Dont Want Khalistan

[ThirdRound]

In my opinion, the first thing we need to lose is this idea that Hindus and Muslims are our enemies, they are our brothers. The idea that an independent Punjab (call it what you like) will only be home to Sikhs is small minded. Sikhs are not oppressors, when Maharaja Ranjit Singh ruled, he did not exclude Hindus or Muslims. Through out history there have been many great civilizations but very few that were tolerant of others. That is the difference between us and the governments that oppress us. If in the struggle for freedom, we start to act like our oppressors, then there is no point. We MUST hold onto our morals and values, only then will we be truly happy.

Currently, the world is going through a period of change. This is similar the changes that took place just before the two world wars. Certain countries are emerging as global powers while others are doing anything and everything to keep the current world order in place. Within the next 50 years many things will change, but weather that means the emergence of an independent Punjab or not is questionable. Is there opportunity, yes, will we as a people take this opportunity, only time will tell.

Social change is revolution, revolution is organization, if we as a people are not able to organize our thoughts and ideas we will, and also deserve to be left behind.

I do not believe in the name of Khalistan because it by default excludes everyone else, just like Hindustan. But I will use it for now. For Khalistan to be successful, I believe we must obtain at first both sides of Punjab. Once we have that, we should make a push for Kashmir and then Sind. But the only way we will be successful at this is if we include all our brothers regardless of religion.

Many people will argue that no Muslim or Hindu want to join a Khalistan. My answer to that is, they will if we had something better to offer them then what they have now. India and Pakistan also oppress there own communities not just the minorities. If Khalstan is truly free to everyone regardless of there religion, then we will have no problem expanding it.

[Jai Tegang!]

The response by "thirdRound" is so typical of our spineless "Sikhs", who now form the vast majority. Always looking for points to destroy the need for Khalistan. All of sudden they turn into these great humanists who worry about about what the moslems and hindus would feel. Get a reality check. Sikhs are part of that samll group of people who don't have a nation of their own. Even the weakest and poorest people have countries of their own.

and btw, since when has Khalsa oppressed others? Why even bring that up? Look at your bloody history and figure out who's been doing the oppressing.

It's damn pathetic that so many sikhs today will be more than happy at finding reasons why we SHOULDN'T have khalistan. How much more murder, rape, humiliation do you need to wake up? An entire generation of Sikhi youth was wiped clean, and still we have "sikhs" who think khalistan is a bad idea.

wake up, or step aside.

[Guest DKI]

I havent followed this discussion properly and after reading the reply from sikh_supreme i decided that i would not involve myself in it any longer as there is no realistic thought being applied here. However, after then reading the reply from ThirdRound i feel the need to make a couple of more comments.

I think general viewers of this forum need to be wary of people who seem to be deliberately trying to confuse the issue of Khalistan. First of all, the Muslims of what is now West Punjab are overwhelmingly indigenous to that land. No matter what you or any other person says, Punjabi Muslims are not foreigners to Punjab. They are just as native to that land as Punjab's Sikhs are and Islam has existed in Punjab since at least the 8th century when the Arabs invaded the region.

The Punjab and Punjabis are not a nation. The Punjab province you find on maps which has a territory comprising areas from Attock all the way to Delhi was created by the British for their administrative purposes. Even at one time during the British rule what is now Pakistan's NWFP was also apart of British Punjab before it was separated into a new province. The British Punjab does not equal Khalistan and it is not even the Punjab of Ranjit Singh, which did not include many areas of the present Indian state of Punjab (in Malwa) which has a Sikh majority population.

Anyway, Punjab's division between Pakistan and India was a mutual agreement that had actually been advocated first by the Sikhs and the Sikhs were the most vociferous supporters of the division of Punjab when the demand for Pakistan had been conceded. The exchange of populations between India and Pakistan was also agreed by the leaders of the time. Therefore, there is absolutely no legal or any other basis on which Sikhs could lay any claim on West Punjab. In fact, the only boundary dispute when it came to the Punjab's partition favoured the Muslims since Gurdaspur, a district which had a Muslim majority in 1947, had been awarded to India.

Second of all, West Punjab has a population of around 80 million which is like 98% Muslim. Any union of Khalistan and West Punjab would reduce Sikhs to a tiny minority who could never form any kind of substantial influence or majority in the government of such an entity. But then again, there is no point of going into a long debate on this as it simply wont happen. Neither will the idea that the Sikhs will conquer West Punjab and that 80 million Muslims will abandon Islam for Sikhism in the name of some kind of "Punjabi brotherhood". I am surprised to read these kind of comments in what should be a serious discussion.

Also, i find it strange that ThirdRound started his message by saying that Sikhs should not be oppressors etc but then goes on to say that Sikhs should eventually "make a push for Kashmir and Sindh". Again, do you really believe this is going to happen, let alone happen successfully?

Khalistan issue is so simple. Sikhs, being a nation, cannot anymore live as part of the Indian Union which has betrayed them and virtually declared war on them on a number of fronts. So, Sikh majority areas should be merged and then cede from India to form a new country called Khalistan. Sure, Khalistan will have minorities, but so what? That should not be a problem even when it comes to self-determination since majority decision rules, and a majority decision in favour of Khalistan is only going to occur in the area where Sikhs are in majority, i.e. Punjab and some of the Punjabi-speaking areas of neighbouring states that have so far been deliberately kept separated from Punjab. To sum up, this is what will realistically be Khalistan.

Feel free to disagree, but at least if you do disagree be realistic in your approach.

Regards,

[Akali]

are these ppl who are doubting khalistan telling me they r sikhs? cuz if they are, then are they telling us that the ardaas a sikh does every day like 50 times a day is false?? dont they rem "raj karega khalsa"? man if u dont believe that then u aint a sikh and u need to get outa here cus this is SIKH SANGAT!

Raj Karega Khalsa. Firstly, reflect on what that means. How many pure Khalsa are out there? How many people on SikhSangat could with hand on heart say that they are proper Sikh's the way the Sikh's of years gone by were. From personal experience, I know only TWO sikhs who follow the religion properly. Now thats saying something.

The primary aim for us at this time is to make the Khalsa Panth strong again, Get all the lost sikhs onto the right path and stop them from taking intoxicants as Sant Jarnail did. In the eyes of God, we are failing. We need to care about our fellow brothers and sisters and ensure that they follow the wonderful path of Sikhi. Once this occurs, the Panth will be strong again and when this occurs, we will show ourselves worthy of obtaining Khalistan and Waheguru would look down on us and with his grace we would obtain Khalistan.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

[Revolutionary]

Feel free to disagree, but at least if you do disagree be realistic in your approach.

:lol:

[sikh supreme]

Jai Tegang!, Im with you on this, completely agree...

DKI and ThirdRound,

I maybe more of a nationalist than a sikh in terms of this issue because I believe both Muslim and Hindu rule should be removed from our holy land, as it is haveing an adverse effect on the people of that region. Look at punjab right now rife with drugs, alcholism, prostituion and female infantocide, beacuse religion is sidelined and secularist forces are at play. And on the other side of the border you have the sanctioning of gang rapes by tribal leaders mixed with muslim fundamentalists suppressing the rights of women to have education and being equal members of society.

Anyway, Punjab's division between Pakistan and India was a mutual agreement that had actually been advocated first by the Sikhs and the Sikhs were the most vociferous supporters of the division of Punjab when the demand for Pakistan had been conceded.

I disagree, Sikhs did not advocate the seperation or partion of their homeland, punjab. If you check the history books Sikhs violently protested against the division of Punjab. I believe the proposals for khalistan or sikhistan came directly after jinnah's muslim league proposed pakistan, a seperate state for muslims.

The name Khalistan was first used by Dr Vir Singh Bhatti of Ludhiana in 1940, to counter the Muslim demand for the creation of Pakistan, a sovereign state for Muslims. In his pamphlet, Dr Bhatti demanded the formation of a buffer state between Pakistan and Hindustan, comprising areas including Patiala, Jind, Nabha, Faridkot, Kalsia states and Malerkotla, Simla, Jullundur, Ambala, Ferozpur, Amritsar, Lahore, Lyallpur, Gujranwala, Sheikhupura, Montgomery, Hissar, Karnal of the British Punjab.

Having said that Hindu's and Muslims would be quite welcome to live in a future khalistan and get treated just like another other citizen of a country. But like israel we need to retain a quota for number of non-sikhs to sikhs there can be in the state.

For too long khalistan ideologues and leadership have been concentrating their energy on seperation from the Indian state. When in fact it is pakistan with their Islamic ideology and muslim fundamentalists that poses the biggest danger to our faith and the progress of the people in the region.

DKI, how do you purpose a half a kilo Khalistan (present borders of Indian punjab) able to sustain itself as a viable sovereign state? Against hostile forces (pakistan, india, kashmir [when/if its independant] ) surrounding it? It might work for the short term but sooner or later these hostile forces will engage militarily with khalistan and it will be overwhelmed. Therefore wider borders with bigger land mass is essentional for a viable long term state.

Like I said the best solution is for the break up of both countries. They both have insurgency movements to contend with....breakup of superpower USSR was achived, as was of yugoslavia in the balkans.

We can await our time, theres no big rush for us to get khalistan like next day or something. And old saying goes "rome was not built in a day" the same can be said about Khalistan, it will not be built overnight either.

[ThirdRound]

I would like to thank all those who have posted back to my post with intelligence and respect. Those who try to insult others “spineless Sikhs” only show there own ignorance and as a result, I will not be responding to them.

It is clear that at some point my view has been lost, so let me clarify. I am in support of an independent Punjab, but at the same time do not want it to be an exclusive state only for Sikhs. I believe that the name Khalistan indirectly excludes others based on religion, hence I do not like the name (this is my opinion, and if anyone can give an educated argument for the name, I will reconsider my opinion).

I also agree with those who have stated that the current state of Punjab India is not big enough to be a successfully country and a key world player. To re-unite both Punjabs (in my opinion) with force is not a real option because it would lead to years of war and terrorism. The first 10 years of Khalistan will be the most difficult, to spend it in a war will be a great setback and there is no guaranty we will win. So that only leaves one option, to include all residence of both Punjab into Khalistan as equals, much like Maharaja Ranjeet Singh did. When I say to make a push for Kashmir and Sindh, I say this becase A) the Khalistan I invision will not oppress people of other religions, so the majority Kashmiri Muslims will not fear being discriminated against and B) because whoever controls Kashmir controls the water in Pakistan and Northern India, it is vital that we “Sikhs / Hindus / Muslims of Khalistan” do so. The reason why I say we also make an effort for Sindh is because it will provide us with access to the ocean.

This then leads into another question, of what type of government Khalistan should have. A democracy (majority rule) does not work, in my opinion. What ends up happening is the different political parties try to manipulate the general population with propaganda in hopes of there votes. The majority of people do not have the time to keep up to date with relevant information, so they fall victim to the false information. Communism leads to mass corruption and abuse of power. We must find a combination of the two to create an ideal state.

There are many other question we must consider, but I’ll leave it at this for now. Those who have argued that this is all fictional and hence pointless, I say please do not respond then. After World War 1, no one thought Germany would ever re-immerge as a world power. In 1940, England seemed to be doomed, no nation thought it would survive. No one knows what will happen in the future and nothing is guaranteed. My opinions are my own and they may never come to pass, but I am voicing them in the hopes of starting an intelligent discussion. None of us know who anyone else is that posts on here, some may be freedom fighters who have lost a lot for the idea of Khalistan, to insult them because they do not agree with you is very disappointed.

[buddasingh]

...........

I am in support of an independent Punjab, but at the same time do not want it to be an exclusive state only for Sikhs. I believe that the name Khalistan indirectly excludes others based on religion, hence I do not like the name (this is my opinion, and if anyone can give an educated argument for the name, I will reconsider my opinion).

Before we speak of educated arguments for the name Khalistan… With respect, I don’t see your argument AGAINST the name holding up.

As for educated argument FOR the name, no need to search far for the education. Simply ask what does Khalsa stand for with respect to other religions. Khalistan is a name which embraces other faiths more than any existing country name in the world.

[ISDhillon]

i dont have a problem with a seperate state, but i do have a problem with the name khalistan, its sounds like a paki country, why cant we be original with our names i prefer the name "sarbat". :TH:

[singh_comradz]

lol