Heaven And Hell

[randip singh]

(As per another thread accusing us of being very nasty to each other, I for one am going to be extra civil)

Piarya Piaray Randip Singh Bhaji Ji,

when Guru Sahib Ji says that they merged with AkalPurkh and became one with Him, then where does the "Human Guru" end and the "AkalPurkh" Guru start ?

148525[/snapback]

Two seperate and distinct concepts. I believe the Guru's were aware of the nature of God and how to reach God (they were exceptional men or Gurmookhs), but were not God's themselves.

The implication is that the Guru's were some form of demi-Gods or God's? A very Hindu concept. But if that is the way you wish to believe it then so be it.

[singh_khalsa]

brahmgyani aap nirankar hai

is the guru lower then brahmgyani? if the guru has all knowledge of god, then of course the guru knows everything! have you not read the shabadh praising guru gobind singh jee? if someone could please post that shabdh with meanings. the highest throne is below guru ji. even talks of the angels bowing to the guru's feet, so this shows that there is an afterlife with heavens and also that the guru is the highest who knows everything.

(some people do or do not believe a human can be brahmgyani, i do not know myslef, only guru ji does. so please dont turn this topic into a debate about people not allowed to be called sant or brahmgyani, start another topic if you feel the need to share your views about brahmgyani.)

[randip singh]

brahmgyani aap nirankar hai

is the guru lower then brahmgyani? if the guru has all knowledge of god, then of course the guru knows everything! have you not read the shabadh praising guru gobind singh jee? if someone could please post that shabdh with meanings. the highest throne is below guru ji. even talks of the angels bowing to the guru's feet, so this shows that there is an afterlife with heavens and also that the guru is the highest who knows everything.

(some people do or do not believe a human can be brahmgyani, i do not know myslef, only guru ji does. so please dont turn this topic into a debate about people not allowed to be called sant or brahmgyani, start another topic if you feel the need to share your views about brahmgyani.)

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No you are confusing the two things.

What you are saying ineffect is that our Guru's were Gods. That cannot be the case.

Our Guru's had knowledge of God, of his divine plan and pathways to God, but they were not all knowing like the one true God. Even our Guru's refrered to God and the ultimate Guru or Waheguru.

[Kharkoo4Life]

(As per another thread accusing us of being very nasty to each other, I for one am going to be extra civil)

Piarya Piaray Randip Singh Bhaji Ji,

when Guru Sahib Ji says that they merged with AkalPurkh and became one with Him, then where does the "Human Guru" end and the "AkalPurkh" Guru start ?

148525[/snapback]

Two seperate and distinct concepts. I believe the Guru's were aware of the nature of God and how to reach God (they were exceptional men or Gurmookhs), but were not God's themselves.

The implication is that the Guru's were some form of demi-Gods or God's? A very Hindu concept. But if that is the way you wish to believe it then so be it.

148535[/snapback]

two points:

1) Bundha about ur reference to difference between human guru and akalpurakh guru and how we can differenitate between the two when one has merged into the other u are right that two becoem one and we cant distinguish the two. Gurbani itself tells us this:

swD mUriq guru ByitE nwnk imil swgr bUMd nhI An hyrw ]2]1]117]

I have met with Guru Nanak, the Embodiment of the Holy Saints. When the drop of water merges into the ocean, it cannot be distinguished as separate again.

HOWEVER, the mistake we sometimes make is in assumin that the drop now has become the ocean. Yes the drop has merged into the ocean but it would be naive to assume that the drop itself is the ocean now. The drop is merely a small part of the ocean, it can not be called the ocean. Yes the drop has merged into the ocean, but so have millions of other drops, in if we call each drop the ocean, then we would have to say there are a million oceans. But we cant, cuz there is only one ocean. WHile any drop (human) can fully merge into the ocean (god) it would be a very grave mistake to now call the merged drop (brahmgyani) the actual ocean. WE must reconginze this subtle difference, or else we are bound to fall into the trap of other faiths and start worshipping our gurus (drops) as gods (ocean). ANd then isntead of the concept of Ik Onkaar we will have multiple GOds

(which is the mistake the hindhu dharam made)

2) I agree with Randip Singh. It is very imporant we realize the gurus were not gods but were gurmukhs merged in god. They were human beings like us, but the differnce was that they had become perfect (gurmukh). They had not even the slightest of flawas which average men like me are full of. We should respect the gurus by every mean, but not as gods but as perfect human beings whom we should model our lives after. That is why the gurus went thru 10 generations, to show us that any human being has the inner capacity to become just like them (a full gurmukh) and compltely merge with god.

But once we do merge into the ocean, we must not claim we have become the ocean. We should mainatin the same level of humilty which allowed us to reach this point. THat is why, guru nanak ALWAYS MADE SURE to distinguish himself as while being merged as one with god was not god himself. He always called himself Gods servant.

nwnk hir jn ky dwsin dwsw ]9]8]

Nanak is the humble servant of the slave of the Lord's slaves.

ibnvMiq nwnku dwsu hir kw qyrI cwl suhwvI mDurwVI bwxI ]8]2]

Prays Nanak, I am Your slave, O Lord; Your walk is so graceful, and Your speech is so sweet.

And as Randip SIngh rightfully pointed out, the gurus merely showed us the path to merge with god, nothing else. THye did not preach to us to worship them, or that they were god. NO. THey said use the guru (i.e. the gurus teachings) to guide u so that u can merge as one with god. And u may be surprised to learn, that Guru Nanak himself used the same gurus teachings (gurbani) to merge with god, that he left for us to use.

pRxviq nwnku dwsin dwsw gurmiq jwinAw soeI ]4]5]

Prays Nanak, I am the slave of His slaves; by Guru's Instruction, I know Him.

This last tuk of gurbani shud make it clear, that while guru is merged with god, THE GURU IS NOT GOD (jus like the drop is not the ocean). WE are not to worship the guru as god but to use the gurus teachings, jus like every guru used (including guru nanak) to help us merge with god. Jus like guru nanak got to know of the Lord with the help of the gurus teachings, so shud we do the same.

If not, we will be stuck in the point where we become more attached to the messenger than his message. And then like all other previosu faiths, the value of the message will become meaningless not matter how much we recite it or respect it for we will have not understood it properly.

May waheguru bless us all, that we can step free from this thinking and let the true message of the guru resonate in our lives.

[Jai Tegang!]

God is the extreme end of humility. Even when he comes in the form of Guru Nanak, he still does not praise himself, but Akaal Purakh, eventhough he himself is Akaal Purakh.

"Aap Narain kaladhar jag meh parvario".

[randip singh]

God is the extreme end of humility. Even when he comes in the form of Guru Nanak, he still does not praise himself, but Akaal Purakh, eventhough he himself is Akaal Purakh.

"Aap Narain kaladhar jag meh parvario".

148615[/snapback]

God being incarnated as human on earth is an alien concept to Sikhism my friend.

[singh_khalsa]

guruji and waheguru are one. now the ten gurus were humans and obviously had their own souls. but when guruship was passed to them they were transformed into satguru. they were now the true guru. and the true guru is waheguru himself. one thing kharkoo said was that you cannot tell the differnce as they are merged. (no need to argue about if the drop is the drop or the ocean, stick to your own personal views) so i didnt say we believe in the 10 gods. we know guru nanak dev is the shabad sri guru granth sahib ji.

bani guru guru hai bani

AMimRq sbdu AMimRq hir bwxI ]

a(n)mrith sabadh a(n)mrith har baanee ||

The Shabad is Amrit; the Lord's Bani is Amrit.

this is waheguru's bani. dhur ki bani. so as guru was the shabadh, and the shabdh was the true word from god, then that shows guru ji knows everything. think about it, god knows everything and its his bani that the guru showed us. and that bani shabdh is the guru, hence the shbdh ji knows everything.

[randip singh]

guruji and waheguru are one. now the ten gurus were humans and obviously had their own souls. but when guruship was passed to them they were transformed into satguru. they were now the true guru. and the true guru is waheguru himself. one thing kharkoo said was that you cannot tell the differnce as they are merged. (no need to argue about if the drop is the drop or the ocean, stick to your own personal views) so i didnt say we believe in the 10 gods. we know guru nanak dev is the shabad sri guru granth sahib ji.

bani guru guru hai bani

AMimRq sbdu AMimRq hir bwxI ]

a(n)mrith sabadh a(n)mrith har baanee ||

The Shabad is Amrit; the Lord's Bani is Amrit.

this is waheguru's bani. dhur ki bani. so as guru was the shabadh, and the shabdh was the true word from god, then that shows guru ji knows everything. think about it, god knows everything and its his bani that the guru showed us. and that bani shabdh is the guru, hence the shbdh ji knows everything.

148756[/snapback]

Interesting point but I think Kharkhoo's point about the drop and the ocean is valid. We have to be carful what we are saying otherwise we will fall into the Semetic trap where they argue who was the Son of Godd (ineffect God).

God resides within everyone of us. Every each one of us is capable of realising God and what God wants us to do, only if we listen to it. But can humans actually be a god, I doubt it very much.

In this same way the Guru's can be one with God i.e. they understand its form and nature and what it requires us to do, but they are not God themselves i.e. the all-knowing.

Does this make the Guru's any less. No. Infact it elevates them further, because as mortal men they were able to carry out Gods work (as opposed to God who was immortal). In this carbon based body they were able to grasp concepts far in excess of anyone else, and realms of existence that we could not comprehend.

The Guru's choose the word Guru very carefully, and described God as Waheguru. A Teacher teaches about the mysteries out there, as did our Guru's, but ultimately they all refered to one ultimate teacher or all knowing person called Wageguru.

[AK-47]

swD mUriq guru ByitE nwnk imil swgr bUMd nhI An hyrw ]2]1]117]

I have met with Guru Nanak, the Embodiment of the Holy Saints. When the drop of water merges into the ocean, it cannot be distinguished as separate again.

How did you ever draw that conclusion from the above quote!?

If something on merging with another entity becomes indistinguishable then how can you still refer to it in its orignal state?!???

if a drop of water cannot be distinguished as being seperate from the ocean ... then on merging with the ocean how can you identify it as a drop of water?

you have missed the entire point of the gurbani!

of course there are not millions of oceans (god) there is only the one and yes millions of drops (souls) will pour into or are part of that ocean, but once they merge they are no longer drops but become part of the ocean! nobody in their right mind refers to the oceans or seas as a collections of countless droplets of water do they? it is simply THE ocean or THE sea. water flowing into the oceans is not identified by its source ie that bit came from the thames, that bit is from the amazon etc. it is JUST THE ocean.

same way as when a gurmukh merges and becomes one with god, they cannot be distinguished as seperate (according to the gurbani above).

when we look at the ocean we do not look at the entire quantity of water (it would be impossible to do so) but we look at that quantity of water which is before our eyes and say 'this is the ocean'. same as while we cannot ever dream to see vaheguru in all his glory and quantity (he being limitless) when we see a real bhramgianni or satguru like guru nanak dev ji, we can say this is the ocean or this is part of the ocean ie part of vaheguru.

on merging the drop/indivdual looses the sense of self and homai. the body is irrelevant anymore. the individual drop no longer exists but forms part of the greater being. just like you could not identify a single drop of water once it had joined the ocean as any different from the rest of the ocean, in the same way you cannot differentiate between vaheguru and the souls that have merged and become one with him.

not a difficult concept at all.

ps guru sahib is samrath, all knowing and all powerful. there is no question on this concept.

if there guru did not know everything then there would be space for doubt. which means there is no certanity which would lead to errors and mistakes. in such a manner there could not be 100% truth.

hence if Guru Nanak Dev Ji is the satguru the true guru, then he is all-knowing.

simple

[randip singh]

swD mUriq guru ByitE nwnk imil swgr bUMd nhI An hyrw ]2]1]117]

I have met with Guru Nanak, the Embodiment of the Holy Saints. When the drop of water merges into the ocean, it cannot be distinguished as separate again.

HOWEVER, the mistake we sometimes make is in assumin that the drop now has become the ocean.  Yes the drop has merged into the ocean but it would be naive to assume that the drop itself is the ocean now.  The drop is merely a small part of the ocean, it can not be called the ocean.  Yes the drop has merged into the ocean, but so have millions of other drops, in if we call each drop the ocean, then we would have to say there are a million oceans.  But we cant, cuz there is only one ocean.  WHile any drop (human) can fully merge into the ocean (god) it would be a very grave mistake to now call the merged drop (brahmgyani) the actual ocean.  WE must reconginze this subtle difference, or else we are bound to fall into the trap of other faiths and start worshipping our gurus (drops) as gods (ocean).  ANd then isntead of the concept of Ik Onkaar we will have multiple GOds

(which is the mistake the hindhu dharam made)

148609[/snapback]

A very salient and thought provoking point!