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life after death


cyb3r_wolf
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Okay...its very obvious you have little knowledge about Sikhism, most importantly about Spirituality...or shall we say...the universal search for human identity with the search for meaning and purpose in life and for values by which to live :umm:

I already pointed out in my earlier post that your solutions revolve around the discoveries of Science, and scientific facts..

Science is the search for the truth.
As I already pointed out, science is not the search for truth, I provided the definition of spirituality above if you didn't notice, NOT SCIENCE!
Well lust and anger are so indulged into humans, that most people don't even see it their whole lives. Sure they were part of our existence for many years, but was there a solution as to what needs to be done to these vices?

Why do you need a solution for lus

t? Why is it a vice?

Kaam (LUST), Krodh (ANGER), lobh (GREED), moh (WORLDLY ATTACHMENT), hankar (EGO), are the 5 vices as said by our Gurus. These overpower the human being 24/7. I'm sure you contain most if not all of these 'vices'. Its a vice because it binds us to the world, and it binds us to our minds. What we think/feel/do revolve around these vices. You can experiment this, its a proven fact.

For higher living, i.e. wanting to reach that state of consciousness/oneness with God, one must control these vices in our mind. These vices can be controlled through simran (absolute meditation), sewa (selfless service), gurbani (reciting the word of our gurus). Its a matter of faith, one can only speak for him/herself if this works or not. Without trying something you are blind to it.

How do these so called texts/scriptures reveal anything? They are all conjecture. With out actually empirical proof you have nothing. I can sit down and write a religious text saying anything I want, that doesn't make it true.

Sad :umm:

Again my point is proven, that you revolve your statements around science. Since you don't beleive in the level of conciousness of a person, i.e. spirituality level. Ok, first of all ordinary people like you and I can't make these scriptures/holy books. There is a significance behind these types of literature, that's why they are given the status of a holy book, or a unique scripture, what ordinary people write is mere words and sentences, which may have some s

ignificance to it, and it ends at our thinking level.

Our 10 Gurus, Prophets from other faiths, Bhagats, Saints, are not on the same thinking level as us, so how can you even begin to compare these men of God to a normal person? Truly sad!

You want proof with everything (methodoly of science), rolleyes.gif now...........if you got proof for all the unknown things wouldn't life be much easier? The truth is knowing the truth.

I'm not critisizing, you are entitled to your opinion, BUT there's a fine line between searching for the truth for yourself through the teachings of the true Guru and having the "want to know it all w/ proof" attitude.

All I have to say is that you're blind to the truth. Millions of people come and go in this quest for the truth with proof, and evidence, but they don't realize that the truth lies within.

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Goodness gracious me.. scientific discovery.. go see discovery channel then... tongue.gif wuts with all this scientific discovery thingy here.. ive seen on discovery channel (scientifically proven) that human has different hundred and thousands form of animal genetics in us.. :umm: tsk tsk.. reincarnation tongue.gif

i saw it like last year and it was also mentioned in our annual samelan ... so im pretty sure i wasnt the only one who saw it :umm:

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I know not to reply to your quotes, because I already know the type of answer I will receive.

As for coming to the conclusion of following the word of the true guru.......

Guru is my teacher, he is my father, he is my mother, he is my friend, I'm in tuned with every action/word of my Guru, I need no knowledge about my Guru, neither do I need to contemplate/ponder over his thoughts. I am a sacrifice to the true Guru.

Here's my Guru's answer to your questions (today's hukam):

SORAT’H, FIFTH MEHL, FIRST HOUSE, ASHTAPADEES:

ONE UNIVERSAL CREATOR GOD. BY THE GRACE OF THE TRUE GURU:

The One who created the whole world, O Siblings of Destiny, is the Almighty Lord, the Cause of causes. He fashioned the soul and the body, O Siblings of Destiny, by His own power. How can He be described? How can He be seen, O Siblings of Destiny? The Creator is One; He is indescribable. Praise the Guru, the Lord of the Universe, O Siblings of Destiny; through Him, the essence is known. || 1 || O my mind, meditate on the Lord, the Lord God. He blesses His servant with the gift of the Naam; He is the Destroyer of pain and suffering. || Pause || Everything is in His home, O Siblings of Destiny; His warehouse is overflowing with the nine treasures. His worth cannot be estimated, O Siblings of Destiny; He is lofty, inaccessible and infinite. He cherishes all beings and creatures, O Siblings of Destiny; he continually takes care of them. So meet with the Perfect True Guru, O Siblings of Destiny, and merge in the Word of the Shabad. || 2 || Adoring the feet of the True Guru, O Siblings of Destiny, dou

bt and fear are dispelled. Joining the Society of the Saints, cleanse your mind, O Siblings of Destiny, and dwell in the Name of the Lord. The darkness of ignorance shall be dispelled, O Siblings of Destiny, and the lotus of your heart shall blossom forth. By the Guru’s Word, peace wells up, O Siblings of Destiny; all fruits are with the True Guru. || 3 || Give up your sense of mine and yours, O Siblings of Destiny, and become the dust of the feet of all. In each and every heart, God is contained, O Siblings of Destiny; He sees, and hears, and is ever-present with us. On that day when one forgets the Supreme Lord God, O Siblings of Destiny, on that day, one ought to die crying out in pain. He is the all-powerful Cause of Causes, O Siblings of Destiny; he is totally filled with all powers. || 4 || The Love of the Name is the greatest treasure, O Siblings of Destiny; through it, emotional attachment to Maya is dispelled. If it is pleasing to His Will, then He unites us in His Union, O Siblings of Destiny; the Naam, the Name of the Lord, comes to abide in the mind. The heart-lotus of the Gurmukh blossoms forth, O Siblings of Destiny, and the heart is illumined. The Glory of God has been revealed, O Siblings of Destiny, and the earth and sky have blossomed forth. || 5 || The Perfect Guru has blessed me with contentment, O Siblings of Destiny; day and night, I remain attached to the Lord’s Love. My tongue continually chants the Lord’s Name, O Siblings of Destiny; this is the true taste, and the object of human life. Listening with my ears, I hear and so I live, O Siblings of Destiny; I have obtained the unchanging, unmoving state. That soul,which does not place its faith in the Lord shall burn, O Siblings of Destiny. || 6 || My Lord and Master has so many virtues, O Siblings of Destiny; I am a sacrifice to Him. He nurtures even the most worthless, O Siblings of Destiny, and gives home to the homeless. He gives us nourishment with each and

every breath, O Siblings of Destiny; His Name is everlasting. One who meets with the True Guru, O Siblings of Destiny, does so only by perfect destiny. || 7 || Without Him, I cannot live, even for an instant, O Siblings of Destiny; He is totally filled with all powers. With every breath and morsel of food, I will not forget Him, O Siblings of Destiny; I behold Him ever-present. In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, I meet Him, O Siblings of Destiny; He is totally pervading and permeating everywhere. Those who do not embrace love for the Lord, O Siblings of Destiny, always die crying out in pain. || 8 || Grasping hold of the hem of His robe, O Siblings of Destiny, we are carried across the world-ocean of fear and pain. By His Glance of Grace, He has blessed us, O Siblings of Destiny; He shall be with us until the very end. My mind and body are soothed and calmed, O Siblings of Destiny, nourished by the food of the Naam. Nanak has entered His Sanctuary, O Siblings of Destiny; the Lord is the Destroyer of sins. || 9 || 1 ||

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R. Dorothy Wayneright said:

Ohhh, sorry I guess that came out wrong. We _do know_ what happens to the body physically after death, but "spiritually" we don't know because we don't even know if "spirit" exists."
You are so condescending.

Physical proof of the non-physical is a bit of a problem you see.That is why we have skeptics like you.It is good we have skeptics like you.As for the existence of spirit, well there is no equivalent word in Sikhi, except maybe Atma (Pure Concsciousness) and jivatma (psyche/soul)?Psyche exists, and I know Pure Consciousness exists, I have "experienced" it in meditation on Vahiguru.I think spirit refers to Pure Consciousness?So spirit exists,if that is what spirit means.There is also, Supra-Consciousness (Param-Atma), which is experienced in meditation on Vahiguru.

The Reality of continued existence after bodily death is not made up as you say, it is and has been known about for millenia.

By who? Present your evidence. Scientific fact,

not conjecture (ie. no religious dogma).

There is no physical evidence.Reality is to be experienced by you alone, you cannot experience what another is experiencing.

Yes, these "Near Death Experiences" that _can't be reproduced_. What? I am just supposed to take someone's word that they had a "near death experience" or reached a high plane of existence without proof?"
No, you don't need to believe in anothers experience.This is only something that you alone can experience.The proof can only be found on your own.If you are unwilling to find that proof on your own by meditation, that is your loss.
If I told you I can make Au out of Al would you believe me? No, you would tell me to show you proof. If you want me to believe in these "near death experiences," you will have to show me some reproducible proof just like I would have to show you some reproducible proof of my claims.

If you told me that you can make gold out of aluminium, I would say: "Great, you must be a great scientist, I'd love to know how you did it."You've got me wrong, I don't want you to believe in anything, my dear.I believe because I have personal experience of the Divine.You don't believe because, maybe you don't wish have experience of the Divine aspect of your being.Am I wrong?Please tell me if I am.Do you wish to know of your real Self?The Self that exists while you're in deep sleep, whilst th

e self you identify with in waking state is non-exisitent. :T:

Do you exist when you're in deep sleep?Is your self not non-existent?

How about giving me some evidence of these planes of existence please please? How about you let someone (a sceptic or a non-believer) tag along and show them these high planes of existence?
Like I said before, you cannot experience the experiences of others.So there is no physical evidence.If this is unsatisfactory, then it is unsatisfactory.
So you are saying we haven't existed on earth for millions of years?

As far as I know, Homo Sapiens hasn't existed for millions of years.Am I wrong?

Now, you have posed a lot of unoriginal questions from a skeptics point of view.You require evidence, physical evidence of Realities, which are invisible and non-material.I will pose a few questions to you:

1. Does the electron exist?If I say it doesn't can you show me PHYSICAL, TANGIBLE evidence that it does exist?

2. Do you exist?Can you show me that your self exists.How do I know that your consciousness exists?Can you show me physical, tangible evidence of your existence?If I see you, I only see an image of you.If I touch you I only experience what my brain WANTS me to experience.The brain is a very clever device, it sees only what it whats to see.You know that do

n't you?Who is the seer?

The brain is made up of atoms and sub-atomic particles right?And what are these atomic particles made of?Energy, right?What is energy?Energy doesn't have physical, tangible existence does it?You can only see the effects of energy, but not energy itself?

They say: "Perception is reality".Do you think this statement is true?What you perceive, is it Reality?They say that what you perceive is not wholly real, that your brain fills in gaps of perception.You perceive what your brain wants you to perceive.

Instead of questioning Sikhi, why dont' you try questioning your self.Why it is the way you are.

Are we just a collection of habits, daily thought routines - subliminal activators?The Truth can be found within you, you just have to make the effort.Ofcourse, you don't need to.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What exactly is your agenda in coming onto these Sikh forums?

Do you wish to learn about Sikhi?Or do you wish to criticise and bash it?

Let me bring this quote to your attention; you said:

Science is the search for the truth.

Do you believe science is the only legitimate search for truth?

Also you seem to criticise why we follow our Dharam.Do you know the main reason why we, the Sikh of Satguru follow in His path?

It is because we owe it to our ancestors who were tortured and killed for not converting to Islam.Children were disembowelled infront of their mothers, thrown into the air onto spears.Many of our ancestors endured such horrors.We owe it to them.

Now, you come along and start to demean our beliefs and practices.You are doing our ancestor

s be-izzati (disrespect).

If you don't like us and Sikhi, why don't you just let us be, and stop giving us a headache? :umm: :umm: :D

Are you not proselytizing your views on science?Just like Christians and Muslims.

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Well I am willing to hear your argument why it isn't good. I am open minded and willing to change my opinion. Just prove to me with logic and reason that lust is a bad thing. That isn't too much to ask is it?

You try hard to act smart but you are obvisouly not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

You want to know why lust is bad? Rape, broken marraiges.....I can go on

I do not want to waste any time on you sinc eI think you are only here to amuse yourself at the expense of others. In my reality you don't exist anymore. B)

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Don't you think that god, if he exists, would be much more pleased with someone that actually came to these conclusions themselves using her mind rather than someone the begrudgingly accepted them for fear of repercussions? Think about that one for a while.

Dorothy, Sikhi is not like other religions. Sikhi says to worship in fear is not real worship its useless. Sikhi is about LOVE for god. We are not scared of hellfires or demons or the devil or what have you. Sikhi is about loving god as you would love your spouse, your children, your father.

If we live our whole lives in fear of going to hell or having bad karma etc, what kind of life is that? if we are so scared of doing something against our religion that we live some strange life like we are in a jail. NO WAY!! sikhi is about how much love you have for god and how far you are willing to go to show that love.

also.. on a scientific note. Guru Nanak dev jee said that the earth is round, their are millions of planets like earth, earth is in a solar system, there are thousands of solar systems, thousands of galaxies actually he said countless etc.. but the point is.. this was 300 years before a galileo or the telescope, how did guru nanak dev jee know this? there is countless scientific proof in guru granth sahib, how can there not be? its the universal holy book in that every religion can agree with its text.

AND u are saying we dont think the bible i

s holy? Guru Gobind Singh Jee our tenth guru said that "Some think other books are false, but those who do not contemplate the vedas, purans, bible, and koran are false."

sister if you have any more questions about sikhi, please ask me and i will answer to the best of my humble knowledge.

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Take me for example. I believe in working hard and working honesty. I also believe that we should share our wealth and give back to the community. I beleve we should work to better all of mankind. If I am not mistaken these are the core tenants your first guru set out correct?
Yes, that is gurmat, or gurus teachings, but that is not all of it. Sikhi is also about worship to get closer to god. Meditating on his name, as you would with someone you love. (how can i word this.. like a junior high crush, where u keep writing ur crushes name with little hearts etc..) this is the only way to get closer to god and be released from the cycles of births and deaths, u may not necessarily see it as a bad thing, budhists keep going through these cycles and rather enjoy it, but sikhs seek to become a part of the almighty himself.
So let me ask you, am I bound to be punished? From what I gather on this board, people say their are many levels of hell that nonbelievers go through before they come back.

Now let me ask again, would I, something that works honesty, works hard, gives back sizable amounts of her wealth to charity, and strives for political and equality (women's rights) go to hell?

If so, why? Because I fail to do

a technical thing such a keep my hair? Because I enjoy getting laid? If your god is a benevolent god don't you think he would look at the content of my character and see that I have lived my life with the goal to better mankind over small things such as cutting my hair or activities I find pleasurable?

I am genuinely curious as to why I would be made to suffer when I have worked my entire life to better my fellow humans condition.

Yes and no.. there is no "hell" persay.. but there are rebirths. say you love having sex, u might be born a rabbit in ur next life and have lots of sex, and lots of children, or maybe a prostitute. in other words, you reap what u sew. If you love money, our guru says you will be reborn as a serpeant, why? because u probably were already a snake with ur money as a human.

so while u are a good person, u will enjoy the benifit of this in lives to come, but ur flaws, u will also dislike the repurcutions of it. I think its a fair system.

And I like ur attitude of seva (selfless service) u have many qualities of a good sikh in you, but also do lack some things that would make u a sikh. I am happy u are willing to learn, but I hope u do not think i want to convert u. I am only replying for my benefit and the benefit of other board members and to see what we can gain or learn from you. I have no will, interest, nor desire to convert you or anyone else, i prefer to keep sikhi to myself and be happy.

I do not see the things you do (such as having sex or cutting ur hair) as pleasure. In fact our gurus tell us this is pain. its just temporary pleasure. What have you accomplished once your orgasm is over? is this true happiness? isnt there something more than doing gross acts with someones genitals and trading ur fluids? dont u find that gross? true bliss is eternal bliss which u experience every day and every night for eternity. that bliss only comes with naam simran/meditation.


>perhaps u have not looked hard enough, or experienced true religion or true spirituality, and u gave up too soon? dont sell urself short.

also.. on a scientific note. Guru Nanak dev jee said that the earth is round, their are millions of planets like earth, earth is in a solar system, there are thousands of solar systems, thousands of galaxies actually he said countless etc.. but the point is.. this was 300 years before a galileo or the telescope, how did guru nanak dev jee know this?

Actually the Earth being round was known about before Guru Nanak. The Earths circumference was actually calculated around late 200BC:

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?lastno...&node_id=899689

But this raises another issue that very much pains me. I love your first Guru and I terribly hate how Sikhs have ignored his actions and turned their backs on them. Guru Nanak said that the Earth was round correct? So he obviously didn't just accept what was being told to him. He questioned authority and questioned the "truth" that was being presented to him. Why have Sikhs turned their backs on that? Isn't a Sikh a student? Someone that is always learning? So why stop that learning?

I was not aware of that. I was aware there was a theory, but nobody really beleived it till galileo, except our gurus who did beleive it. What about the sun? solar systems, galaxies, universes, life on other plane

ts. nobody thought of this before the gurus. There really isnt a point to proving to u whether our gurus were scientifically valid or not, what is that going to bring me?

as for sikhs not learning, when did we stop learning? what makes u think we have. if the gurus revealed the true path to us already, what more is there to learn? about this maya (illusion) called the universe? yes many sikhs are doctors and scientists, so in that aspect a lot of sikhs do keep learning, i myself am a college student and am getting nowhere because i take useless classes to keep learning new stuff about things that have nothing to do with my degree.

--your little brother

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