Bored At The Gurdwara And Having Ideology Problems

[LifeIsBeautiful]

Hi gurupiyaario,

I am slowly in a bind, I believe in prosperity thinking, that people's acitons can make your ich internally or externally.. Whenever I have been going, I always hear babajis saying that maya is evil, or having money is a bad thing..

And I am just a working class joe, I dont make much, maybe the equivalent of 3 pounds, 7 bucks an hourand my hope is that maybe i'll be able to climb out of being poor. I am just feeling frustrated is how can preachers talk about saying money is bad, when were donating it to them out of our honest labour, I mean for me I dont believe money is bad, its just a means to an end, a better end.

Also, sangat ji I am having a hard time even paying attention to anything other than katha, I like katha and I'll try to get the basis of the stories, even though honestly I can't really relate to anything anymore. Kirtan is hard to listen to, because I dont understand punjabi that well.

Does anyone have any honest advice.

Wjkk wkjf

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

Maya IS a means to an end. It is to get by in the world. Maya is bad if you become engrossed in it and it becomes the primary reason of your existence. Even Guru Gargobind Sahib in a Sakhi has labeled Maya as a "Gujraan" or a means to live out life.

Though by no means perfect and full of errors, read a translation of Gurbani. That will at least guide you and hopefully inspire you towards learning to read in the Gurmukhi alphabet and understand Keertan.

As per relating to life...that is what this forum is for. Any questions, any concerns, any issues, share with the Sangat. The reason for these forumsto be set up was to have the youth interact with, help out and learn from each other. We cannot expect the seniors to help out in that regard because they are of a different time and environment.

[Sinister]

Hello

Yea, I actually started a discussion of class and the importance of maya

If one does not have maya (a longing for money) then what promotes them or gives them initiative to work harder and labor for their money?

My opinion:

Maya to some extent is good! you need it to ensure your survival in a captilistic economy.

My advice:

Dont litsen to preachers.... hahaha....they live in their own little magical world...far from reality.

Care for money...but dont let it consume you (to the extent that it makes you do dishonourable stuff) is the message I beleive our guru's where out to state.

should you be content with what you have?

NO---That inhibits you from developing your skills....you should have a personal drive to perform better and develop your expertise. Being content with what you have inhibits you form working harder and acheiving more.

Now, Im not saying show greed....but always show a longing to become better in your life, and dont be afraid to EXCEPT the the HONEST fruits of your own labor (as long as your money is spent on responsible stuff...not hookers or drugs).

Benjamin Franklin:

Time is money, credit is money, money is of prolific generating nature. Money can beget more money, and its offspring can beget more, and so on. After industry and frugality, nothing contributes more to the raising of a young man in the world than punctuality and justice in all his dealings;

THe most trifling actions that affect a man's credit are to be regarded. The sound of your hammer at five in the morning, or eight at night, makes a man and his creditors.........honorable!

[Jai Tegang!]

one common misconception:

maya is not simply money as we have commonly started presenting in conversational punjabi.

maya is a much more complex idea.

everything visible (all of creation) is transitory, and hence maya.

our bodies are maya....the stars are maya...becasue they are not permanent.

now what isn't maya?

that would be Nirankar Vaheguru (that is a simplification since it is God himself who manifests maya)...not meaning to boggle your mind or anything..

so many times when you hear preachers use the word "maya" they may not actually be refferring to money, but to anything that in a sense distances you from God. hope that helped

[premkranti]

The question is important and honest and so I got temptation for answering it.Hope I will not be misunderstood.

Don’t hate money and no need to carry any guilt.Money is the boold of society and if this blood does not go through you rightly,you are a corpse.If you cling to money and keep it holding and possessing and don’t let it pass through you,you are a sickness and a cause of Cancer to the world.Money has to keep on flowing always like a current and hence it is called Currency.So clinging and possessive attitude of money is unhealthy and hence condemned by awakened ones.But remember using money is appreciatable.More money you use,More happy the God is.More you Hold on money,more God is unhappy.If you have no money today and tomorrow you have billions of dollars and day after tomorrow you have none should not impact your balance of life and only then you are in a blissful state.That is our destiny and purpose of human life.

You don’t have to spend much time resolving this Maya or Money problem in the starting.This is not really a good strating point.Better leave it.The real understating will come automatically when your consciousness takes upward jump. The real purpose of your should be how to grow conciousness.All else will happen automatically. You don’t have to directly approach Maya questions.I am not saying you can not but I am saying there is another part/experiments which should be priority.So some experiments below can be useful:-

1.Don’t listen to any Katha at all.I have seen/listened all kathas all around.Their tone,voice and condemning and negative attitude destroys everything.In fact if ever possible,Katha shouls be banned in all Gurdwaras as it paves the way for huge number of retarded and third class people to pollute innocent people.Whenever any <banned word filter activated> stand up for any Katha,You get out asap before you are polluted.

2.Enjoy Kirtan.It is better you don’t understand Punjabi.In fact that is a plus point.Because if you know punjabi,your mind will immediately go on interpreting everything you hear in Kirtan.So just listen.Listen the tunes of Harmonium.Listen the gaps in Kirtan.Inhale more and more silence in Kiratn.Rememer more silent you become,better you received Kirtan.Kirtan is to make your mind silent.That is why Kirtan is above all.Because any katha gives interpretions to Gurbani and that spoils everything.All katha is ‘Kachhi’ baani or immature language.Never forget this truth.Kirtan should be your way.If possible buy a harmonium and do some singing at home.You don’t have to show to anybody.Just for yours.

3.Try to some Seva in Gurdwara.It is unfortunate that more and more automatic and robotics has spoiled a lot of opportunities of Seva in Gurdwaras but still try to find wherever you could.Try to clean shoes.You will see the miracles of it only after you have done it.

4.Live you life and enjoy whatever money you have.No need to really dream much much.Because even you got billion dollars you are gonna lose the game in end.So many billionaires lived miserable lives.In fact more money makes you more miserable as you expectation grow higher and you don’t get that happiness as you expected from money.Your frustration grows much higher.So middle way is the best way.I am not saying go against money but explaining that either you drop all money a OR you possess all Money of the world,this is not important. Real change happens inside the human being,not outside.So what change I am talking about..That is ‘Awareness’.How much aware you are of yourself,your actions,your conciousness your soul.Who you are.What were you doing in past lives.Where are you going…Detach from this body and Mind.It is not you .Then who you are? To seek that is the real jorney.This is another dimension of science.This is the real juice of all religions of the world.Drink this juice and throw all else.

There is a lot more I can talk about but I think this is enough for the time being and it can open a lot of ways further.

With love

PremKranti Singh Khalsa

[Kharkoo4Life]

I would like to make a few points. As stated before by others and myself, MAYA IS NOT SIMPLY MONEY. Maya is anthing which makes u forget God and focus ur attention elsewhere.

eyh mwieAw ijqu hir ivsrY mohu aupjY Bwau dUjw lwieAw ]

This is Maya, by which the Lord is forgotten; emotional attachment and love of duality well up.

IN essence, this can be anythind and everything if that things is used improperly. (eg. money, material goods, people, power). Each of thse things are not bad in themselves, for they are all here and created by God for out benefit. But the problem arises when we become overlly attached to these things and forget the Kindness of the Bestower of these Gifts and for what purpose he gave them. We begin to use them for our own selfish pleasures and make these gifts the endpiont themselves rather than realizing that they are merely a means to an end. The true endpoint being complete oneness with God. When one realizes that, then they can continue to live, function and prosper amidst these things (maya) wihtout becoming attached to it.

khY nwnku gur prswdI ijnw ilv lwgI iqnI ivcy mwieAw pwieAw ]29]

Says Nanak, by Guru's Grace, those who enshrine love for the Lord find Him, in the midst of Maya.

1.Don’t listen to any Katha at all.I have seen/listened all kathas all around.Their tone,voice and condemning and negative attitude destroys everything.In fact if ever possible,Katha shouls be banned in all Gurdwaras as it paves the way for huge number of retarded and third class people to pollute innocent people.Whenever any <banned word filter activated> stand up for any Katha,You get out asap before you are polluted.

I understand your point and that ur intention is gud however these remarks are completely wrong. You say katha is wrong and shud be banned in all gurdwaras. Well then let me ask you, did Guru Nanak not travel the world sharing his message wherever he went? And he travelled to far off countries where people spoke very different languages so do u think they jus magically understood GUru Nanaks message by telepathy? Obviously Guru Nanak sat down and held open discourse and discussions with these people. Some of the people, as the siddhs n sadhus wre very learned men and would not just suddenly change their views established over centuries, in a heartbeat jus cus someone said they shud. They changed only after guru nanak EXPLAINED to them teh truth. ABout how all the mindless rituals they were busy doing were pointless and that the real way to realize god was to sing His praises (not only by word and song but by thru ones daily actions in life). If you contest the need for katha one merely has to read the Sidh Gosth compoisiton in Guru Granth Sahib for it is full of nothin but examples of the open dicussion the sidhs had with Guru Nanak and his replies (katha) to them.

2.Enjoy Kirtan.It is better you don’t understand Punjabi.In fact that is a plus point.Because if you know punjabi,your mind will immediately go on interpreting everything you hear in Kirtan.

Again brother, i think you are missing the point here. If it is better that one not understand punjabi why did Guru Angad formalize a whole new script/language for gurbani? Did he just do that for fun or for musical purposes alone? NO. He did it because he wanted every person, even the average simpleminded people to TO BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND the message of truth. No one was allowed or able to read sanskrit and it was a very hard language even if one tried. So to overcome this barrier they encouraged and themselves promoted the use of a simple common language for all to understand their message.

Furthermore, the importance of understanding punjabi/gurmukhi is highlighted by the SIkh Rehit Maryada as well. For what use is it reading a book if one does not understand what they are reading.

pMifq vwcih poQIAw nw bUJih vIcwru ]

The Pandits, the religious scholars, read their books, but they do not understand the real meaning

We must be able to understand what we are hearing and reading otherwise it is pointless. Like a child fluent only in english being told to read and memorize books written in german. WE MUST TAKE TIME TO REFLECT AND ANALYSE WHAT GURBANI IS SAYING TO US.

bUJY bUJnhwru ibbyk ]

This is understood only by one of discerning understanding.

What kind of student is one if they only read read and read (or listen) without every spending anytime trying to understand what it is they are reading or listening to. And a Sikh is the student of the GUru so why have a Guru(teacher) if we never bother to understand his teachings?

nwnk jn kY ibriq ibbykY ]5]

O Nanak, careful and discerning understanding is the way of the Lord's humble servant.

So just listen.Listen the tunes of Harmonium.Listen the gaps in Kirtan.Inhale more and more silence in Kiratn.Rememer more silent you become,better you received Kirtan.Kirtan is to make your mind silent.That is why Kirtan is above all.Because any katha gives interpretions to Gurbani and that spoils everything.All katha is ‘Kachhi’ baani or immature language.Never forget this truth.Kirtan should be your way.If possible buy a harmonium and do some singing at home.You don’t have to show to anybody.Just for yours.

I do not contest the importance of kirtan and that one should sit quiety and listen to it. Its benefits are endless and it is supreme. However, kirtan simply as a musical device is of limited value if not coupled with understanding of what is being said.

koeI gwvY rwgI nwdI bydI bhu Bwiq kir nhI hir hir BIjY rwm rwjy ]

Some sing of the Lord, through musical Ragas and the sound current of the Naad, through the Vedas, and in so many ways. But the Lord, Har, Har, is not pleased by these alone, O Lord King.

Kirtan is a medium to help us remember and link our minds to God. We must not make kirtan the endpoint in itself.

Sbd surq ilv swD sMg pMc sbd iek sbd imlwey]

The Gurmukh while immersing his meditational faculty in the Word listens to the Word alone even through the five types of sounds (created through many instruments).

rwgnwd sMbwd rK BwiKAw Bwau suBwau Alwey]

Considering the ragas and nadas only as the medium, the Gurmukh discusses and recites with love.

gurmuK bRhm iDAwn Dun jwxY jMqRI jMqR vjwey]

Only the Gurmukhs understand the melody of the knowledge of the supreme reality.

AkQ kQw vIcwr kY ausqq inµdw vrj rhwey]

The Sikhs ponder on the words of the Ineffable, and abstain from praise and blame.

kirtan is a MEDIUM, NOT THE ENDPOINT. We must DICUSS and PONDER on the words/teachings contained within that kirtan!

So to say that all katha is immature and unnecessary then are u saying that when Guru Nanak travelled to different cities he merely sang kirtan for an hour with Mardana and then got up and left for the next city? Do u not think that people would have questions for him? 500 years after Nanak started people still have countless questions about gurbani so one can only imagine when the spread of gurbani first started how many questions ppl must have had. And im sure the Guru wasnt so careless to just leave these questions unanswered. He would sit down and talk to the people and explain his message with examples so they could all understand.

As to saying katha shud be banned in gurdwaras i understand ur point. The majority of kathavachiks today focus on irrlevant, untruthful janamsakhis instead of gurbani and focus peoples mind elsewhere instead of gurbani. However, there are still many great katha vachiks out there. Gurdwara is a place where gurbani (guru) resides. Guru Nanak did kirtan then folowed with katha. Now do u think he did this at same place or wud he suddenly get up after his kirtan and run to a different venue to do his katha so not to 'pollute' the integrity of the kirtan? If Guru Nanak would do his kirtan/katha at same place, and u realize that guru nanak was in fact a gurdwara in himself (for the gurbani/guru resided in him at all times regardless where we went) then who are we to now say that katha shud be banned in gurdwaras? I dont think katha should be banned, but rather those who do wrong untruthful katha should be banned!

Anyways, i hope none of my remarks came across as personal. I merely was trying to clear up some misconceptions people have about kirtan/katha etc.

[Gupt daasan daas]

i agree wit kharkoo 4 life

we are confused on WHAT maya is

maya is illusion, that is the meaning

illusion

maya is the great illyuison, anything that keeps us from akal

that is maya

not money neccesarily

now if u go all craz and start gettin all greedy and stuff, then money is maya to u

bhula chuka maf