Illusion Or Real?

[Mehtab Singh]

And yeah. For those who love to believe that the Gurus "died" while Jesus was resurrected, guess what! Guru Nanak Dev Jee's physical body was never found. All the Hindus & Muslims found was flowers. And Guru Nanak Dev Jee doesn't need to return because He never left us. He is there in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee! Whom do you go after? Someone who leaves you alone and goes to heaven saying "be right back"? Or someone who is with you eternally?

You decide...

[Jai Tegang!]

just to add on to Mehtab Singh's above post...many Mahapurshs (from different sampardas too !!) believe that the bodies of all Guru's never touched flame. Meaning, they would put the sareer on the pyre, but before it could be lit, the sareer would vanish. There is actually no mention of the sareer of any of the Gurus (all ONE jot ofcourse) ever being reduced to ashes.

This fact (if you believe it that is, if not, then no arguing) has been mentioned by Nanaksar mahapursh, Taksal Mahapursh, and probably other sampardas aswell.

If you want to know 'how' could they know this really happened. The answer is Dibh-Drishti (this is not some hindu stuff if that's your initial reaction, it is actually mentioned in Gurbani numerous times, Anand Sahib as just one example). These mahapursh who had Dibh-Drishti could see/experience anything and everything from any time period, and not just from this plane!!

Just thought i'd share this with the sangat.

[Rajs]

Dear Taboo,

Buddy, I ain't forcing my belief in Christ on to others, which Jesus never ever approved. As a former Sikh, I am just giving my opinion; providing an opportunity to ponder and discuss Sikhism theology and certain beliefs that Sikhs hold, as I did at one stage. I, myself, spent many years defending the Sikh faith and explaining it to others but more I looked into it, less tenable it became for me over time. A case in point, the first ever statement credited to Guru Nanak after his “enlightenment” states – “Na koi Hindu, na koi Mussalmaan.” Well, what did he mean?

1. He is neither Hindu nor Muslim.

2. Nobody is Hindu or Muslim but all are Sikhs.

3. God does not categorize people through their religion.

In all likelihood, Nanak, expressed the 3rd point of view through his statement. If so, then how could have Nanak initiated a new religion? He would have been contradicting his own stated principle. Furthermore, the prevalent view among Sikhs is that Sikhism teaches to respect all religions; and that all religions lead us to One God. Once again, this is a “cop out” for not able to handle any scrutiny and questions regarding one’s belief. Not all religions can lead us to same God because there are fundamental differences – BIG ONES.

I agree that faith requires some things to be accepted, which, logically speaking, cannot be explained. Well, that is fine. I agree that spiritual concept, such as faith, cannot be proven scientifically. However, there is nothing wrong in questioning held beliefs and seeking the truth. In my personal experience, I found the Bible and the life of Jesus, held up to my scrutiny and questioning, and provided me answers about – God, why did He create us? How we came to be? What happens after we die? Why I cannot do away with sin in my life? To whom am I accountable for my life? How can I relate to my Creator? What hope do I have to make myself stand before God, Does God care, etc. etc.?

For many years, I gave my Sikhism tenets, history, and theology, reasonable leeway to make room for faith. However, it not only left me with millions of unanswered questions but a feeling of utter hopelessness and a long path to nowhere. Like a Buddhist monk, I could have gone on reciting the Bani and chanting Kirtan day-in, and day-out. Like a Muslim performing his daily 5 prayers, I could have gone on reading Japaji Sahib daily and laced it with an Ardaas. I could have gone on taking part in many other ritualistic activities pertaining to Granth Sahib, such as, dressing it up, putting it to rest at night and awakening it in the morning, bowing down and throwing money before it. But it could have never set me free from my sinful nature that separates me from Almighty God. Sin is the crux of the issue. Since I was not able to reach God, God in his unfathomable love for me, reached out to me through Jesus. Not only are my sins forgiven because of Jesus’ death on the cross but I also get to partake in eternal life through Jesus’ resurrection, instead of living an illusionary life, as if in a Matrix, that somehow “merges” (whatever that mean) with God, if at all.

The fundamental difference is that Jesus died for my sins to redeem me, rather than giving out instruction to, “kirat karo, wand chako and, naam jaapo.” Jesus with his outstretched arms on the cross, reached out to me, which none of the Gurus had the capacity to do. The reality is that God created us with a purpose and provided a way out even after we lost our way because of sin. We are not in some absurd recycling process comprising of 8.4 million species, from which, we needed 11 Gurus to help us, breakout. How the heck did we end up in this cursed recycling process in the first place, no one seems to have any idea, whatsoever?

Regards

Rajs

[Rajs]

Dear Mehtab,

If Guru Nanak's body was never found, then how come the same didn't happen with other nine Gurus since they were all the same "jyote"? For e.g. Rakab Ganj gurdwara in Delhi is built where Guru Tegh Bahadur was cremated! Angitha Sahib in Nanded where Guru Gobind Singh was cremated.

Regards

Rajs

And yeah. For those who love to believe that the Gurus "died" while Jesus was resurrected, guess what! Guru Nanak Dev Jee's physical body was never found. All the Hindus & Muslims found was flowers. And Guru Nanak Dev Jee doesn't need to return because He never left us. He is there in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee! Whom do you go after? Someone who leaves you alone and goes to heaven saying "be right back"? Or someone who is with you eternally?

You decide...

148603[/snapback]

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

"In all likelihood, Nanak, expressed the 3rd point of view through his statement. If so, then how could have Nanak initiated a new religion? He would have been contradicting his own stated principle. Furthermore, the prevalent view among Sikhs is that Sikhism teaches to respect all religions; and that all religions lead us to One God. Once again, this is a “cop out” for not able to handle any scrutiny and questions regarding one’s belief. Not all religions can lead us to same God because there are fundamental differences – BIG ONES."

One point of view you forgot that is mentioned in history is that Guru Nanak addressed the "Hindus" and "Muslims" present, and told them that none of them is a real Hindu or Muslim, as they were all caught up in the ritualisms of their religion and had lost the true essence. In this context, it becomes perfectly clear why Guru Nanak Sahib started a new faith...beacuse the other faiths prevalent at the time were completely devoid of the divine path. Again, that is exactly what the Tav Parsad Sawiyae state that are read by a Sikh daily...to explain why a new faith was created and to explain to people that all the material possessions will not go with you.

As per a "cop out"...you have been presenting arguement after arguement and we have been countering everyone...whos copping out? Out of respect, I certainly have held back critizing your faith because it is not right to injure the beliefs of a religious person...unlike yourself, who has made it a point to attack another religion on its own forum (though, it is not working). There are plenty of things in the Bible, my Rajs, that are completely contradictory and backward compared to the pure message that is embedded into the four Gospels. The "Apostle" Paul (how he was an Aspotle is another question, as he was not amongst the 12 Apostles) makes many remarks that make you wonder if his views would be endorsed or condemned by Jesus himself. Sikhs respect other faiths, and out of respect, do not attack faiths. Now, we have and will continue to answer every challenge you present. Reason: Sikhs never posted challenges to the Brahmins when they were corrupting Sikh history...they will not make that same mistake with Christian missionaries (or Brahmins from this generation forth for that matter).

"Sin is the crux of the issue. Since I was not able to reach God, God in his unfathomable love for me, reached out to me through Jesus. Not only are my sins forgiven because of Jesus’ death on the cross but I also get to partake in eternal life through Jesus’ resurrection, instead of living an illusionary life, as if in a Matrix, that somehow “merges” (whatever that mean) with God, if at all. "

Here's a little secret for you. All the stuff you are saying...JESUS NEVER SAID!!! What you are quoting is the thrid perspective of 4 authors of the Gospel which were alive many years after the passing of Jesus. John, Luke, Matthew and Mark were people who were not present when Jesus were alive. When you state that Jesus is the only Saviour, that is John's statement, NOT Jesus. Jesus wasn't a lunatic that went around stating "Believe in me or go to hell". He went to place after place to point out hollow ritualism, to show mankind a holy way to live life and to condemn the Saducces/Pharases (forgive mis-spelling) for misleading the people. In fact, he never even preached a separate faith, but rather preached proper and right conduct. Where exactly is Jesus quoted saying that "I will forgive all of your sins if you believe in me." It is the Christians that "invented" many of the concepts that Jesus never intended. Read the Bible, where does it even mention the word Christian? When Jesus told his disciples that he will die...they cried out to him to save himself. He stated that it must happen..."Hukamai Ander Sabh Ko, Bahar Hukam Nah Koe" - everyone is under the will of the Almighty, nobody is outside of it...Jesus followed this concept that is present in Sikhism...but it is you who did not understand what you read daily like a parrot.

"The fundamental difference is that Jesus died for my sins to redeem me, rather than giving out instruction to, “kirat karo, wand chako and, naam jaapo.” Jesus with his outstretched arms on the cross, reached out to me, which none of the Gurus had the capacity to do. The reality is that God created us with a purpose and provided a way out even after we lost our way because of sin. We are not in some absurd recycling process comprising of 8.4 million species, from which, we needed 11 Gurus to help us, breakout. How the heck did we end up in this cursed recycling process in the first place, no one seems to have any idea, whatsoever?"

Yeah...big whoop...Guru Gobind Singh Ji sacrificed his entire family, his Kingly status and everything he had to the Khalsa Panth. I do not mean to demean anything Jesus did, but did he ever state that he was dying for your sins? Where in the Bible is he quoted as saying that he is dying for your sins? Where Guru Gobind Singh Ji himself wrote words that he was the Khalsa and the Khalsa was him and pledged that he would sacrifice everything for the Khalsa (which he then did), where is Jesus seen saying that? You will find that the Gospel authors make that assertion, not Jesus himself.

If your sins are purged by pledging alligance to Christianity, then the Sikhs are told the same by the Panj Pyare when they are given Amrit (you begin a new life that day with a clean slate, free from all sins and past Karmas...aka. the Guru forgives sins the same as Jesus).

Next, did Jesus tell you to steal, be selfish and not to remember the Almighty...those three concepts are also embedded in Christianity, though not using the exact same words. Now, as per your view that the "recycling process" being useless. Christianity does not define the reason for making humans or the earth either...what is the use? You come here, yell "I love Jesus" and die to go back to where you came from? Sikhism clearly states that this is not bound to rationalism (as no religion is) but rather is the Will of the Almighty to create the world and put on the play of the world, in which we are actors. It is the Almighty's game that very rare ones understand and accept and therefore, win. There is REASON present for our birth but you reject it because you cannot understand or accept it. Christianity does not present any reason for why humanity was created besides the Jewish based "God created man in his image, then Eve was made from Adam's rib, then they did not follow the rules, got booted from heaven etc.". What is the PURPOSE...there is a story, but no purpose...you claim there is a purpose stated in the Bible...go ahead tell me.

I challenge you to present quotes from the Bible to contradict anything stated above.

[japmans]

pyaareo!

this guy clearly only wants to answer certain people's posts

he has no answer to the "yahweh" point

no answer to anything ms514 singh sahib has written...

let's actually wait for a lil bit and see if he can even answer both these things... and as ms514 has asked... with proof from the Bible! this will show to everyone whether or not his arguments have any basis (even though as guru day sikh, sannu ta pata hai, that what he's saying is baseless)

[taboo]

Rajs,

Your post did not provide opportunities to ponder and discuss sikh theology because you concluded that jesus was the only way to get to god.

quoted from your original post

'Therefore, Jesus alone can unite us to God the Father because he came from God the Father and returned to Him to prepare a place for us, so that we can be where He is today – the King of kings, and the Lord of lords'.

A sikh is neither muslim or hindu, he or she is simply the seeker of truth.

and they seem to maintain themselves as how god made them (like not cutting hair)

And what makes them different from you n me is that they believe in the teachings of gurus.

quote Not all religions can lead us to same God because there are fundamental differences – BIG ONES

I disagree, the basic fundamentals of all religions are the same. to be good human beings, to be kind to our fellow people, to pray and to be spiritual. no religion teaches us to disrespect other religions, to murder, to cheat and i can keep going.

Sure there are differences and the differences are what separates us as hindus, christians, muslims etc.

QuoteGod, why did He create us? How we came to be? What happens after we die? Why I cannot do away with sin in my life? To whom am I accountable for my life? How can I relate to my Creator? What hope do I have to make myself stand before God, Does God care, etc. etc.?

all religions not just christianity have answers to these questions.

[buddasingh]

Rajs

Things are getting a little too serious here, so this song came to mind. Many of you kiddies aren’t old enough to recall bon jovi but it’s a classic…”you give jesus a bad name”

An angel’s smell is what you sell

You were promised heaven, then put through hell

Chains of guilt got a hold on you

When religions a prison, you can’t break free

You’re a lost pun

There’s nowhere to run

No one can save you, (not even jesus)

The damage is done

Chorus:

Lost in the dark

You’re all the same

You give jesus a bad name

You play your part and you play your game

You give jesus a bad name

You give jesus a bad name

SERIOUSLY Raj, take the above as a bit of a joke with a bit of truth. I’m not sure where to start kid. “You’re OK I’m OK”. Try that mantra for a while see if it helps you.

Why so insecure that you need to recruit? Does heaven await those who sell the most Jesus chocolates tonight? You’re making a mockery of the faith you proclaim and of yourself. Get a grip.

It’s going to be OK. Jesus loves you and so do Sikhs. Jesus forgives you and so do Sikhs. Why are you belittling the little bit of good that you might get from your faith?

[Mehtab Singh]

Dear Mehtab,

If Guru Nanak's body was never found, then how come the same didn't happen with other nine Gurus since they were all the same "jyote"? For e.g. Rakab Ganj gurdwara in Delhi is built where Guru Tegh Bahadur was cremated! Angitha Sahib in Nanded where Guru Gobind Singh was cremated.

Regards

Rajs

Even before you posted this question, Jai Tegang answered it. Let me paste his response

just to add on to Mehtab Singh's above post...many Mahapurshs (from different sampardas too !!) believe that the bodies of all Guru's never touched flame. Meaning, they would put the sareer on the pyre, but before it could be lit, the sareer would vanish. There is actually no mention of the sareer of any of the Gurus (all ONE jot ofcourse) ever being reduced to ashes.

This fact (if you believe it that is, if not, then no arguing) has been mentioned by Nanaksar mahapursh, Taksal Mahapursh, and probably other sampardas aswell.

If you want to know 'how' could they know this really happened. The answer is Dibh-Drishti (this is not some hindu stuff if that's your initial reaction, it is actually mentioned in Gurbani numerous times, Anand Sahib as just one example). These mahapursh who had Dibh-Drishti could see/experience anything and everything from any time period, and not just from this plane!!

Just thought i'd share this with the sangat.

[Mehtab Singh]

As a former Sikh, I am just giving my opinion; providing an opportunity to ponder and discuss Sikhism theology and certain beliefs that Sikhs hold, as I did at one stage.

So I was right. You ARE one of those...

I, myself, spent many years defending the Sikh faith and explaining it to others but more I looked into it, less tenable it became for me over time.

Rather than blame the religion, you should have dared to change your angle of observation.

God, why did He create us? How we came to be? What happens after we die? Why I cannot do away with sin in my life? To whom am I accountable for my life? How can I relate to my Creator? What hope do I have to make myself stand before God, Does God care, etc. etc.?

You continue to bother yourself with all that and waste your present, your precious breaths, life etc. etc. Just live your life loving God and singing His praises man. You won't need to bother about all this.

it could have never set me free from my sinful nature that separates me from Almighty God.

Thats what those evangelists make you feel - they make you feel guilty so that once they do that and break you from within, you are fresh and empty to accept whatever they have to offer.

Sin is the crux of the issue. Since I was not able to reach God, God in his unfathomable love for me, reached out to me through Jesus.

Kal taaran Guru Nanak aayaa!!! Guru Nanak came to save the world in the dark age of Kaljug.

Not only are my sins forgiven because of Jesus’ death on the cross but I also get to partake in eternal life through Jesus’ resurrection, instead of living an illusionary life, as if in a Matrix, that somehow “merges” (whatever that mean) with God, if at all.

Gurujee saves us from Dharamraj's accounts once we surrender ourselves to Him.

The fundamental difference is that Jesus died for my sins to redeem me, rather than giving out instruction to, “kirat karo, wand chako and, naam jaapo.”

Jesus (and I am saying this for the umpteenth time) died for you, alright! But he expected something in return. He expected you to follow only him if you wanna reach God. Is this like a deal or what? Love aint no deal! Its only about giving dude. And thats what Gurujee did. Guru Tegh Bahadur Jee never expected Hindus to become Sikhs when He sacrificed Himself.

Jesus with his outstretched arms on the cross, reached out to me, which none of the Gurus had the capacity to do.

Did you dare to fall at Gurujee's feet for even once? Gurujee accepted the worst sinners with open arms so stop this bs that you were not accepted.

How the heck did we end up in this cursed recycling process in the first place, no one seems to have any idea, whatsoever?

And how the hell can we be stuck in a "one-time offer"? Become Chistian or suffer eternally! Why is your concept of God so angry?

You are a very bat debater. You skip crucial questions from all of us, the questions you possibly can't answer. Its a waste of time to argue with you. I am sure you feel guilty after converting to Christianity and just want to mess up another brain so that you are not the oly one who feels the guilt, rather you got company. After all, guilt is what you evangelists use to brainwash naive people and lead them to believe that yours is the only way. Too bad this time its the same guilt thats bothering you.

Rajs, I don't know you personally (and I am not the least bit interested either), therefore any comment I make about you could very well be taken with a pinch of salt. Nonetheless, reading your posts and responses over here and on Sikhawareness, I can be sure that your debating skills are pathetic. You confessed yourself earlier on that you are an ex-Sikh, which confirms my view that either your are one of those sell outs, or you are feeling so severely guilty that in order to share this guilt with someone else, you want to mess up another brain and recruit them in your category as well.

We Sikhs don't have anything against Christianity or Jesus. I am an ex-Hindu myself who took amrit only 17 months ago. But I don't go on Hindu forums and bash the religion because I feel I have found the true path and am happy following it. I let them be happy following their faith and I stay happy on my track. I don't have any insecurities about Hinduism and so I don't need to waste time dissing it. You on the other hand have loads of insecurities about Sikhism, which is why you point those out as flaws in the religion. What a sad way to debate and argue!!

I don't think you are getting at any higher spiritual stage by dissing another religion. If thats the case, I don't think you have any authority to come out of the blue and portray yourself as one who has come with the truth which alone can save us "doomed Sikhs". We have enough fake saints to do that and trust me we are getting sick of them.

You were a Sikh who became a Christian. You found the truth in Christianity, although you probably didn't go deep enough to understand Sikhism in the first place. But then again who am I to bother with that. You stay happy on your track and let others stay happy on theirs. Pointing fingers at things you don't fully know, or you don't understand will only raise the leve of your ignorance. So all I have to say to you is "Be the best Christian you can"! At the same time, let us be the best Sikhs we can. Since you claim to have found the truth in Christianity, why not spend time contemplating and following it rather than coming on cyber forums and teaching us what to do? You may cover up all this by saying "I just want to discuss", but dude, discussion would have been possible when you were still a Sikh and learning. Then things would have been different and your questions would be taken as querries from a seeker. Now that you've "found the way" and changed sides, any discussion from your side will turn into an inter-religious debate which usually gets nasty. So the solution is practise the truth that you claim to have discovered, and allow us to enjoy the gems and diamonds our Gurujee has blessed us with. If you are really guilty abot what you have done, you are always free to retrace your steps back. Jesus loves you right? Gurujee says Khalsa meri jaan ki jaan - Khalsa is the life of my life. So its still not too late bro.

Peace

ps: Before I forget! The best poster award goes to ms514 veerjee! :TH: :WW: