Heaven And Hell

[randip singh]

I know in Japji Sahib, Guru jee has written about the 5 realms. My question is, what is the purpose of having 5 realms? And who belongs to these realms? How is it determined which realm one goes to? (I know only God can determine this but is there anything we can do in this life that will determine which realm we go to?) And if one does not reach Sachkand, does this mean one will not "be" with God?

146940[/snapback]

Fateh,

The "realms" you speak of are indeed listed in Jap Ji Sahib, however, the important thing to understand is that they are not some mystical places one goes to after death but rather they are spiritual stages one progresses through on the journey to unite as one with God.

Purpose

The purpose of listing these various "khands" or stages is to help man understand the journey he is about to take. One can consider it a navigation tool to help identify the road (stage) the person is currently travelling on and the roads (stages) which lay ahead.

Granted, if we decide to make a long trip to a different city we can try and wing it and there is a possiblity we may reach our destination. However, there is a very high risk we wont reach our intended destination and even if we do there is a very high probability the journey will be filled with many difficulties, mistakes, wrong turns etc. Thus to help avoid all these obstacles and make our journey as simple and enjoyable as possible the guru has provided us with a sort of 'spiritual map' to help us navigate our way to our final destination (union with God).

Belonging to these realms

Anyone who makes the appropriate efforts with a honest humble heart can make his way through these stages (with the grace of God of course)

Who determines this?

Which stage we reach is determined by our own initiative and actions. As man steps on the pathway he can choose whether to stay committed and work earnestly to travel the rest of the journey or he can choose to stop along the way (become sidetracked) and become preoccupied with other things.

For instance, many people who develop the initial desire to walk the paht of the Guru start off by following the "dharam" of the guru and questioning their own previous actions, the purpose of their life and a want to change it for the better and thus progress to 2nd stage of "gyaan" where they have a thirst to acquire spiritual knowledge and understanding of gurbani. But often they get stuck at this stage and become engrossed in unhealthy pride of religiousity (that i read this much paath, or i am such a good devoted sikh etc.) and never progress any further.

Being one with God

Being one with god is not a place we go to but rather a understanding, or inner realization that "hey, god is already within me". WHen one comes to this understanding that god permeates everywhre and in everyone, and ones thoughts and actions change to respect and honour His Presence everywhere, then that is when the person can be said to have reached the stage of Sachkhand.

147032[/snapback]

Another brilliant post.

The concept of heaven and hell is here and now!

[randip singh]

why do some sikhs say there isnt a hell? there many hells (terrible punishments)and heavens in dharam khand.

146985[/snapback]

They are here and now.

Read the above articles before making any further comments.

146988[/snapback]

read undithi dunyia

146995[/snapback]

Why bother with that when I can got to the source...my Guru...i.e. Bani!

[sher_panjabi]

kvnu nrku ikAw surgu ibcwrw sMqn doaU rwdy ]

What is hell, and what is heaven? The Saints reject them both.

hm kwhU kI kwix n kFqy Apny gur prswdy ]5]

I have no obligation to either of them, by the Grace of my Guru. ||5||

Ab qau jwie cFy isMGwsin imly hY swirMgpwnI ]

Now, I have mounted to the throne of the Lord; I have met the Lord, the Sustainer of the World.

rwm kbIrw eyk Bey hY koie n skY pCwnI ]6]3]

The Lord and Kabeer have become one. No one can tell them apart. ||6||3|

(Ang 969, SGGS)

kbIr surg nrk qy mY rihE siqgur ky prswid ]

Kabeer, I have been spared from heaven and hell, by the Grace of the True Guru.

crn kml kI mauj mih rhau AMiq Aru Awid ]120]

From beginning to end, I abide in the joy of the Lord's Lotus Feet. ||120||

(Ang 1370, SGGS)

[randip singh]

kvnu nrku ikAw surgu ibcwrw sMqn doaU rwdy ]

What is hell, and what is heaven? The Saints reject them both.

hm kwhU kI kwix n kFqy Apny gur prswdy ]5]

I have no obligation to either of them, by the Grace of my Guru. ||5||

Ab qau jwie cFy isMGwsin imly hY swirMgpwnI ]

Now, I have mounted to the throne of the Lord; I have met the Lord, the Sustainer of the World.

rwm kbIrw eyk Bey hY koie n skY pCwnI ]6]3]

The Lord and Kabeer have become one. No one can tell them apart. ||6||3|

(Ang 969, SGGS)

kbIr surg nrk qy mY rihE siqgur ky prswid ]

Kabeer, I have been spared from heaven and hell, by the Grace of the True Guru.

crn kml kI mauj mih rhau AMiq Aru Awid ]120]

From beginning to end, I abide in the joy of the Lord's Lotus Feet. ||120||

(Ang 1370, SGGS)

147148[/snapback]

Excellent post on hoe Sikhs reject the notion of heaven and hell!

Well researched!

[Bundha]

There are many references to heaven and hell Guru Granth Sahib Ji speaks of but alas some people are doomed to misinterpret.

Here Guru Sahib Ji talks of heaven abd hell and the realms of Shiva, Brahma and Indra. These are all true realms where souls live just as we like in Maatloke. None is permanent though and the soul moves on in the cycle of life and death until it reaches its goal merger with Akaalpurkh and a place in Satch Khand.

These New Wave Sikhs will have us believe there is no heaven, hell, reincarnation … but time and time again guru Sahib Ji tells us different, open your eyes guys.

Raag Gauree Maalwaa, Fifth Mehl:

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

Chant the Lord's Name; O my friend, chant it. Hereafter, the path is terrifying and treacherous. ||1||Pause||

Serve, serve, forever serve the Lord. Death hangs over your head.

Do seva, selfless service, for the Holy Saints, and the noose of Death shall be cut away. ||1||

You may make burnt offerings, sacrificial feasts and pilgrimages to sacred shrines in egotism, but your corruption only increases.

You are subject to both heaven and hell, and you are reincarnated over and over again. ||2||

The realm of Shiva, the realms of Brahma and Indra as well - no place anywhere is permanent.

Without serving the Lord, there is no peace at all. The faithless cynic comes and goes in reincarnation. ||3||

As the Guru has taught me, so have I spoken.

Says Nanak, listen, people: sing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, and you shall be saved. ||4||1||158||

Guru Ji says, do simran because in the hereafter the path in terrifying and treacherous. If heaven and hell is all heare then why the terrifying and treacherous path if you haven’t done any simran and naam?

[Bundha]

An excellent post by Bundha on how the Gurus told us about heaven and hell............well done yaar!

[randip singh]

There are many references to heaven and hell Guru Granth Sahib Ji speaks of but alas some people are doomed to misinterpret.

Here Guru Sahib Ji talks of heaven abd hell and the realms of Shiva, Brahma and Indra. These are all true realms where souls live just as we like in Maatloke. None is permanent though and the soul moves on in the cycle of life and death until it reaches its goal merger with Akaalpurkh and a place in Satch Khand.

These New Wave Sikhs will have us believe there is no heaven, hell, reincarnation … but time and time again guru Sahib Ji tells us different, open your eyes guys.

Raag Gauree Maalwaa, Fifth Mehl:

One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

Chant the Lord's Name; O my friend, chant it. Hereafter, the path is terrifying and treacherous. ||1||Pause||

Serve, serve, forever serve the Lord. Death hangs over your head.

Do seva, selfless service, for the Holy Saints, and the noose of Death shall be cut away. ||1||

You may make burnt offerings, sacrificial feasts and pilgrimages to sacred shrines in egotism, but your corruption only increases.

You are subject to both heaven and hell, and you are reincarnated over and over again. ||2||

The realm of Shiva, the realms of Brahma and Indra as well - no place anywhere is permanent.

Without serving the Lord, there is no peace at all. The faithless cynic comes and goes in reincarnation. ||3||

As the Guru has taught me, so have I spoken.

Says Nanak, listen, people: sing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, and you shall be saved. ||4||1||158||

Guru Ji says, do simran because in the hereafter the path in terrifying and treacherous.  If heaven and hell is all heare then why the terrifying and treacherous path if you haven’t done any simran and naam?

147267[/snapback]

Yes a brilliantly gross misinterpretation by Bundha and the New Age Brahmin’s ;-)

This tukh beautifly describes the futility of believing in heaven or hell. Sobasically if you believe in heaven or hell you will be subject to it. It will become a self fulfilling prophecy. Those egotistical people are the one’s who believe in heaven or hell:

You may make burnt offerings, sacrificial feasts and pilgrimages to sacred shrines in egotism, but your corruption only increases.

You are subject to both heaven and hell, and you are reincarnated over and over again. ||2||

The realm of Shiva, the realms of Brahma and Indra as well - no place anywhere is permanent.

So what Guruji is saying is there is no heaven or hell. Only small minded people who wish to frighten each other believe in such places. The heaven and hell we create is here and now. We create it around us and in our minds and bodies.

Guruji even describes where heaven is, but alas Bandha will not believe us:

Page 325 Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

ga-orhee kabeer jee.

Gauree, Kabeer Jee:

jo jan parmit parman jaanaa.

He claims to know the Lord, who is beyond measure and beyond thought;

baatan hee baikunth samaanaa. ||1||

by mere words, he plans to enter heaven. ||1||

naa jaanaa baikunth kahaa hee.

I do not know where heaven is.

jaan jaan sabh kaheh tahaa hee. ||1|| rahaa-o.

Everyone claims that he plans to go there. ||1||Pause||

kahan kahaavan nah patee-a-ee hai.

By mere talk, the mind is not appeased.

ta-o man maanai jaa tay ha-umai ja-ee hai. ||2||

The mind is only appeased, when egotism is conquered. ||2||

jab lag man baikunth kee aas.

As long as the mind is filled with the desire for heaven,

tab lag ho-ay nahee charan nivaas. ||3||

he does not dwell at the Lord's Feet. ||3||

kaho kabeer ih kahee-ai kaahi.

Says Kabeer, unto whom should I tell this?

saaDhsangat baikunthay aahi. ||4||10||

The Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, is heaven. ||4||10||

Page 682 Guru Arjan Dev ji confirms this again:

Dhanaasree mehlaa 5.

Dhanaasaree, Fifth Mehl:

jan kay pooran ho-ay kaam.

All the affairs of the Lord's humble servant are perfectly resolved.

kalee kaal mahaa bikhi-aa meh lajaa raakhee raam. ||1|| rahaa-o.

In the utterly poisonous Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Lord preserves and protects his honor. ||1||Pause||

simar simar su-aamee parabh apunaa nikat na aavai jaam.

Remembering, remembering God, his Lord and Master in meditation, the Messenger of Death does not approach him.

mukat baikunth saaDh kee sangat jan paa-i-o har kaa Dhaam. ||1||

Liberation and heaven are found in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; his humble servant finds the home of the Lord. ||1||

charan kamal har jan kee thaatee kot sookh bisraam.

The Lord's lotus feet are the treasure of His humble servant; in them, he finds millions of pleasures and comforts.

gobind damodar simra-o din rain naanak sad kurbaan. ||2||17||48||

He remembers the Lord God in meditation, day and night; Nanak is forever a sacrifice to him. ||2||17||48||

Page 1161…this is confirmed yet again:

daas kabeer tayree panah samaanaaN.

Slave Kabeer has entered Your Shelter.

bhisat najeek raakh rehmaanaa. ||4||7||15||

Keep me near You, O Merciful Lord God - that is heaven for me. ||4||7||15||

sabh ko-ee chalan kahat hai oohaaN.

Everyone speaks of going there,

naa jaan-o baikunth hai kahaaN. ||1|| rahaa-o.

but I do not even know where heaven is. ||1||Pause||

aap aap kaa maram na jaanaaN.

One who does not even know the mystery of his own self,

baatan hee baikunth bakhaanaaN. ||1||

speaks of heaven, but it is only talk. ||1||

jab lag man baikunth kee aas.

As long as the mortal hopes for heaven,

tab lag naahee charan nivaas. ||2||

he will not dwell at the Lord's Feet. ||2||

khaa-ee kot na paral pagaaraa.

Heaven is not a fort with moats and ramparts, and walls plastered with mud;

naa jaan-o baikunth du-aaraa. ||3||

I do not know what heaven's gate is like. ||3||

kahi kameer ab kahee-ai kaahi.

Says Kabeer, now what more can I say?

saaDhsangat baikunthay aahi. ||4||8||16||

The Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, is heaven itself. ||4||8||16||

ki-o leejai gadh bankaa bhaa-ee.

How can the beautiful fortress be conquered, O Siblings of Destiny?

dovar kot ar tayvar khaa-ee. ||1|| rahaa-o.

It has double walls and triple moats. ||1||Pause||

paaNch pachees moh mad matsar aadee parbal maa-i-aa.

It is defended by the five elements, the twenty-five categories, attachment, pride, jealousy and the awesomely powerful Maya.

jan gareeb ko jor na pahuchai kahaa kara-o raghuraa-i-aa. ||1||

The poor mortal being does not have the strength to conquer it; what should I do now, O Lord? ||1||

kaam kivaaree dukh sukh darvaanee paap punn darvaajaa.

Sexual desire is the window, pain and pleasure are the gate-keepers, virtue and sin are the gates.

kroDh parDhaan mahaa bad dundar tah man maavaasee raajaa. ||2||

Anger is the great supreme commander, full of argument and strife, and the mind is the rebel king there. ||2||

Their armor is the pleasure of tastes and flavors, their helmets are worldly attachments; they take aim with their bows of corrupt intellect.

tisnaa teer rahay ghat bheetar i-o gadh lee-o na jaa-ee. ||3||

The greed that fills their hearts is the arrow; with these things, their fortress is impregnable. ||3||

paraym paleetaa surat havaa-ee golaa gi-aan chalaa-i-aa.

But I have made divine love the fuse, and deep meditation the bomb; I have launched the rocket of spiritual wisdom.

There is even a guide above on how to create heaven here and now.

Poor research Bundha - 0 out of 10! :e:

[Bundha]

Sorry Randip Ji glossing over most of the shabad and picking out one aspect is not very good is it?

Raag Gauree Maalwaa, Fifth Mehl:

<<One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

<<Chant the Lord's Name; O my friend, chant it. Hereafter, the path is terrifying and treacherous. ||1||Pause||

Chant the name of the Lord as the hereafter path is terrifying and treacherous. What exactly is the hereafter? It is certainly not the Here – and – Now as you keep going on about. The hereafter is after death, why would that be terrifying if you have no Naam ?

<<Serve, serve, forever serve the Lord. Death hangs over your head.

<<Do seva, selfless service, for the Holy Saints, and the noose of Death shall be cut away. ||1||

Selfless service of Sant Mahapursh………….but alas that is another issue we clash upon!

<<You may make burnt offerings, sacrificial feasts and pilgrimages to sacred shrines in egotism, but your corruption only increases.

<<You are subject to both heaven and hell, and you are reincarnated over and over again. ||2||

Here is shown the futility of rituals and ego over Naam Simran as stated in the first lines. You are all going to be subject ot heaven and hell and reincarnate over and over again. The fact that Guru Ji adds the bit about reincarnation means Guru Ji is not talking about the here and now but of the future.

<<The realm of Shiva, the realms of Brahma and Indra as well - no place anywhere is permanent.

Why the realms of Shiva, Brahma and Indra? If there is only the here and now why these realms? These realms exist because souls have done good karm and have achieved the level of staying here, it temporarly.

<<Without serving the Lord, there is no peace at all. The faithless cynic comes and goes in reincarnation. ||3||

<<As the Guru has taught me, so have I spoken.

<<Says Nanak, listen, people: sing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, and you shall be saved. ||4||1||158||

[amarjeet_singh_1699]

why do some sikhs say there isnt a hell? there many hells (terrible punishments)and heavens in dharam khand.

146985[/snapback]

They are here and now.

Read the above articles before making any further comments.

146988[/snapback]

read undithi dunyia

146995[/snapback]

Why bother with that when I can got to the source...my Guru...i.e. Bani!

147125[/snapback]

yes. if ony you would actually understand gurbani, instead of trying to make it say what you believe

[randip singh]

Sorry Randip Ji glossing over most of the shabad and picking out one aspect is not very good is it?

Raag Gauree Maalwaa, Fifth Mehl:

<<One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

<<Chant the Lord's Name; O my friend, chant it. Hereafter, the path is terrifying and treacherous. ||1||Pause||

Chant the name of the Lord as the hereafter path is terrifying and treacherous. What exactly is the hereafter? It is certainly not the Here – and – Now as you keep going on about. The hereafter is after death, why would that be terrifying if you have no Naam ?

<<Serve, serve, forever serve the Lord. Death hangs over your head.

<<Do seva, selfless service, for the Holy Saints, and the noose of Death shall be cut away. ||1||

Selfless service of Sant Mahapursh………….but alas that is another issue we clash upon!

<<You may make burnt offerings, sacrificial feasts and pilgrimages to sacred shrines in egotism, but your corruption only increases.

<<You are subject to both heaven and hell, and you are reincarnated over and over again. ||2||

Here is shown the futility of rituals and ego over Naam Simran as stated in the first lines. You are all going to be subject ot heaven and hell and reincarnate over and over again. The fact that Guru Ji adds the bit about reincarnation means Guru Ji is not talking about the here and now but of the future.

<<The realm of Shiva, the realms of Brahma and Indra as well - no place anywhere is permanent.

Why the realms of Shiva, Brahma and Indra? If there is only the here and now why these realms? These realms exist because souls have done good karm and have achieved the level of staying here, it temporarly.

<<Without serving the Lord, there is no peace at all. The faithless cynic comes and goes in reincarnation. ||3||

<<As the Guru has taught me, so have I spoken.

<<Says Nanak, listen, people: sing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, and you shall be saved. ||4||1||158||

147280[/snapback]

Where have I picked out? I just highlighted the way you have misred you own tukh!

Is not heaven meant to be permanent ? God is eternal…he/shee is Akaal (timeless)…then why are these realms not eternal? Then why does Guruji describe them as not permanent if he thinks they are realms of eternal bliss? They are temporary states of mind invented by people who also believe in fairies.

I will conceded one thing though….I think Guruji was and has described different dimensions of existence……this is something even science backs up!

I noticed how you have TOTALLY avoided the tukhs I put there, because it 100% backs up my point and back up the reasoning of 99% of Sikh scholars.