinduism, so when I hear peopel like akaal it amazes me and I wonder in the words of bhai Sukhpreet Singh Udhoke, "either these people have not read Sri guru granth sahib Ji or they have not read the hindu texts,, vedas, puraanas, shashtraas..."

peace.

[Guest Akaal108]

you wanna beat rss.. beat them with their own tools... as nirmaley (sikh order) are beating them when they come across with them...!

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

"i walked off without giving him any donations for the project"

ok buddy the panth is grateful to you. From your post I have realized what a waist of time these arguements are.

wow. whew, sikh unity, forget about it....

[Guest Akaal108]

"i walked off without giving him any donations for the project"

ok buddy the panth is grateful to you.  From your post I have realized what a waist of time these arguements are. 

wow.  whew, sikh unity, forget about it....

97742[/snapback]

sowwie i don't contribute to fanatics/bigotories who had soo much hatred for others.

Sikh teaches tolerance, harmony, love between each other not evil this banda, evil bhramins, evil this dharm.. phalna phalna.

[Bijla Singh]

now you take complete U turn and bought sants into this discussion and start cussing them.. i can realize your frustration man..lol

I did not cuss any sants nor I am frustrated. It is YOU who always bring in sants. your whole reasoning is based on them. "sant ji did this, did that therefore never wrong" but tell me who quoted Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji first? As stated earlier I respect him very much but as my elder brother. I will not follow anyone blindly. Like Bhai Randhir Singh Ji said "I will weigh everything on Gurbani kasvatti before believing in it."

easy up on your kattar behaviour then we will talk again...take a chill pill.

define kattar? if kattar means not following everything blindly then yes that's who I am.

by the way if you got so much garmi against sants why you got sant jarnail singh bhindranwaley as your avtar...stop giving wrong impression to people..true you is visible.. it's fun to debate with katar panthis.. just gotta finger them a little (not literal way ) they get all hot heads.

You don't even know me. When you have no proofs from Gurbani you found a way to attack me personally. just great. I gave you something to think about. Which sant was not amritdhari? Sikhi is internal and external both. the fact of the matter is that behind your plain words you are truly frustrated since you have no way to prove your point from Gurbani viewpoint. rather you are using respect gursikhs.

Regarding Bhagats. They all had merged with Waheguru Jot Nanak. But this is a fact that had Guru Ji not included their Bani in Granth Sahib Ji, no one would've remembered them by now. they did not even have an equal status in the society but Guru Ji realizing their true love for Waheguru, gave them an equal status to Gurbani. This in no way proves that Sikhs are supposed to go lay in the way of some human and make him their Guru to get naam. Guru Ji started a simpler and unique way. Old ways are long gone. What works now is the way of Guru Ji. human guruship has no significance. but remind me again how this is related to Sikhi being reformed from hinduism. as far as I know all these bhagats were NOT Hindus.

1. Ansa Avtar- is the avtar taken by rightious kings.

2. Aveshya Avtar - this is avtars with spiritual powers

3. Kala Avtar - this is avtars with extrodinary powers usually 14 or 16 powers

4. Nit Avtar - This is the Avtar taken by Sants and Mahatmas.

5. Namit Avtar - This is where God comes to earth for a short time and does not take birth then dissappears following what work needed to be done. Examples of this are Narsingh and the future avtar of Kalki

6. Pooran Avtar - This is the most powerful Avtar of God before guru Nanak Dev Ji. It was a form which contained almost all powers. Examples of this are Ram and Krishan

Everyone is created equally. Everyone has the same goal which is to reach Waheguru. People are different only in avasthas which comes from the path they follow. and according to hinduism rama and krishna were not pooran avtar. rama was 14 kala and krishna was 16 kala. just by looking at their jeevan even a child can tell you if they were avtars or not. Gurbani rejects their authority. not an iota respect is given to them in Sikhi. if avtar has some other meanings in Gurbani then prove it.

Guru's were enlightened individuals..they were not shamed about their lineage ...siri guroo gobind singh ji mentioned luv and kush in dasam guroo granth... read it carefully...!

again, what significance does it have in Sikhi way of life? how does it prove your main point of Sikhi being reformed from "original hinduism"?

use Gurbani to prove your point otherwise you are a waste of time. just because one gursikh did something doesn't mean everybody has to do it. We have to follow Gurbani not gursikhs. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[Guest Akaal108]

when did i say sikhi reformed "from" hinduism??

I said:

Even though sikh is separate dharam.. i still think that from spiritual point of view sikh "has" reformed hinduism in many ways. ie- briging the orginal hindu dharam(upasana of nirankar= Pooja Akaal Ki) instead of doing cluless rituals/baseless morti pooja.

can't you find difference between your claim and my claim?

Regarding avtars- why don't you put down your own ego for a second and listen to japji sahib katha by gyani thakur singh ji had to say .. i got you reference - it's japji sahib - 2nd or 3rd file.

Regarding Bhagats. They all had merged with Waheguru Jot Nanak. But this is a fact that had Guru Ji not included their Bani in Granth Sahib Ji, no one would've remembered them by now. they did not even have an equal status in the society but Guru Ji realizing their true love for Waheguru, gave them an equal status to Gurbani. This in no way proves that Sikhs are supposed to go lay in the way of some human and make him their Guru to get naam. Guru Ji started a simpler and unique way. Old ways are long gone. What works now is the way of Guru Ji. human guruship has no significance. but remind me again how this is related to Sikhi being reformed from hinduism. as far as I know all these bhagats were NOT Hindus.

ok answer simple question. Bhagats that are included in bani would you give them sikh/gurmukh status yes or no?

If yes then i proved that sikhi existed before siri guroo nanak dev ji..if no then i rest my case.. i back myself from debate.. i don't like goin in circles.

Gurmat was created by our Guru's but it's not higher than whatever mat these bhagats in siri guroo granth sahib followed . proof- you got their gurbani in our siri guroo granth sahib ji..every day we maith taik to siri guroo granth sahib which has their teachings their anubhav in them... they are equal..learn to accept that.

Also you said all the bhagats were not hindu's .. yeah they may have rejected the few dodgy practices in hinduism but most of bhagats mentioned above still had full faith in their holy books and vishnu ji which lead to have faith in nirankar just like in sikhism. how sikhs first have faith in guru sahib;s which develops faith in nirankar.

in this debate you manage to slander raja janak(who was given gurmukh title by bhai sahib gurdas ji) and you slander him because some of the practices that does not make sense to you. and you are saying how you are katar.??

and bijla singh

you forgot to comment on these :e:

you are stuck at negative things but you forgot to mention:

When siri guroo granth sahib ji says:

"Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false".

and

in anand sahib it says that the vedas contain naam, but those that are impure within do not hear it & wander aimlessly.

[Guest JSS]

k this debate was too long to read...

i'm sure both sides had thought out responses...

personally...i'm not sure what i believe on this issue...but then again...i don't really think about it...still trying to be a good sikh...whatever that may be...hhhehe...

but jus wanted to say...let's be careful when we talk about people like shiva ji, krishan ji, vishnu...and raja janak...

i don't believe anyone holds a candle to our beloved guru sahib jis, and they aren't waheguru...but none the less...i do believe these were great people who did way more bhagti than any of us.. ( or at least me)..and did their seva as given to them by akal purkh...if they made mistakes that is for their boss (waheguru) to let them know...i'm sure there are many good things we could learn from these guys too...i'm not saying we become their chelas and abandon gurmat...never that....but if there is a lesson that we can learn from a story of krishan ji or someone else...then why not take that and apply that in our life???

and even the stories of how they messed up at times...those stories teach us all lessons too...let's not forget that...if they forgot waheguru and got egotistical and made mistakes...there's a lesson in that too...why else would guru ji write about them...to show us not to make the same mistakes...if great bhagats like them could make mistakes, just think about the mistakes that we could make as people starting out on the path of gurmat..as people who are just beginning our bhagti??

and i've always been taught that if someone teaches you something maintain a level of respect for that person...even if it was their mistakes that teaches us a lesson...cuz if you think about it...aren't we lucky that they made mistakes and we get to learn from their experiences..instead of going through all the experiences of messing up totally and then learning the hard way??...

wow..that got longer than i expected...anyhow hope it helps...

ps...advice for veers and bhens...please don't do nindia of raja janak ji..you would be screwing yoursself over...cuz..he is called a gurmukh in bhai gurdas ji's vaars..in fact he is referred to as maya vich udasi....the ideal gurmukh...cuz even after being a rajaa...living among all this wealth (maya) he was an udasi (from the heart..being detached from this maya..and being absorbed with waheguru)