To N30 Singh

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Learner Singh

I see you make the same assumptions as Lallevari about there being no such thing as Hinduism. I won't ask you what the Gurus and the Bhagats were referring to when they used the term Hindu as I think you will use the same technique as Lallesvari and ask me to read some book by Richard King.

You didn't actually answer my question ?

Do you regard ALL the Gurus as having the same Jot as Guru Nanak ?. If so then why ask for a reference where Guru Nanak refers to his disciples as Sikhs ?. Doesn't the fact that the other Gurus refer to their disciples as Sikhs not the same thing as Guru Nanak calling his disciples Sikhs ?

Also any chance of letting me know what relevance your c&p of Gurbani quotes had to do with the discussion ??

As for the assumptions on Ego, well you accused me of suffering from Ego yet it didn't stop you claiming to have defeated all the vegetarians on the forums

GurFateh

Bikramjit

[Guest Akaal108]

Charan Amrit was administered by the Guru Sahiban up until the time of Guru Gobind Singh Sahib. Charan Amrit involves washing the feet of the Guru to administer the Amrit to the disciples.

ms514 you claimed the above..

I completely disagree with you. Charan amrit was not started by guroo nanak sahib nirankar but it was there for long time.. the fact baba farid, bhagat kabir, bhagat ravidas and ramanand existed before guroo nanak sahib nirankar and all got charan amrit from their murshad/guroo. And once attained vaheguroo they did give same charan amrit to their students. Though we consider baba farid, bhagat kabir, bhagat ravidas, ramanand etc sikhs dont we????

[ms514]

Sat Sri Akal:

Sorry, must clarify. Charam Amrit for the SIKHS was started by Guru Nanak Sahib.

Back to the point. Our murshad, as you call it, is the Panj Pyare. They are the only ones who can initiate a member into the Khalsa Panth. That is the only initiation rite given by the Guru Sahiban to the Sikhs.

If you can point to one indiviual who is equal to the Gurus, then I will say take Charan Amrit from them and follow their ways. If not, then who are they to give out Charan Amrit?

[Guest Akaal108]

Sat Sri Akal:

Sorry, must clarify. Charam Amrit for the SIKHS was started by Guru Nanak Sahib.

Back to the point. Our murshad, as you call it, is the Panj Pyare. They are the only ones who can initiate a member into the Khalsa Panth. That is the only initiation rite given by the Guru Sahiban to the Sikhs.

If you can point to one indiviual who is equal to the Gurus, then I will say take Charan Amrit from them and follow their ways. If not, then who are they to give out Charan Amrit?

The point i m making... udhasi who still beleive in charan amrit are no different than me and you.. they are Sikhs as well period. Just like bhagats (above mentioned who took charan amrit before guroo nanak sahib nirankar) are in siri guroo granth sahib are sikhs!!!!!!!!!.

[jagjit_waheguru]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Pyare jio, I originally did not wish to get into this debate as their seems to be quite a few hidden agendas here. But some points do need claifying, so if I may:

1) Baba Attar Singh was not influenced by Nirmales thought, eventhough he may have attended some schools in early childhood. Baba Ji was actually in the Panch khalsa Diwan, which was responsible for cleaning alot of wrong practices in Gurdwaras during the Gurdwara Sudar lehar. Other members included Babu Mal Singh ji, Bhai sahib Randhir Singh, and I also believe Baba Vasakha Singh etc, at various times. They were the cream of the Panth and were all considered the Tat Khalsa, deviod of Snaatan Sikhi thought.

2) Learner Singh - the article you have added on religious co-existence is good, but completely off the subject. Sikhi does believe and has demonstrated co-existence for centuries. But that has nothing to do with what Veer Bikramjit Singh and veer N30 are talking about. Similarly your shabads are also out of context, and please when putting on shabads, put the Gurmukhi on aswell. Translations do have alot of mistakes in them.

Veer Bikramjit Singh is questioning the fundamentals of Snaatan thought which are fundamentally flawed when compared with basic Gurmat idealogue. Mention of Udasis, is fine, baba Siri Chand was an exceptionally abyassi individual. However his thought was rejected by Guru ji. Sikhi has many fundamental attributes, seva, simran, abyass, humility, the list is endless. Part of that is Hukam. This is very important. Sahib Siri Guru Nanak Dev ji accepted and embraced his sikhs, who followed hukam. That was why Sah

ib Siri Guru Anjad Dev Ji was the next Guru and not baba Siri Chand. baba Siri Chand had plenty of opportunity, but did not come up to the required level which Guru Ji wanted. Reference - all the Guru jis sakhees of transfer of Guru doom.

This is what it comes down - every sikh should work towards every Virtue. The mool Mantar is a description of God, but if a sikh is truely and sincerely a pujari of God, then the Mool mantar may also be a description of his/her virtues aswell. Similarly a sikh should always be ready for any seva which Guru ji placed before his sikh, whether it is paath, keertan, tabla, joorian de seva, langar, dirty pandee, gathka, lecture, cleaning toilets, helping others, shaheedi, etc. An excellent book, probably the best I have read so far, on sahib Siri Guru Gobind Singh ji is "Sahibe kamal" which was actually written by an Arya samajist, but none the less an excellent book on Dasmesh Pitta and his philosophy. The more you read Guru jis bani, it is clear, he wanted to create a clarity of vision, free of any dogmatic ritualism, divisions, etc, to present a khalsa, a race of pure saint soldiers. To think that Guru Ji created various sampardays, etc, is ludricous, and against his thought and bani. That is exactly what he wanted the humans beings to get away from.

Guru ji just created the khalsa, which has every possible virtue in it. Nothing more, nothing less, the khalsa is complete. Snaatan thought is nothing but a re-introduction of another form a castism, under the umbrella of a different name.

You ask who knows what sikhi is, this is a strange. Sikhi is bani. " Guru Moorat Guru Shabad Hai", "Bani Guru, Guru Hai bani, vich Bani Amritsare", etc, etc. Both of you seem like intelligent lads, but I get the impression you are taking historical texts, and trying to fit bani around them , when you should be taking Gurbani, and historical texts are only relevant when they do not contradict Gurbani. They Guru would never do anything that contradicts Gurbani.

Also yo

u conveniently avoid all the bad things that Nirmalas, Udasis, etc, have done against Sikhs and the Guru Khalsa Panth in our history.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[>Bikramjit Singh<]

Sat Sri Akal:

Sorry, must clarify. Charam Amrit for the SIKHS was started by Guru Nanak Sahib.

Back to the point. Our murshad, as you call it, is the Panj Pyare. They are the only ones who can initiate a member into the Khalsa Panth. That is the only initiation rite given by the Guru Sahiban to the Sikhs.

If you can point to one indiviual who is equal to the Gurus, then I will say take Charan Amrit from them and follow their ways. If not, then who are they to give out Charan Amrit?

The point i m making... udhasi who still beleive in charan amrit are no different than me and you.. they are Sikhs as well period. Just like bhagats (above mentioned who took charan amrit before guroo nanak sahib nirankar) are in siri guroo granth sahib are sikhs!!!!!!!!!.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fat

eh!!

N30 Singh

I don't think you understand the point that ms514 Bhaji is making. After 1699 there has only been one form of Amrit, Khanday Di Pahul and the fact that you still consider those who take Charan Amrit as 'Sikhs' shows that you believe that your opinion is higher than that of Guru Gobind Singh. I don't know whether your views on Charan Amrit are your own or whether they are shared by the Taksal but as far as I am aware the Taksal does not consider Charan Amrit as a valid form of initiation.

Jagjeet Waheguru

You are quite right, there are agendas at work here. There is a conscious attempt to undo the work of the Singh Sabha and bring back into Sikhi all the anti-Gurmat and Hindu influenced sects. One Nang fool even posted once that the four Sampardhyas ( yes 4, N30 not 5 ) should take over the Akal Takht even by force. The fact that this Nang wasn't even born a Sikh and is more influenced by Shia Islam than by Sikhi. He even posted on a Shia Muslim forum that he considers 'mainstream' Sikhs as Bas*ards and has more in common with Shias.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

[V]

The fact that this Nang wasn't even born a Sikh but is a gora and is more influceced by Shia Islam than by Sikhi. He even posted on a Shia Muslim forum that he considers 'mainstream' Sikhs as Bas*ards and has more in common with Shias

Posting link would be appreciated ..

thank you

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Guest Akaal108]

N30 Singh

I don't think you understand the point that ms514 Bhaji is making. After 1699 there has only been one form of Amrit, Khanday Di Pahul and the fact that you still consider those who take Charan Amrit as 'Sikhs' shows that you believe that your opinion is higher than that of Guru Gobind Singh. I don't know whether your views on Charan Amrit are your own or whether they are shared by the Taksal but as far as I am aware the Taksal does not consider Charan Amrit as a valid form of initiation.

You really have ways with twisting word purkha

Let me remind you... I dont think my opnion is highter than guroo maharaj ji.. but its the SGPC decision who is complete control of akaal taktha claims that: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20021210/main7.htm

If you have any queries regarding that matter..Please free to contact them personally!!!!

My main focus was tolerance and acceptance within sikhs on this topic. This seems not to be working.....but i ll keep trying anyhow...never give up gurughar dii seeeva..

[V]

N3O bhaji

u never replied my queries :

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

yesterday gabroo khalistan keep swearin on shiv ji maharaj for some reason when guroo

please provide link

maharaj praises them.....

Them? was shiva a plural amount of people

providing quotes on Guru JI praising the Hindu Gods would be appreciated

elaborate please.............. :T:

otherwise i think its a good thing u take the Good things out of everything and filter out the "Bad" Ones

BHull CHukk maaf

[Gupt_Singh]

The fact that this Nang wasn't even born a Sikh but is a gora and is more influceced by Shia Islam than by Sikhi. He even posted on a Shia Muslim forum that he considers 'mainstream' Sikhs as Bas*ards and has more in common with Shias

Posting link would be appreciated ..

thank you

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

if u want to see the real lalleshvari go to www.shiachat.com he posts under the name "bahadur singh" or something similar......

have a look there and u will see his views include:

cutting hair other than head and dhari is ok, and those who dont are "extremist"

muta (sp?) is ok (thats prostituion in islam basically)

sgpc and akjs are "<admin-profanity filter activated> b****rds"

etc etc loads of funn

y stuff

look hard enough and u will find a picture of him and 'kamalroop' (the infamous geezer i have heard is a super nang) at some muslim shia event - he looks white, i dunno, but whatever he is he sure looks funny....i know its harsh to laugh at people but i hav 2 sumtimes

o and guru nanak gave 3 rules when charan paul was given. dont cut ur hair, do amrivela, serve other gursikhs. udhasis cut their hair (iv seen pics of them with cut hair) and do not serve other gursikhs (they renounce everything) and they dont take khanda di paul so they are NOT sikh!