Question

[premkranti]

live together.Have celebrations.But dont make a instutution of your life together.Dont make it a bondage and create a feeling that you have to be together just because of social pressures etc.That is not real love.

Love is wild.Marriage is not love but a social necessity.There is nothing holy in it but just a hypocracy propoganda by elders and social agents.

You can enjoy and attend other's marriages but think sometime of those poor fellows as well.Love is moment to moment and can not be aranged or predicted.

with regards

[humble_kaur]

There were Gurus even in Sikh history who were living with more than one woman.

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Can you provide proof of this? If you are referring to Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, then you are mistaken. Guru Ji had an engagment and a wedding, hence two big functions. People distorted history by saying Guru Ji had two wifes, when in fact it was just one. They were mistaken because they veiwed these two functions as two different weddings. They were also led to believe this because of the two names, Mata Sundari Ji and Mata Jeeto Ji. It was one person, her name before wedding was Mata Jeeto Ji and after wedding she was known as Mata Sundari Ji. Some say he had a third wife, Mata Sahib Kaur Ji. Whereas Guru Ji was the spiritual father of khalsa, Mata Sahib Kaur Ji became recognized as the spiritual mother of khalsa. All these assumptions are because of our ignorance towards our culture. We take everything written as face value.

His father forcefully married him.When he was not awakened,he had sons.But once he was awakened,he never visisted his wife.He condemned the custom of marriages.

Can you please reference this for me. Or provide me with where you have read this, or are you just assuming that this is what happened to Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Remember, not everything you read is credible these days, many facts, sakhiyans have been distorted. Frankly, this is the first time I have heard of such a thing! If Guru Ji condemned the custom of marriages, then why would any of the other Gurus get married? Would they go against what Guru Nanak Dev Ji condemned, go against Gurbani? Is that why we are told to live a Grehsti Jeevan by our Gurus?

You say marraige is a social necessity. Well I beg to differ. Marriage is not just the joining of two physical entities, but it is a union of two minds and more importantly the joining of two souls. Hence, after marriage you become one mind, one soul. We, together, then strive to merge our souls with God. The couple lives a Grehsti Jeevan, follow the path of Gurmat, to love and live a truthful life.

I don't believe it is wrong to deeply care for someone. Moh is attachment to someone, and kaam is lust towards someone. I don't believe either of the two can be defined as love. You can love and appreciate someone without being attached to them or have lust for them.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

[Jai Tegang!]

diseases like AIDS owe their origin and expansion to the thinking that premkranti is trying to propagate.

premkranti, dress it up with all the flowery language, you're supporting free-sex which no sane man with an iota of morality will accept.

sorry, we follow Gurmat, not osho.

[Kharkoo4Life]

Another sugegstion,If you love somebody,Never marry her/him.Marriage destroys everything.Marriage is like closing a rose flower in a plastic.It will die.All love's die with marriage soon after.

Fateh,

Bro it appears you do not have very deep understanding of gurmat. To claim that all love dies with marriage are you implying that the love of Guru Nanak, Angad, Arjan, or Guru Gobind Singh for their respective wives became weaker or died out once they became married? Marriage in fact strengthen ones love for they are openly acknowledging and giving an oath of commitment and support to the other person thru thick and thin. This marriage my friend, is a celebration of love not a declaration of anti-love.

Nanak condemned marriages in 'Koor Mian Koor Biwi'.His father forcefully married him.When he was not awakened,he had sons.But once he was awakened,he never visisted his wife.He condemned the custom of marriages.He was for real love between man and woman as like 'Ek Jote Dui Moorti'.There were Gurus even in Sikh history who were living with more than one woman.There was no marriages or single family homes for them and they were living collectively in hundred of people around.But the society at that time was very primitive and woman was very much repressed and marriage was the necessiry for woman's economic welfare.But this was a necessary evil.We have to move further now.

My friend, u fail to understand gurbani and making the elementary mistake of trying to grasp gurabni on literal terms

That same shabad begins with:

kUVu rwjw kUVu prjw kUVu sBu sMswru ]

False is the king, false are the subjects; false is the whole world.

So if this world is false, then by ur logic we shud reject it and abandon it as well. But that is not what the guru is tryin to teach us. The guru is talkin here about how man becomes overly attached to worldy life and forgets about the Creator of this world. In the rest of the shabad Guru Nanak goes on to give some specific examples of things we get attached to in this world to help drive this point home.

kUVu kwieAw kUVu kpVu kUVu rUpu Apwru ]

False is the body, false are the clothes; false is incomparable beauty.

kUVu mIAw kUVu bIbI Kip hoey Kwru ]

False is the husband, false is the wife; they mourn and waste away.

The body is mentioned being false as well so shud be abandon it n kill ourselves? CLothes are said to be false so shud we also reject them and walk around naked? Similarly he goes on to mention the relationships in our lives of husband and wife. The Guru is not telling us to reject any of these. He merely wants us to remember that as important as all these are, the most important thing in this world is to remember and love God. Instead of doint that, what we do is become overly attached to the things (relationships) of this world and forget god.

kUiV kUVY nyhu lgw ivsirAw krqwru ]

The false ones love falsehood, and forget their Creator.

SO the key is to remember God. When one keeps God in mind, and that He exists ineverything then those same things are no longer false for the man does not become attached to them, but rather appreciates them as gifts of the Lord and that these gifts are not permanent and can be taken away anytime. The only thing eternal is GOd so the person focuses his mind on Him. Thus in the last line of that shabad Guru Nanak says:

nwnku vKwxY bynqI quDu bwJu kUVo kUVu ]1]

Nanak speaks this prayer: without You, Lord, everything is totally false

Nanaks says that WITHOUT THE LORD everything is false, not that everything is false initself. If we have the lord in our mind then everythin becomes true for they now realize the true purpose of each thing. That is why the gurus lived everyday family lives to prove this point and said that one does not have to reject and abandon all this like the yogis and sadhus used to do.

His father forcefully married him.When he was not awakened,he had sons.But once he was awakened,he never visisted his wife.He condemned the custom of marriages

No offense, but this reasoning is absolutely absurd. You say Nanak was not yet awakened, well do u also know that Guru Nanak was only 11/12 when he opnely regected the janaioo and its ideologies? Would somone with such a deep understandning of the socio-political evils of well established religious rituals be so naive and shortsighted to not be able to see that a mariage is pointless (as u suggest it is)?

NO GURU WAS EVER FORCED TO DO ANYTHING. They were completely independant in their thinking and not influencable by the pressures or whims of society. No one cud force Guru Nanak to wear the janaioo so hwo cud they force him into marriage? He wasnt afraid to challenge all the pandits/brahmins as a young teenager so why wud he be afraid to challenge his father about marriage if it was wrong? In so many other instances he said no, i disagree with u father so whydo u feel the need to make him so weak on this subject?

And as u may recall, after completing his chaar udaashis (trips) GUru Nanak returned in his final years to live WITH HIS FAMILY, which includes wife. He proved to society that no man should abandon his familial respnsobilities. That man can still attain realization of God while living amidst his family.

There were Gurus even in Sikh history who were living with more than one woman.There was no marriages or single family homes for them and they were living collectively in hundred of people around.But the society at that time was very primitive and woman was very much repressed and marriage was the necessiry for woman's economic welfare.But this was a necessary evil.We have to move further now.

Again, i do not know who has fed u this false information but you are gravely mistaken on all points here. No guru lived with more than one women. The stories of Guru Gobind SIngh and mulitple wives is false. Do u think men of such high noble virtues and morals would condone polygamy? That is completley absurd! And they did not live in single homes cuz the gurus traveleld spreading their message. THey did not jus live in a single house n keep their message of truth locked up there, but rather openly spread there message all around. As well the cirumstances of that time required the Sikhs always be on the move for the ruling powers would hunt and kill sikhs at will.

Further to say society was veyr primitive at that time, are you saying the Gurus were also very primitive? Or was their thinking primitive? Do u think we are more knowledgable and enlightened than the GUrus today?

And NO EVIL IS NECESSARY. Why would the gurus condone something that is wrong jus for momentary gain? The gurus never gave in to any outside pressures such that they were wiling to sacrifice their entire families for the cause of Truth, yet for some reason u think for the simple idea of marriage they felt pressured and said ok cuz they had no choice?

My friend, u need to rise above these false myths and notions you have been taught or read. The Gurus were perfect being in every sense. Every action of theirs was perfect and beyond any mistake. It was beyond any outside societal pressure. Their actiosn were based solely on love for God and abiding by the Hukam of God. IF the Hukam of God was against marriage then why would the Gurus accept marriage? So i suggest perhaps you spend some more time understanding gurbani. You are ready to accept outside logic and interpretations of Sikhi and the GUrus so why not actually try to accept the logic of Gurbani itself!

[Sinister]

To Jai tenang,

"diseases like AIDS owe their origin and expansion to the thinking that premkranti is trying to propagate."

????????????????do you even know what AIDS and HIV is and how its effectively propogated?????????????????????????????

The origin of AIDS came from a similiar strains in primates

HOW?

because of extensive vaccine production in primates (live virsuses were attenuated in primates then administered to humans as vaccines eg-polio vaccine was attenuated in african monkeys....thus a valid theory of the origins of aids comes into existance).....AIDS did not originate because people started sleeping around.

Dont look down upon the people who have contracted this disease its a very serious matter! from your words you come out as a very arrogant person, even if you practiced monogamy all your life you can still be positive for HIV!

premkranti:

DONT MARRY? theres actually a hormone in the human body that prevents polygamy and promotes monogamy (researchers beleive that our bodies have evolved to adapt a monogamous life veiw, why? --> to help us adapt against an ever increasing amount of sexually transmitted diseases....makes sense!) ........ researchers found out a while back....... its called ADH (antidireutic hormone...it also serves other purposes)

The human is designed for marriage!!!!! pretty interesting and wild theory when i first heard it?

WOW, lol thats a different veiw on life (your a bigger leftist than me...lol), but the advice was kinda irrational. If you like someone, spend time with them get to know them better, build a strong relationship

[Gupt daasan daas]

y most sikhs wud say dont date

becaasue

guru je has instructed all of his sikhs to see everyone as fellow brothers and sisters, and not look at the oppisite sex in any other way

now thiws is obviusly told to avoid sexual desires, which trust me will stray u from the marag of bhagthee

no marrige???

oneof guru jes main message was its good to live in grishtee jeevan, family life

we shud belike lotus, stay in the world full of sin, and at the same time remain pure ourselves

we dont need to run to no jungles

now for those whose PERSONAL choice is not to marry thas ill

but to diss marrige itself is wrong

bhula chuka maf

[premkranti]

I read all above and hopefully try to cover all the answers below.

1.Nowhere Nanak recommended marriage. He was enlightened at the age of 36.All the stories of golden childhood etc are made up by others to prove him a great Messiah and to give a subtle signal to all other human beings that Nanak was special and your are not special so a common man can not think more then being a blind follower. It is a subtle strategy to dominate masses. There was nothing special in Nanak .He was same human seed as you are .If one seed can be a tree,you can be tree too.Nanak had the courage to think beyond the mundane world ,meditate and see the truth first hand.At the age of 36 it happened after all meditations and a silent explosion happened inside Him and that changed him totally.He was a new man.He abandoned all the society.He never entered the village he was born into.He called everybody to come to his new real one HOME and declared that I am not for any so called home now(Even my father’s home).When he visited back the village ,he did not cross the boundary of the village,he just met his mother because mother is another form of God for him and is a natural relation.He showed no attachment for his wife or sons.That should be enough signal for wise people that don’t glorify marriage. marriage is not a natural or God made institution.Man by its social necessity created the institution of marriage. Man by its very nature is polygamy. Love(safely!) as many women or men as you can do.There is nothing wrong in it.It will make you more mature and then even if by mistake you have to marry a woman,you will not marry just for sex or body,you will be able to penetrate further into her soul and can have a authentic love.Hargobid had multiple wives.Teg Bahadur is not the son of his first wife.Proving only one wife of Gobind Singh is a story to defend Guru.Don’t try to change history for your own selfish reasons.In fact change yourself.Don’t change the history of Gurus.Few years back when vising Punjab,I came across a Gurdwara near Purkhali ,Ropar which is made in the memory of a woman who slept with Gobind Singh.She was never a wife of him and loved him immensionaly.Gobind Singh by telepathy senses her love.I was amazed to listen to this history and shocked too.I was told further by the locals that she was also blessed by the holy body of Gobind Singh as well. The woman even had a baby from this love and baby died at the time of birth.My mind was not getting ready to accept this at all.When I talked to local further that why nobody knows it,I was told that no scholar has the guts to talk about it openly and in fact a scholar who tried to write the history on stone in Gurdwara was beaten by some fanatic people.I started thinking further on it and felt that it may be true.If a woman had loved Gobind Singh and Gobind Sing knew that he is meeting the woman only first and last time,no wonder if he had blessed the woman with everything including her desire to be a mother.From where will she would have found a man like Gobind Singh again.Out of compassion ,it might have happened. My respect for Gobind Singh increased even more after listening to this hidden historical fact.I will call somebody in India and put the address of Gurdwara on this thread and will appeal as many people as possible to let this story come out and preserve the great history of this Gurdwara.But I am worried more of those local people.Because if lot of people came to know of the Gurdwara,possibly local people including Gurdwara can be massacred by fanatics .Don’t try to change history according to your own mind.Change your mind according to the reality.

2.Also marriage is not synonyms for love neither it is synonyms for ‘Gristhy jeevan’.I am not saying do not marry.But just giving a signal that don’t try to make it a natural or holy institution and proud of it..It has become ugly now.All women are repressed by father,then brother and then a husband.Marriage is the biggest calamity happended to women.Real love is getting crushed all over to feed women to the institution of marriage. Future is not of marriages or single families. Population growth does not allow it now and neither it is economical and will become more and more severe problem as time passes.Future is of communes where four to five thousand people live together under common kitchen and children are brought up together.Eveybody has to meditate to transcend body and sex and reach to the ultimate conciousness.That is the real purpose of human life.Don’t try to be savious of Sikhi,Guru or Gurmat etc.You are in fact trying to save the interpretations given to the Guru’s words by mediocre and cunning people.Be for truth at any cost .Be ready to lose everything for truth.Just think about your enlightenment not for anything else. Ultimately you have to reach the same space where are Nanak,Gobind Singh,Budhaa ,Jesus etc..Less than that will not work. Don’t die just as a Sikh.Die as Nanak and then you will see you never die. What actually die is not you and then you will taste the great taste of deathlessness. Be deathless. As long as you are under death, you are under Hell. I am not for Sikhi,Gurmat or etc.etc..i am just for you .In fact when you will Know,you will know real meaning of Sikhi,Gumat for the first time.Otherwise all the interpretation of Gurmat are projections of your own mind.You are defending your own mind/ego not Gurmat. When you are defending Guru,In fact you are not defending Guru,You are defending your own perception/knowledge about Guru.It does not reach any Guru.Dont think Nanak or Gobind Singh will be happy at you when you are defending them. They know very well that you are just defending your own egos.

Again meditate and reach to your very core of yourself.Meditation is the golden key for the golden future.Start thinking how to seek the truth yourself.Only then you are a authentic sikh,a authentic seeker or a authentic student.

Again I am not preaching free sex.In fact I don’t mind free sex.Do you think sex should not be free.DO you want to sell it?.Do you want to blackmail women economically and buy their sex for whole life with marriage!.Mariiage is socially approved prostitution. It is ugly.You can live with a woman but never call her your wife.It is her insult.Just live as two friends with freedom and without domination each other.Only then we can get rid of dominating men and nagging wives.I feel like crying when I see small children being brought up in hell like homes when husband/wife are continuously fighting/magging each other.Please for God’s sake,Don’t glorify such ugly insitution.Be rebellious and let we work for goilden future.Only then you deserve to be called ‘Youth’ otherwise you are born ‘old’ and never a youth.

Also again I have sympathy for audience who are living a married life.My only message to them is that I don’t mean to put some guilt in you.But I would definitely let them know that don’t be egoistic that you are doing something great being a husband or wife.This will not help you.Go for meditation and seek yourself.This will make your life happy together.Don’t try to dominate each other.Respect each other’s freedom.Respect each other as a future Nanak.

With a beat on Nagara !

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

Premkranti

You may think what you like about marriage, for you it might be socially approved prostitution, I'm not surprised that a chela of Osho would have such views. But bringing out such bukwas as you did about the women and Guruji and them having a child shows that either you are making up this bukwas, maybe it's a Osho discourse or maybe those 'locals' who told you the story saw what kind of spicy stories you are into and give you one.

Your views about so-called communes raising the children shows that you have brought into the osho mat in totality. So tell me great sage will these thousands of men and women be in married monogamous relationships or will it be osho's free love with everyone sleeping around?

Thankfully you did the small mercy of not blackening the Khalsa name by putting 'Premkranti Singh Khalsa' at the end of you post which was full of Guru Nindya. Maybe you're not lost to Oshoism and maybe there is still a small speck of divine jyot underneath all the darkness of free love, Guru Nindya and Osho worship.

[Jai Tegang!]

premkranti: why are you wastng your time with these long-winded posts?

no one buys it.

[premkranti]

Friends

Purpose here is logical and honest discussion NOT freaking out!.

Be logical and sincere in your discussion. Although i never meant to be personal but at the same time don’t want to be hypocrite as well. I want to see/talk naked truth at any cost. Talk to me directly and don’t unnecessarily pull Osho name in it to ride on the negative propaganda and use that to denounce what i am saying. I love and respect rebellious people wherever and whoever they are. I respect Osho as Gobind Singh and as Nanak.It is only through Osho i could visualize the heights of Nanak and Gobind Singh.

Be humble and not fanatic. See the Budhists!.You will never see a fanatic Buddhist and whole of the world is attracted towards it.Few people of Tibet and a single Dalai lama have impacts all over the world. I think a long interactions of Sikhs with fanatic Islamic fundamentalists has given this ‘fanatic’ disease to Sikhs.Like islam,Sikh religion will also we swallowed by fanatics. All Sikh scholars whom sikh call 'Budhijivi' are nothing but old pundits in turban. All jathedars at akal takhat and all gurdwaras are nobody other than old Mahants in new dresses.Recognize them!!

If anybody has intelligence ,come and say loud with me 'Hey fanatics and kattar sikhs,Get Lost! from sikh religion." Condem all sikh scholars.They are doind the same thing what old pundits were doing.Otherwise sikh religion will get shrunk in itself.It has already got shrunk.And Don’t blame on others.Look into your own fold.The people who look friends of sikh religion are the real enemies of Sikh religion.l am sorry for being unpolite again but to make things clear I will tell you that people like Bikramjit Singh and Tegang represent Aurangzeb not Gobind Singh.But how many people can recognize it? When I use word ‘fanatic’ I really mean people like these.These are curse to Sikhi and I guarantee it because I am born in sikh family and seen it very closely, so can guarantee that not a single sikh can reognize such enemies like Bikram and Tegang.Such people will destroy Sikhi because they are closed and never ready for new and they have made sikhi a backward and fanatic and non-progressive religion.And moreover people people like these are not few but majority.

Again,guys this will be my last posting here.I am not usual readers of any such sites.Somehow some internet search brought me here and i joined and with good and loving intentions replied some postings. Sorry if i hurt somebody's sentiments and in case somebody is sincere and a bit rebellious and humble, be free to write me at prekranti@gmail.com and I promise not to write or respond anything here on this site in all type of audience who will not be able to digest honest,sincere ,new and totally rebellious words.I am for logical discussion and don’t want to respond any arrogant and kattar person.They never discuss logically and get angry very easily and that is never my purpose.

With respect and love and well wishes,

Your brother

PreKranti Singh Khalsa.