After Khalistan

[Bijla Singh]

Could you post that survey?(defintion of a survey;A gathering of a sample of data or opinions considered to be representative of a whole. We shouldnt use opinions only factual based items)India has grown by leaps and bounds in the past four years, we should use current events.

I do not have the survey. But consider this: India is one of the top 10 countries that has highest national debt. India is in top ten worst countries for gender inequality. India is one of the 124 third world countries that are still developing. After 58 years India is still 3rd world and you expect Sikhs to have all the solutions ready so they can just go there and setup a first world country? It is not “Khala Jee Da Vaara”. Transportation system sucks, lot of corruption, not too much privatization of business (though slowly changing). Many areas in UP do not have electricity. This may be the case for some other states but I do not know. So India has problems just like other countries even after independence and for sure so will Khalistan.

Kuwait has so much money they can afford to purify the sea water, or just import it, and they have alot of underground well's

Did they always have money? Making money and building economy is a slow process. Their major resource is oil which we will not have but there are always other ways to build economy which include but to limited to clothing, sports, computers etc etc. My point was to show that no country has everything. One has oil other doesn’t. We have water, electricity, lot of food and many small industries. We can certainly build larger industries and invite foreign companies to invest and do business in Khalistan. Indian government never tried to look for resources in Punjab so don’t know what resources are available. Our major resources are being abused and misused. Pakistan is finding many stocks of natural gas and other resources which we can import. We have to look for them in Khalistan.

and as Mehtab Singh said, whose to say that they would even support us?

But we agreed that the discussion was about aftermath of Khalistan which means after the movement. Are you assuming that they will live in Khalistan but will not support it? If they don’t support us they can leave the country. Do you think after we get Khalistan people of Punjab (esp Sikhs) will turn against us (Don’t assume that the government is unjust and oppressing)?

Oil Pipelines

If you are asking how we would build these then I surely don’t know because this is not my area. How would these pipelines run, from where to where and how these will be managed is what I do not know but does not mean it is impossible. Land has to be tested, what material to be used, engineering problems etc need to be considered before any pipelines are built. Solutions can be found. The government will take decisions on this matter and get help from those who are experts in these areas. My whole point is that why should we give up when we face a problem? But tell me what do you suggest? Should we stay in India to have our Gurdwaras attacked and women raped in the streets? Or should we find solutions? I know for sure that Khalsa will not do to others what India did to us.

I thought I was rational here, no need to say that. I dont think our Guru was a Politician, or do you think otherwise?

He knew politics very well. He built Akal Takhat Sahib and established separate Sikh court. For me Sikh politics is different from the politics you see today. Purpose of the government is to serve people and improve their lifestyle and Baba Banda Singh, Nawaab Kapoor Singh and many other gursikhs very well proved that. Keep in mind that their rule is an example and proof to show that Sikhs have ruled successfully in the past. It is not like we don’t know jack. Politics corrupts those who want to be corrupted.

As Mehtab Singh said Bakhra Eid, feast of meat. They are allowed to eat meat however will we force vegetarianism on them? Also yes Christians are allowed to drink wine/alcohol as well. They use wine during Sunday mass, for communion, i.e, the "blood" of Christ.

Christian church I used to attend did no such thing but anyways, maybe something can be worked out. Maybe they will be allowed to practice it inside their churches and mosques.

Raja Ranjit Singh actually was very open minded and allowed people to bask in religious freedom, therefore yes Muslims/Hindus were very happy.

Like you said, the present rule of Sikh cannot be the exact copy of the previous one. He made large donations to hindu temples and mosques which I have no problem with but there will be some restrictions as there are always.

They can do business because they have ships to transport them to other countries. Which seaport will these manufacturing plants use when we become landlocked?

There are 42 landlocked countries in the world and surviving. To say or think that just because of lack of seaport Khalistan will not survive is irrational. There are many third world countries that have sea ports such as Sri Lanka, and Brazil. Landlocked countries are helped by their neighboring countries that have seaports. In return these countries get money and something else as an exchange. There are numerous possibilities in business. We can use Pakistan’s and/or India’s seaports. I don’t think there is any country that does not want to do business and make profit. How exactly would this work depends on the future, circumstances and situations. Oil can also be imported through India or Pakistan. United Nations is working on passing a treaty that would help landlocked countries get access to seaports. We can survive without a seaport.

Barely surviving off of international aid, and still their masses go hungry and die. It shouldnt be a matter of just "getting by". We should have a full scope of vision if we are to get this nation, not think short term.

hence the word surviving which is the main concern for Sikhs as of today. Punjab has the biggest food industry. Sikhs are survivors not beggars. Sikhs are a successful community in USA, Canada and UK. Provided with better opportunities Sikhs become successful. Much of the food produced in Punjab goes to waste and is bought at lower prices. Your comments also prove that countries are willing to help each other. Even first world countries get loans. We have numerous possibilities and ways to survive and build our economy. There cannot be a one definite answer and solution to one problem. When 13 colonies were fighting for freedom, they didn’t know how they were going to do business and build their economy, their major concern was freedom. Once they got their country they worked on building their country. you need to have a land first before you make any plans of building and upgrading your house.

Actually no, Hindus form a strong majority of Punjabs population, they number in they millions. If a few decided to list Hindi as their mother language that doesnt mean all have, or even if they did does that make it right to take their land away from them simply for that reason? Doesnt sound like the Khalsas way.

I did not say we will kick them out or take their land away which is not their in the first place. Majority of the hindus listed their language as hindi in 1961 which became the basis for diving Punjab and carving out haryana and himachal. Most hindus speak Punjabi but list hindi as their language. Not a single hindu gave arrest or sacrificed for Punjabi Suba. Instead there were riots and Sikh shops were burnt. If hindus like Punjab and Punjabi so much then why did they turn against Punjabi Suba? Why did they welcome army rule in Punjab? Why did they betray their language? Why do they not support getting back Punjabi speaking areas and Chandigarh? Why do they not support having full control over water and electricity? There are many questions but my point is they think that Punjab’s rights mean Sikh rights otherwise Punjab never would’ve gotten divided and Punjab would’ve had equal and fair rights. Hindus are welcome to live there as well as other communities. We want freedom and have a place of our own which is in northern part of India (temporarily).

As for your stance on Pakistan actually you have not given a definitive answer, your article sugggests that we attack them, and claim East Punjab as well

I gave an answer already so no need to keep going back to the article. I firmly believe that east Punjab is ours however attacking is not the right way. Sometimes ago I discussed it with someone and here are few ideas:

a) We will discuss with Pakistani government to have our control over Sikh Gurdwaras.

b) Committees will be established to manage these Gurdwaras. Monthly reports will be submitted to the officials (not necessarily to the federal govt.)

c) The money of the Gurdwaras will be spent in managing the Gurdwaras, Sikh schools, parchaar, helping poor and needy.

d) East Punjab can be part of Khalistan IF majority of the population agrees to join.

I suppose we agree that Islamabad is in Punjab now?

I always thought that Islamabad was outside on the border of Punjab and not inside. Here is the map and it looks like Islamabad is actually outside of Punjab. Maybe I am wrong. Discuss important points here. If this is a competition for you to win then let me know so I won't have to waste my time.

Not necessarily nuclear weapong but non nuclear missiles could be dropped and insurgents now from a safe distance.

The govt. cannot simply drop weapons because that would kill more innocent people and more than likely other countries will find out which would expose the true face of the govt. Also, this would convince even more people that the govt is unjust and they would support freedom movement. By dropping weapons the Indian govt cannot win.

Do you not think if the demand for Khalistan is strong the demand for a structured plan for after seperation should also be on the drawing table?

Yes but I do not think anyone would draw up all the policies and publish them on the net. Which government tells its people all about their doings and how they run the country? One priority at a time. First get a country then setup the constitution and policies.

what will happen to me and my family if you win the war?" What would be your response? Tell them dont worry? What answers will you give to the millions of people there?

I have already stated that what won’t happen in Khalistan would be what Indian govt did to us. Majority of the people in Punjab supported the movement. Those farmers who are committing suicide these days will have freedom to set prices on their crops. It is clear what is happening to them right now.

They need reassurance, I need reassurance, I need to know that this movement has intelligent people involved with it, to make sure our family interests are secure.

There is a difference between the movement itself and people who are in the movement. Bad people in the movement doesn’t mean the movement itself is bad. I know there are bad people in the movement and there were in the past but our responsibility should be to set things straight. If you know what is right and wrong then why don’t you join us and help us with your intelligence? Why don’t you suggest some solutions if you are so worried? I think that would be better. Millions of people were given reassurance by indian leaders but what happened? Are families and their interests safe in India? I think not. The biggest assurance I can give you is if other communities are oppressed and killed in Khalistan like they have been in India then I will join them and fight for their freedom. Sikhs have never been oppressors and never will be because that is not part of Sikhi. If Sikhs ever turn away from Sikhi they will lose support of Guru Sahib and therefore will not become successful which means Khalistan will not happen.

Not everyone has to go back, only those who wish to go back. I personally would. No place like home.

I would like to make a few points very clear:

1) I am not (nor I will be) a leader or a representative of Khalistan. I am simply a supporter of the movement because I have realized that living with India is worthless and only leads to our destruction. Thousands of hindus supported Gandhi in the freedom movement but only very few knew how to run a country. So don’t expect every Khalistani to know everything.

2) Since I am not a representative I can only make suggestions and not decisions. Taking my theories or suggestions as final decisions of the Khalistan government would be foolish. Also, laws change over time.

3) No country is perfect. Every country has loopholes in their laws and policies so expecting flawless plans and policies from Khalistanis is not realistic. Like I said before laws can be changed. India has amended its constitution many times. So, do not expect a perfect constitution and policies from Khalistan.

4) No country gives 100% freedom of religion. Do not expect same from Sikhs. However, I believe religious freedom will be granted as much as possible. Purpose of a religion is to guide people on the path of spirituality. Smoking, adultery and drugs cannot be part of any religion. These acts will be prohibited as much as possible and at certain places. Kicking people out doesn’t solve the problem. Education is a better way. Besides, there will always be courts to go to if someone wants to have more rights.

5) No country adopted a constitution before independence that did not need to be changed. We can write constitution today but it will have to be changed later on. When communities fight for freedom and independence their major concern is survival. Once they get a country their major concern becomes how to run their country and how to manage it.

No doubt we have many problems to solve after Khalistan is created but it is a nature of a Sikh (as well as human nature) to stand up to the challenges and find solutions. Every problem has a solution and Sikhs do not give up when they face a problem. That’s what losers do. Sikhs should be optimistic and look for solutions instead of kicking back and looking up to others to provide them with answers. The future rests on our shoulders and Kirpa of Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

im sick of this why khalistan, what after khalistan, tell me what's going to happen after sikhs were boiled alive in police stations, had their private parts electrocuted and women raped in front of their families.  what is going to happen after hundreds of thousands of people have been liquidated?  Did the sikh nation produce over 200,000 terrorists which the GOI had to exterminate?! what is going to happen after all this oh mighty scholars?  do we go on like nothing happened?  Hindus cannot forget about a 16th century mandir but what about 15 20 years ago for us? we forgot about partition, we forgot about the punjabi suba movement, now what 1984, delhi pogroms?!  are we fools or something are we jsut supposed to take it like sheeps at the butcher?  what about all this scholar sahibs?!  what is going to happen after all this? 

forget about after khalistan, what is going to happen after your people were liquidated?  you ever thought about this?  all you people worrying about the ecenomies and money and inustries, what does that do for a mother who lost four, five sons?  yeah i live in the west, but i have a heart.  have some feelings man, have a heart.  every time we do ardaas we pra for the people who gave shaheedi for the sewa of our gurughars, were any of us doing sewa for the destroyed akaal takhat sahib in 1984?  how many of us left our families to do thsi sewa and end up dead in the ravi river?  who do we pray for in ardaas?  all those shaheed pariwaars are the true reason any of us are proud to be sikh. 

stop all these worthless threads about what will happen after khalistan, save your turban now.

140645[/snapback]

The question of what will happen to our people after Independence is a legitimate question. What would you have Brother, to lead our people to poverty and famine? Do you not think if the demand for Khalistan is strong the demand for a structured plan for after seperation should also be on the drawing table? Many people lost loved ones, another movement will make more mothers cry. You call for Khalistan and if a farmer in Punjab asks you "what will happen to me and my family if you win the war?" What would be your response? Tell them dont worry? What answers will you give to the millions of people there? They need reassurance, I need reassurance, I need to know that this movement has intelligent people involved with it, to make sure our family interests are secure. We can always come back to our homes abroad but there are millions who will feel the effect of it full force. If you find the thread stupid you dont need to post a comment Veer Ji, Peace be with you! GurFateh

140710[/snapback]

my point is: first thing is first. There is no mass khalistan movenment in punjab at the moment and there is no mass movement to get justice for what happened. You are worrying about khalistan as if it is going to happen tomorow. Khalistan is only popular among poeple who know what happened. majority of people in punjab do not even speak of khalistan because they have no clue what GOI is responsible for. You can't have an apple before the seed brother. Once you see more murder cases against the likes of KPS Gill and the treacheries of the GOI are exposed people will step forward in large numbers to support khalistan.

If you read my post i never said don't ask about after khalistan just support it, i said work o get victims justice first, Too many times our people assume it is all about khalistan when someone talks about 1984 and victims' rights. oh well, continue you debate.

good luck. When you guys balance the budget of a non-existent nation, let me know.

[khalsaforce]

my point is: first thing is first. There is no mass khalistan movenment in punjab at the moment and there is no mass movement to get justice for what happened. You are worrying about khalistan as if it is going to happen tomorow. Khalistan is only popular among poeple who know what happened. majority of people in punjab do not even speak of khalistan because they have no clue what GOI is responsible for. You can't have an apple before the seed brother. Once you see more murder cases against the likes of KPS Gill and the treacheries of the GOI are exposed people will step forward in large numbers to support khalistan.

If you read my post i never said don't ask about after khalistan just support it, i said work o get victims justice first, Too many times our people assume it is all about khalistan when someone talks about 1984 and victims' rights. oh well, continue you debate.

good luck. When you guys balance the budget of a non-existent nation, let me know.

140969[/snapback]

THAT WAS A GREAT POINT. I AGREE WITH 100%. WE NEED A MOVEMENT TO GET KHALISTAN. :e:

[LostSoul]

"I do not have the survey. But consider this: India is one of the top 10 countries that has highest national debt. India is in top ten worst countries for gender inequality. India is one of the 124 third world countries that are still developing. After 58 years India is still 3rd world and you expect Sikhs to have all the solutions ready so they can just go there and setup a first world country? It is not “Khala Jee Da Vaara”. Transportation system sucks, lot of corruption, not too much privatization of business (though slowly changing). Many areas in UP do not have electricity. This may be the case for some other states but I do not know. So India has problems just like other countries even after independence and for sure so will Khalistan."

India was freed over half a century ago, it was a different time then. Now you need military might to have a free country. India is on a fast track to become a dominant Superpower, it has a strong emerging Middle class. India also is a openly democratic Country unlike Pakistan which heavily uses religion to influence its politics, and Pakistan remains a stagnant nation.

"Did they always have money? Making money and building economy is a slow process. Their major resource is oil which we will not have but there are always other ways to build economy which include but to limited to clothing, sports, computers etc etc. My point was to show that no country has everything. One has oil other doesn’t. We have water, electricity, lot of food and many small industries. We can certainly build larger industries and invite foreign companies to invest and do business in Khalistan. Indian government never tried to look for resources in Punjab so don’t know what resources are available. Our major resources are being abused and misused. Pakistan is finding many stocks of natural gas and other resources which we can import. We have to look for them in Khalistan."

Actually they had huge oportunities to make money. Yes the economic process is slow for developing nations, but so many succesful businessman reside in Punjab who I hardly think would side with a seceesionist movement. We have waters that are haveily contaminated now, what gain could we recieve from that? Foreign investors would hardly come to a volatile fledging nation, if that was the case Afghanistan would be flooded, Punjab has nothing more to offer than call centers.

"But we agreed that the discussion was about aftermath of Khalistan which means after the movement. Are you assuming that they will live in Khalistan but will not support it? If they don’t support us they can leave the country. Do you think after we get Khalistan people of Punjab (esp Sikhs) will turn against us (Don’t assume that the government is unjust and oppressing)?"

My point was we would always have a divided nation, Punjab is not fully a sikh population, and even the sikhs there might not agree. This post is very long and Im in a hurry. India right now has a Muslim President, a Sikh Prime Minister, and a Sikh Commander of the Army. I fail to see where right now we are being prosecuted. Relply more later.

[Bijla Singh]

Your whole post is based on assumptions and nothing else.

India is on a fast track to become a dominant Superpower

but not a super power yet. even then freedom cannot be jeopardized.

India also is a openly democratic Country unlike Pakistan which heavily uses religion to influence its politics

democratic? study the history of minorities in india first. muslim killings in 2001 is not democratic. and it was only less than four years ago. GOI is influenced by brahminical system. first study how they wanted and still want to declare sanskrit the national language and have all students study it in schools whereas punjabi is not mandatory, not even in punjab.

Yes the economic process is slow for developing nations, but so many succesful businessman reside in Punjab who I hardly think would side with a seceesionist movement.

once again your assumption not a fact. slow economic growth for other nations is acceptable but for Khalistan everything has to be perfect? I thought ignorance had its limits.

We have waters that are haveily contaminated now, what gain could we recieve from that?

provide sources first. if water was of no use then other states wouldn't want it, not even for free. water can be cleaned. every problem has a solution. if you are too lazy to come up with solutions doesn't mean everyone else is.

Foreign investors would hardly come to a volatile fledging nation

your assumption again. who actually thought foreign investors would go to brahminical country that had more than 85% uneducated people? foreign companies went to punjab first but puppet of GOI (badal) didn't let them do any business there cuz otherwise his masters in delhi would've gotten very upset.

Punjab is not fully a sikh population

and your point is? india is not a fully hindu population either.

India right now has a Muslim President, a Sikh Prime Minister, and a Sikh Commander of the Army. I fail to see where right now we are being prosecuted.

it is not new that you fail to see the truth. the prime minister is not a Sikh because he is not a rehatvaan Amritdhari Gursikh. he has done nothing for Sikhs. do some search and you will find many topics on this subject. also you might wanna turn on your brain and study what Sikhs are going through today and what we have gone through. Sikhs do not forget their history. past cannot be changed but it gives us very valuable lessons to learn and make our future better. those who forget their history are destined to go extinct. next time you reply, do some study on Sikh history first especially the time periods of 47, 60s, 78, 84 and aftermath. If your next post is full of assumptions and ignorance, consider this topic over. Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

[Sabre Sword]

Wasnt it during the early 90s Manmohan singh said to the UN (not sure) that ther were no human rights a abuses hapining in india, when killing of sikh youth was rife in punjab?

some correct me if im wrong

but if thats the case, so much for the 'sikh' president. someone who puts their job position before sikhi and sikh principles does not make a good sikh.