Patka, Keski Dastar Or None?

[Heera Singh]

well i guess the whole 'civilized' thing is gone out the window... thanx namstang

[N30S1NGH]

You've mentioned Rani Tara again but you've neglected to address my previous inquiries into how you know she was a brahmgiani and merged with Waheguru. How do you know she got to Sachkhand? If she existed before Guru Nanak, that's fine, but from after Guru Nanak onwards, Gurbani tells us that the only way to merge with Waheguru is through Naam given by the Satguru. Naam is given by Guru Sahib in the form of Punj Pyaaray during an Amrit Sinchaar. From Guru Gobind Singh Jee's time until the 1930's, every Sikh was required to wear a Dastaar before getting Amrit dee daat. This includes Singhs and Singhnees.

read bhai gurdas ji varan below: please tell me what you make outta this whole thing:

suK rwjy hrIcMd Gr nwr su qwrw locn rwxI]

King HariChand had a queen with beautiful eyes, Tara, who had made his home the abode of comforts.

sukh raajae hareechandh ghar naar s thaaraa lochan raanee||

Line  1 

swD sMgiq iml gWvsy rwqIN jwie suxY gurbwxI]

At night she would go to the place where in the form of holy congregation, would recite the holy hymns.

saadhh sangath mil gaanvasae raatheen jaae sunai gurabaanee||

Line  2 

ipCoN rwjw jwigAw A`DI rwq inKMf ivhwxI]

After she had left, the King awoke in the middle of the night and realised she had gone.

pishhon raajaa jaagiaa aadhhee raath nikhandd vihaanee||

Line  3 

rwxI ids n AwveI mn ivc vrq geI hYrwxI]

He could not find the Queen anywhere and his heart filled with astonishment

raanee dhis n aavee man vich varath gee hairaanee||

Line  4 

horqu rwqIN au~TkY cilAw ipCY qrl juAwxI]

The following night he followed the young queen.

horath raatheen outhakai chaliaa pishhai tharal juaanee||

Line  5 

rwxI phuqI sMgqIN rwjy KVI KVWau nIswxI]

The queen reached the holy congregation and the King lifted one of her sandals from there (so that he could prove the infidelity of the queen).

raanee pahuthee sangatheen raajae kharree kharraano neesaanee||

Line  6 

swD sMgiq AwrwiDAw joVI juVI KVwauN purwxI]

When about to go, the queen concentrated upon the holy congregation and the one sandal became a pair.

saadhh sangath aaraadhhiaa jorree jurree kharraaoun puraanee||

Line  7 

rwjy ifTw cilq ieh KVWv hY coj ivfwxI]

The king upheld this feat and realized that there her matching sandal was a miracle.

raajae ddithaa chalith eih kharraanv hai choj viddaanee||

Line  8 

swD sMgq ivthu kurbwxI ]ö]

I am sacrifice unto the holy congregation.

saadhh sangath vittahu kurabaanee ||a||

You seem to question rani tara spirituality based on she probably didn't wear keski, but bhai gurdas ji varan is clear on this. Neverthless, in gurughar only upma is done is being who is liberated.

From Guru Gobind Singh Jee's time until the 1930's, every Sikh was required to wear a Dastaar before getting Amrit dee daat. This includes Singhs and Singhnees..... There's a word for "doing certain things in a certain way". It's called Rehit. You might have heard of it, you know, like when Guru Sahib says "Rehit pyaaree mujh ko, Sikh pyaara naae". Ring a bell?

wearing keski for women is not composulary, this rule is practised by 80 percent of the panth, so whole panth is wrong? 20 percent of the panth made of katar vadi bhasuria panthis is right?? in 1930, it was bhausaria who started acting like a taliban start forcing keski on women, what happened at the end? he got kicked out from the panth because he changed bhagata di bani, no matter how jatha tries to side away from bhasuaria ideology, fact is jatha is quite influenced by fanatical bhasuaria ideology..

here is huge debates on keski , if you wish to learn scholary side of debate:

http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=3100

So much hatred! What does Tapoban have to do with this? It's been proven to you time and time again that you've taken the so-called "quote" about prostitutes out of context, yet you try to slip the same point past us repeatedly, despite being put in your place just as repeatedly. When will you learn? And have you EVER participated in a discussion without being told to tone down the hate and being told you're going off-topic and bringing up totally irrelevant matieral?? Forget about "stepping up" and "giving a taste of their own medicine"....just sit down and take a chill-pill for God's sake! Once you cool down, maybe you could tell me where a fanatical parcharik has called non-keski women "low life worms".

- search "prostitute" key word in fav tapoban, you see chardi-kalah mahan panthic sevadar mkhalsa glorifying post, check it out

- my sister who is non keski amrit dhari went to samagam in our local area, where she felt she was being forced into this beleif, without keski you are just low life non chardi-kalah women, guru ji don't love you blah blah, this is kinda parchar really gets to me, it really makes me worried, where is sikhi going? i would do anything, anything possible to counter attack those katar ideology which has attempted to hijack sri guru gobind singh ji sikhi!!!!!!

[amarjeet_singh_1699]

namastang, until u replied this thread was actually good. it had good arguments without immature comments. if you have a problem with tapoban tell the admin though, dont spread it behind their back. doing chugli is not gurmat.

i dont feel the need to argue tht keski is manadtory for all khalsa, singhni84 and tarunjeet singh have made it quite clear that keski is compulsory for singhnis as well as singhs.

if you still are against this, argue against it logically, instead of throwing accusations all over the place.

i still fail to see how the queen was a brahmgyani because she made a sandal appear

"Raj Mein Raja, Jog Mein Jogi"

firstly its "raaj meh raaja jog meh jogi"

secondly, so?

[KH4L1$T4N1]

Just a question what do akj reckon of teja su bhasuaria?

[Moorakh1]

namastang, until u replied this thread was actually good. it had good arguments without immature comments.

"Raj Mein Raja, Jog Mein Jogi"

firstly its "raaj meh raaja jog meh jogi"

secondly, so?

146185[/snapback]

Agreed! Get the 'eck off this thread Bhangnang :T: Unless you have something constructive thing too say. Spacaa

[jagjit_waheguru]

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, thank you veer namstang in proving someone can actually write 108 silly posts. It took some time but you have managed it.

Before answering your another unbelieavable post. I will just answer veer prabjyot singh quick question. What do AKJ reckon on Teja singh Bhausaria?

He will removed from the Panth for rejecting Bhagat bani. AKJ is a Panthik body, and as such they did not associate with him after. I never knew who Teja singh was until I come across anti-AKJ parchaar. It is a excuse people use to have a dig at AKJ when they nothing else to say. The only time Bhai sahib mentions him, is when whe writes to him to tell him to go pesh in front of the Akal thakht. If he went pesh and was forgiven, then good for him.

He had no influence on Bhai sahib at all. This is clear because in all of bhai sahibs books, all he mentions and references to is Gurbani. He never mentions any other name as a source or influence. He was a strong character who was solely influenced by Gurbani. Everybody knows that. It has been pointed out so many times.

Why mention Teja singh, why not baba Attar singh, or Baba Vaskaha singh or Akali kaur singh or Bhai Trilochan singh or Bhai Vir Singh? They were all contempories of Bhai sahib aswell. They do get mention because there is no mileage for these people in mentioning them.

Bhai sahib had only one influence and that was Gurbani. That is why his books are so good, because they are purely based on Gurbani.

AKJ has no influence of Bhai teja singh either. It follows Rehit as per its definition of Gurmat, and sings gurbani, and hence too is solely influenced by Gurbani.

But this topic has nothing to do with AKJ. AKJ supports keski/dastaar. It does not hide, and is proud of that. They are not the people with problems. They problems seems to be with those who are threatened by a keski.

Many youth who are non AKJ have also accepted the importance ogf keski/dastaar aswell.

Now getting to Veer namstang ji.

Veer ji, you call others taliban, fantical, etc. But veer you are the most fanatical of all. You are so fanatically against Keski/dastaar that you openly spread what is misinformation about to spread your hatred. You know the whole teja singh thing is meaning less, but continue to spew it out. You talk of love for all. But veer it is you hates your own sikhs. So many times you have talked so much rubbish about them. At first I always gave you the benfit of the doubt, but you keep time and time again coming out with the same rubbish, and worse still, you do it knowing it is rubbish.

If your sister does not wish to wear a dastaar, then fine. Nobody is forcing her. But why have you got such an issue with the thousands who do? Throughout the world thousands of bibian are wearing dastaars. They are all realising guru jis Roop, so why has your mind such an issue with it? Why do you insist they are taliban or fanatics. That is so offensive. They are spreading love with Guru Jis Roop.

You talk of nirmallas, but veer ji, you are not "nirmal" yourself? You are steeped in jealousy and hatred. Veer ji, learn from what you preach. There is no point doing "cut and paste" sikhi about spiritual stages, and love when you have no sehaj, and are drenched in such bad thoughts.

Veer ji, you endless mention 108 baba said this and that. Let me ask you. Is there anyone higher than Bhai Nand lal? He may not be from any sampradaya of yours, but he was definately a companion of Guru ji, and he has the status of having his writings equalled to Gurbani. Now please go through each one of his rehit namas in detail. Tell me how anyone can satisfy each and every rehitnama without fully without wearing a dastaar? simpy question.

Lastly, let me tell you something else. We do not wear keskis to reach sackhand. I do not, my wife does not, and even my 7 month daughter does not. We wear them to get the blessing of our Guru. We feel they are part of our Guru given saroop, and we wear them to please him. Nothing more and nothing less. Veer ji, you may say this person took his kirpan off, and that person took their kachara off and they went here and there. But veer ji, we wear them because we love our Guru. He has asked us to wear them, and we will never take them off. They are part of our saroop.

You see sachkhand is not an aim. Making my Guru happy is the aim. Sachkhand is a blessing, which he bestows. That is his chioce, when he wishes to bless his sikhs with. We just try and make him pleased with us.

My daughter is 7 months old. She wears a keski. A very small one, from maal maal. I thought she is too small, and maybe later in life. But when we went pesh, she wore it then. Since then whenever we take it off she cries, until we re-tie it on her. I was surprised at first. Now I just consider as a blessing that my child at 7 months already loves her keski. You see. We do things to make our Guru pleased, and our Guru contniues to make our lives happy and just like living in sachkhand.

Attached is a picture of my daughter. Bibi komal kaur. 7 months.

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh.

[Singh132]

Namastang,

I've given you the benefit of the doubt in the past but now I can see your dil is khota.

You know full well no one on Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib forum called non-keski wearers prostitutes. You know it is a lie.

You also know that your Sikhawareness has called keski wearers napunsak ie. trasngendered/transvestite/3rd gender.

You have so much hate in your heart but you are the first one to crow about love and tolerance.

You are a merchant of negativity and I think most people now know that your words have no weight.

If you really have that big a problem with the forum, you know who I am, you've PM'd me in the past. Set up a meeting. I'll happily discuss this with you face to face as opposed to you bringing up your grudge time and time again.

[N30S1NGH]

I swear to God, i have seen mkhalsa posting calling non-keski wearing women as hindu prostitutes on the tapoban forum. I am not blaming tapoban forum for this but that dude alone. Also for record, i don't have problem if such message was slipped through mod's hand on tapoban. I know mod's job is not easy.. as i m one of them on sikhawareness.

[proud_to_be_singhni]

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh

Pyare jio, thank you veer namstang in proving someone can actually write 108 silly posts. It took some time but you have managed it.

Before answering your another unbelieavable post. I will just answer veer prabjyot singh quick question. What do AKJ reckon on Teja singh Bhausaria?

He will removed from the Panth for rejecting Bhagat bani. AKJ is a Panthik body, and as such they did not associate with him after. I never knew who Teja singh was until I come across anti-AKJ parchaar. It is a excuse people use to have a dig at AKJ when they nothing else to say. The only time Bhai sahib mentions him, is when whe writes to him to tell him to go pesh in front of the Akal thakht. If he went pesh and was forgiven, then good for him.

He had no influence on Bhai sahib at all. This is clear because in all of bhai sahibs books, all he mentions and references to is Gurbani. He never mentions any other name as a source or influence. He was a strong character who was solely influenced by Gurbani. Everybody knows that. It has been pointed out so many times.

Why mention Teja singh, why not baba Attar singh, or Baba Vaskaha singh or Akali kaur singh or Bhai Trilochan singh or Bhai Vir Singh? They were all contempories of Bhai sahib aswell. They do get mention because there is no mileage for these people in mentioning them.

Bhai sahib had only one influence and that was Gurbani. That is why his books are so good, because they are purely based on Gurbani.

AKJ has no influence of Bhai teja singh either. It follows Rehit as per its definition of Gurmat, and sings gurbani, and hence too is solely influenced by Gurbani.

But this topic has nothing to do with AKJ. AKJ supports keski/dastaar. It does not hide, and is proud of that. They are not the people with problems. They problems seems to be with those who are threatened by a keski.

Many youth who are non AKJ have also accepted the importance ogf keski/dastaar aswell.

Now getting to Veer namstang ji.

Veer ji, you call others taliban, fantical, etc. But veer you are the most fanatical of all. You are so fanatically against Keski/dastaar that you openly spread what is misinformation about to spread your hatred. You know the whole teja singh thing is meaning less, but continue to spew it out. You talk of love for all. But veer it is you hates your own sikhs. So many times you have talked so much rubbish about them. At first I always gave you the benfit of the doubt, but you keep time and time again coming out with the same rubbish, and worse still, you do it knowing it is rubbish.

If your sister does not wish to wear a dastaar, then fine. Nobody is forcing her. But why have you got such an issue with the thousands who do? Throughout the world thousands of bibian are wearing dastaars. They are all realising guru jis Roop, so why has your mind such an issue with it? Why do you insist they are taliban or fanatics. That is so offensive. They are spreading love with Guru Jis Roop.

You talk of nirmallas, but veer ji, you are not "nirmal" yourself? You are steeped in jealousy and hatred. Veer ji, learn from what you preach. There is no point doing "cut and paste" sikhi about spiritual stages, and love when you have no sehaj, and are drenched in such bad thoughts.

Veer ji, you endless mention 108 baba said this and that. Let me ask you. Is there anyone higher than Bhai Nand lal? He may not be from any sampradaya of yours, but he was definately a companion of Guru ji, and he has the status of having his writings equalled to Gurbani. Now please go through each one of his rehit namas in detail. Tell me how anyone can satisfy each and every rehitnama without fully without wearing a dastaar? simpy question.

Lastly, let me tell you something else. We do not wear keskis to reach sackhand. I do not, my wife does not, and even my 7 month daughter does not. We wear them to get the blessing of our Guru. We feel they are part of our Guru given saroop, and we wear them to please him. Nothing more and nothing less. Veer ji, you may say this person took his kirpan off, and that person took their kachara off and they went here and there. But veer ji, we wear them because we love our Guru. He has asked us to wear them, and we will never take them off. They are part of our saroop.

You see sachkhand is not an aim. Making my Guru happy is the aim. Sachkhand is a blessing, which he bestows. That is his chioce, when he wishes to bless his sikhs with. We just try and make him pleased with us.

My daughter is 7 months old. She wears a keski. A very small one, from maal maal. I thought she is too small, and maybe later in life. But when we went pesh, she wore it then. Since then whenever we take it off she cries, until we re-tie it on her. I was surprised at first. Now I just consider as a blessing that my child at 7 months already loves her keski. You see. We do things to make our Guru pleased, and our Guru contniues to make our lives happy and just like living in sachkhand.

Attached is a picture of my daughter. Bibi komal kaur. 7 months.

waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ke fateh.

146211[/snapback]

What a beautiful singhneee.......veer ji shes adorable and in such chardi kala. May Guru ji's blessings remain forever on her. vahegurooooooooo.......awwwwwwwwwwwwweee...........

[N30S1NGH]

Before anything, this is post to clarify my intentions. I have my fiance who wears a keski. I have nothing against keski.. it's just people like jagjit singh who label me anti-keski, jealous person just because i don't believe in some of ideologies in his jatha and i m outspoken about it.

Why mention Teja singh, why not baba Attar singh, or Baba Vaskaha singh or Akali kaur singh or Bhai Trilochan singh or Bhai Vir Singh? They were all contempories of Bhai sahib aswell. They do get mention because there is no mileage for these people in mentioning them.

Sant attar singh ji avtar of 20th century, did not change 5th kakar(kesh) into keski - amrit parchar organized by him in form of panj pyares.

As far as i know, bhindranwale mahapursh, baba attar singh ji all encouraged women to wear keski but did not make it fully compulsary... best example is wife of sant jarnail singh bhindranwale. sant jarnail singh may have requested her, but it was her choice at the end of day. Now if someone tells me, she committed a manmat. They deserve nothing but jhootiya da haar around their neck. It's a personal choice. Each person is unique, they all please guru ji in their other Gurmat ways. Your way of Gurmat is good but so as others way. I say all is good to please Guru ji but when someone attempts to make others with dubta by saying- "oh guru ji don't love you because you don't wear keski" by exploiting their weakness of being innocent and sensitive, that's where i draw a line. Such evil people do not deserve to be in the jatha let alone Sikh of Guru.

Veer ji, you call others taliban, fantical, etc. But veer you are the most fanatical of all. You are so fanatically against Keski/dastaar that you openly spread what is misinformation about to spread your hatred.

I call those who are fanatic when someone forces their ideology on to others just to seek converts in their soo soo "jatha".

I say all is good to please Guru ji but when someone attempts to make others with dubta by saying-

"oh guru ji don't love you because you don't wear keski" by exploiting their weakness of being innocent and sensitive

If your sister does not wish to wear a dastaar, then fine. Nobody is forcing her. But why have you got such an issue with the thousands who do?

Again, i don't have issues with thousand of biba's who wear keski including my own fianace. I have problem based on the expereince what my sister went through in the samagam.

again let me quote to clear your vision of what i meant:

my sister who is non keski amrit dhari went to samagam in our local area, where she felt she was being forced into this beleif, without keski you are just low life non chardi-kalah women, guru ji don't love you blah blah, this is kinda parchar really gets to me, it really makes me worried, where is sikhi going? i would do anything, anything possible to counter attack those katar ideology which has attempted to hijack sri guru gobind singh ji sikhi!!!!!!

Throughout the world thousands of bibian are wearing dastaars. They are all realising guru jis Roop, so why has your mind such an issue with it? Why do you insist they are taliban or fanatics. That is so offensive. They are spreading love with Guru Jis Roop.

Nope i m clearly not saying women who wear keski are influenced by taliban or fanatics.. look above i already clarified.

Veer ji, you endless mention 108 baba said this and that. Let me ask you. Is there anyone higher than Bhai Nand lal? He may not be from any sampradaya of yours, but he was definately a companion of Guru ji, and he has the status of having his writings equalled to Gurbani. Now please go through each one of his rehit namas in detail. Tell me how anyone can satisfy each and every rehitnama without fully without wearing a dastaar? simpy question.

It's not 108 baba who said this or that. At the end of day, that's what sri akaal takth sahib says- kesh is kakar not keski. It's good to have certain jatha's beleive, as it's good to have certain samparda's beleifs too because of diversity in the panth but not to accept panthic maryada of sri akaal takth sahib... that's not very panthic is it? is it now?

also please look at the previous link provided on keski debate on sikhawarneess. amrit pal singh amrit shred the propaganda of keski being 5th kakar by doing vichar on bhai nand lal ji:

link again: http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...bc70640e853cc92

Lastly, let me tell you something else. We do not wear keskis to reach sackhand. I do not, my wife does not, and even my 7 month daughter does not. We wear them to get the blessing of our Guru. We feel they are part of our Guru given saroop, and we wear them to please him. Nothing more and nothing less. Veer ji, you may say this person took his kirpan off, and that person took their kachara off and they went here and there. But veer ji, we wear them because we love our Guru. He has asked us to wear them, and we will never take them off. They are part of our saroop. You see sachkhand is not an aim. Making my Guru happy is the aim. Sachkhand is a blessing, which he bestows. That is his chioce, when he wishes to bless his sikhs with. We just try and make him pleased with us. 

That's really nice veer ji, but again you looking at things from black and white view. Individual pleasing Guru Maharaj is all relative. For some is external bibek for some it's more internal bibek than external for some pleasing guru is all kirtan, but common out of all is naam, bani, seva towards Gurparsad.

My daughter is 7 months old. She wears a keski. A very small one, from maal maal. I thought she is too small, and maybe later in life. But when we went pesh, she wore it then. Since then whenever we take it off she cries, until we re-tie it on her. I was surprised at first. Now I just consider as a blessing that my child at 7 months already loves her keski. You see. We do things to make our Guru pleased, and our Guru contniues to make our lives happy and just like living in sachkhand.

Sheee looks very cute, i also wish if i ever had a daughter, will give her those values of keeping keski but at the same time, giving her values that also consider non keski wearing women as sikh of guru too. I will never give her dvaish (partiality) kinda attribute.

I hope you do the same. Childrens are wonderful you can shape their mind in whichever way you ( being parents) want

Sat siri akaaal