Heaven And Hell

[singh_khalsa]

randip singh ji, u still dont believe in heaven or hell after my 2 posts with gurbani of jamdhoots and ajaamal? and you reposted that shabdh of being incarnated in hell and heaven, i've told you noone here disagrees on your belief that hell and heaven can be on earth. the argument is on hell and heaven after death.

thank you.

[randip singh]

randip singh ji, u still dont believe in heaven or hell after my 2 posts with gurbani of jamdhoots and ajaamal? and you reposted that shabdh of being incarnated in hell and heaven, i've told you noone here disagrees on your belief that hell and heaven can be on earth. the argument is on hell and heaven after death.

thank you.

147662[/snapback]

Ok let me explain it to you like this.

Imagine Heaven like a cut price sale with everything reduced by 90%. You'll get everything you want provided you have enough money saved up. Everyone is saving and hording money for it. Depriving family memebers of things to save for the sale. They all try and rush to the sale in their cars, causing others to crash. When they queue they are like animals trying to get to the front for this sale. In all this rush for this sale they care not for what they are doing to their fellow man. Be it they starve them, hurt them or simply don't care for them. Some try and bribe the shop keeper. In the end they find out it was all a hoax.

In trying to get to this sale they have in the mean time created a hell all around them.

This the problem with having a physical heaven in the afterlife, and it was this the Guru's realised. That is why it is so important we try and create a heaven here and now with our fellow men and women.

[singh_khalsa]

randip singh ji, this is your own way of putting it, yes that is why gursikhs dont strive for heaven, they just want the love of waheguru. are the khands mentioned in jap ji sahib just applied to life? so what does happen when we die? is there no punishment for evil doers(explained in gurbani) and is there no reward for good?(again explained in gurbani) guru ji critisized hindhus for having superstitions and commiting pointless acts just to get a short cut to heaven. guru ji has never said heaven doesnt exist. infact as the numurous gurbani quotes above have mentioned, guru ji tells us there are countless hells and heavens. we all go to dharam khand, we have to go somewhere when we die! are you suggesting we dont have an afterlife or that something different happens instead of being judged? i don't understand how you've dismissed hell as a figure of imagination when gurbani clearly describes hell,jamdhoots,dhramrai.

[singh_khalsa]

benti to sangat not to post more gurbani as there is plenty showing proof of the reality of jamdhoots, hell and heaven. randip singh ji has chosen not to accept, still! so i've asked randip singh ji what does happen after death and if he even belives in an afterlife. this may explain why randip singh has completely chosen to ignore hell and heaven, instead of heated arguments between certain members.

[randip singh]

benti to sangat not to post more gurbani as there is plenty showing proof of the reality of jamdhoots, hell and heaven. randip singh ji has chosen not to accept, still! so i've asked randip singh ji what does happen after death and if he even belives in an afterlife. this may explain why randip singh has completely chosen to ignore hell and heaven, instead of heated arguments between certain members.

147694[/snapback]

Those countless heavens and hells are what scientists term as dimensions. Sikhism is a very advanced faith.

What happens after death is like what I stated on a another post, we are matter once we die we are still matter.........in other words matter is neither created or destroyed, it just changes form......another way of expressing that would be I suppose reincarnation. Some believe that we who reach a state of higher consciuosness (gurmookh) reach a higher level of existence, another dimesion. I am convinced that what scientists are just begining to discover now our Guru's explained many years ago.

I havent ignored your heaven and hell argument, but I don't like semetic concepts...they lead us on a guilt trip, and they do not take account of our actions to our fellow man.

[randip singh]

ps ..... see u in hell !!!!

sorry couldnt resist!!!

147651[/snapback]

Ok see you there Satan! Keep the fire's burning!

[AK-47]

Dont worry lad, ill have an extra special hot hot hot one for you!! :TH:

Guys honestly there comes a point when you have to just let fools drown in their own drivel! You have tried to throw Randip a life jacket .. but if he doesnt want it then so be it!!

[kds1980]

wjkk

wjkf

late gyani sant singh ji maskeen had always said in his katha that heaven and hell exists on earth.a person who have all the worldly pleasures is like living

in heaven on the other hand a person is born on road or suffer from incurable illness or handicaped is like living in hell

[kds1980]

i have a question to all heaven hell supporters.if there is heaven and hell which we get according to our karmas then why we get suffering and pleasures on this earth

[Kharkoo4Life]

It is wonderful to see so many ideas and assumptions about what will happen to us after we die, where our soul will go, what it will be subjected to etc. but putting aside our own limited naive understanding of death and guesswork about what will happend to our souls after our bodily death have we ever tried to listen what the guru tell us?

Guru Nanak has told us himself that the fate of the soul after the body dies is unknown. We can philosphize, analyze, discuss this as much as we want but only God Himself knows the true aftermath.

iek dJih iek dbIAih ieknw kuqy Kwih ]

Some are cremated, and some are buried; some are eaten by dogs.

ieik pwxI ivic austIAih ieik BI iPir hsix pwih ]

Some are thrown into water, while others are thrown into wells.

nwnk eyv n jwpeI ikQY jwie smwih ]2]

O Nanak, it is not known, where they go and into what they merge.

The whole concept of a post death heaven or hell is based on the premise that God will judge our actions AFTER we die. That we live a life engaged in whatever actions we want to and only after it is all over will our actions be reviewed and judged by God. Again, while the above theory seems very appealing and creative in nature it breaks down in realm of spirituality/Truth. We accept God as being the Creator of the entire universe and furthermore being present in every tiny corner of that Creation.

PrIdw Kwlku Klk mih Klk vsY rb mwih ]

Fareed, the Creator is in the Creation, and the Creation abides in God.

It is our own naiveness that we assume God may not be watchin our every move, or that even tho record of our actions is being kept it will not be analyzed and reviewed until much much later. This is far from the truth. The truth is that God is everywhere:

logw Brim n BUlhu BweI ]

O people, O Siblings of Destiny, do not wander deluded by doubt.

Kwilku Klk Klk mih Kwilku pUir rihE sRb TWeI ]1] rhwau ]

The Creation is in the Creator, and the Creator is in the Creation, totally pervading and permeating all places.

And more importantly He is watching over our every move:

Awpy krqw kir kir vyKY ]

The Creator Himself creates the creation, and watches over it.

So that being said, if God is omnipresent why would He have to rely on some sort of sub-judiciary agent (e.g. dharam raaj) at a later date to take account of our actions? God is not dependent on others to review our actions. He does it Himself, and is doing it as we speak! True judgement is not confined to some single day but is occuring every moment of our lives. That is the whole point behind the saying "we reap what we sow". We dont do good now so that we can get something after our bodily death, or something many thousands of years from now on some special chosen day, we do good now so we can feel good now, and help those around us feel good now as well. And god rewards us for our good actions now!

Thus i find it very hard to see any reason laced logic which could support the argument that one has to wait till after death for judgment day to arrive.

As a final note, not to discard everythin that was stated in the previous posts, i think at times many of us, regardless of how much love and respect we feel towards our faith, we tend to get stuck on literal interpretation of the messages of gurbani. We need to rise above this and realize that Sikhi does not follow the naive beliefs of other faiths, but instead is based on a completely new and vibrant philosophy -- gurmat!