Meat In Doncaster

[khalsa s1ngh]

i have heard off sikhs in doncaster, that in sum gurdwaras there they make meat on weddings and on sunday at the gurdwara, does any one kno of this

[tarunjeet singh]

any news

[Revolutionary]

seems kinda hard to convince them.. clearly they think that meat is acceptable in sikhi..

how about talk to the committee about this? Or at least the granthis and the sangat?

[heart]

Honestly, What is the world coming too? Where do people come up with such Misconceptions?

[TemptAsians]

Honestly, What is the world coming too? Where do people come up with such Misconceptions?

i suspect that is true, i have seen some gurdwara where meat is served it the langar hall they even sit on chairs and tables and eat it for example in southampton Gurdwara Tegh Bhadar Sahib St. Marks Rd it happens they eat it with no shame i was disgusted i asked for a veggie breakfast and they gave me a just a plate of beans? For a meat eater they had bacon, sausages, eggs & blackpudding.

The problem is education the mentality is the bigger the Kara you wear the more Sikhi you are, eating meat is fine but not beef? Its ok to drink but not smoke? Some people stay religous on a tuesday but other days its back to the wild ways? People tend to make up the religion for themselves and state they are Guru Nanak Dev Ji Sikhs? As Guru Nanak Dev Ji didnt state that a Sikh must have the 5k's keep hair or finalise Khalsa, I think they mean they dont follow the other 9 Guru's Or the GGS but yet get married in front of the GGS!

Its So Annoying!!!

[kurtas]

Honestly, What is the world coming too? Where do people come up with such Misconceptions?

i suspect that is true, i have seen some gurdwara where meat is served it the langar hall they even sit on chairs and tables and eat it for example in southampton Gurdwara Tegh Bhadar Sahib St. Marks Rd it happens they eat it with no shame i was disgusted i asked for a veggie breakfast and they gave me a just a plate of beans? For a meat eater they had bacon, sausages, eggs & blackpudding.

The problem is education the mentality is the bigger the Kara you wear the more Sikhi you are, eating meat is fine but not beef? Its ok to drink but not smoke? Some people stay religous on a tuesday but other days its back to the wild ways? People tend to make up the religion for themselves and state they are Guru Nanak Dev Ji Sikhs? As Guru Nanak Dev Ji didnt state that a Sikh must have the 5k's keep hair or finalise Khalsa, I think they mean they dont follow the other 9 Guru's Or the GGS but yet get married in front of the GGS!

Its So Annoying!!!

Hope it is Jhatka.

[TemptAsians]

Honestly, What is the world coming too? Where do people come up with such Misconceptions?

i suspect that is true, i have seen some gurdwara where meat is served it the langar hall they even sit on chairs and tables and eat it for example in southampton Gurdwara Tegh Bhadar Sahib St. Marks Rd it happens they eat it with no shame i was disgusted i asked for a veggie breakfast and they gave me a just a plate of beans? For a meat eater they had bacon, sausages, eggs & blackpudding.

The problem is education the mentality is the bigger the Kara you wear the more Sikhi you are, eating meat is fine but not beef? Its ok to drink but not smoke? Some people stay religous on a tuesday but other days its back to the wild ways? People tend to make up the religion for themselves and state they are Guru Nanak Dev Ji Sikhs? As Guru Nanak Dev Ji didnt state that a Sikh must have the 5k's keep hair or finalise Khalsa, I think they mean they dont follow the other 9 Guru's Or the GGS but yet get married in front of the GGS!

Its So Annoying!!!

Hope it is Jhatka.

what difference does that make?

[kurtas]

Honestly, What is the world coming too? Where do people come up with such Misconceptions?

i suspect that is true, i have seen some gurdwara where meat is served it the langar hall they even sit on chairs and tables and eat it for example in southampton Gurdwara Tegh Bhadar Sahib St. Marks Rd it happens they eat it with no shame i was disgusted i asked for a veggie breakfast and they gave me a just a plate of beans? For a meat eater they had bacon, sausages, eggs & blackpudding.

The problem is education the mentality is the bigger the Kara you wear the more Sikhi you are, eating meat is fine but not beef? Its ok to drink but not smoke? Some people stay religous on a tuesday but other days its back to the wild ways? People tend to make up the religion for themselves and state they are Guru Nanak Dev Ji Sikhs? As Guru Nanak Dev Ji didnt state that a Sikh must have the 5k's keep hair or finalise Khalsa, I think they mean they dont follow the other 9 Guru's Or the GGS but yet get married in front of the GGS!

Its So Annoying!!!

Hope it is Jhatka.

what difference does that make?

Read the 1980 Hukumnama from the Akal Takht which settled the meat issue for all those who believe in the concept of the Akal Takht and the underlying principes of Miri Piri etc.

[SaRpAnCh]

Meat is meat some sikhs say dont eat beef but chickens ok just want to point out that we are not cow worshippersAdapted from an article by a Sevadar of Gurdwara Tapoban Sahib

The Panthic Sikh Rehit Maryada makes it clear that the four Bajjar Kurehits for a Sikh, which result in apostasy from the Sikh faith are as follows:

1) ਕੇਸਾਂ ਦੀ ਬੇ-ਅਦਬੀ

2) ਕੁੱਠਾ ਖਾਣਾ।

3) ਪਰ-ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਜਾਂ ਪਰ-ਪੁਰਸ਼ ਦਾ ਗਮਨ (ਭੋਗਣਾ)।

4) ਤਮਾਕੂ ਦਾ ਵਰਤਣਾ।

The four transgressions, which must be avoided are 1) Dishonouring the hair, 2) Eating Kuttha, 3) Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse, and 4) Using tobacco.

The question is, what is Kuttha? While Sikh scholars have defined Kuttha in modern times to mean "meat slaughtered in the Muslim way" or "Halal meat", this is not a correct interpretation of this word. If we want to have a proper understanding of "Kuttha" it is best to look to Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

The word "Kuttha" appears in Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee a number of times. Kuttha can have two meanings: either to butcher, kill or destroy or alternatively, it can mean meat (the product of killing, butchering, destroying).

A word that operates similarly is "ਮੁਠਾ " It means to loot or steal, but it also refers to the product, which is something stolen or obtained through bad means.

ਕੂੜੁ ਛੁਰਾ ਮੁਠਾ ਮੁਰਦਾਰੁ ॥ (24)

Here it refers to the product of stealing i.e. the "loot"

ਨਾਨਕ ਠਗਿਆ ਮੁਠਾ ਜਾਇ ॥ (142)

Referring here to looting or the act of being looted.

The root of the worth "Kuttha" is "Kutthaar" or axe.

ਗਾਵੈ ਜਮਦਗਨਿ ਪਰਸਰਾਮੇਸੁਰ ਕਰ ਕੁਠਾਰੁ ਰਘੁ ਤੇਜੁ ਹਰਿਓ ॥ (1389)

Parasraam the son of Jamdagan, whose axe and powers were taken away by Raghuvira, sing of Him.

The question that immediately comes to mind is, if Kutthaar is the root of Kutthaa, when has an axe ever been used in Halal meat? A sharp blade is used, but never an axe. An axe is used to give swift blows whereas in Halal, the knife or blade is used to slice the throat.

Looking at how "Kuttha" has been used in Gurbani we have the following example:

ਇਕੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਦੁਯਾ ਕੁਠਾ ॥ (321)

Does this mean that the love of duality will be "Halaled"? Or does it mean that the love of the other will be destroyed/ killed? Clearly it can only mean to destroy or kill. Halal would not make sense here. Referring back to our example of "muthhaa", just as the act of looting produces "loot", here, the act of killing or butchering will produce something butchered (meat). It is illogical to suggest it will produce "Muslim meat".

The example often used to suggest "Kutthaa" refers to Muslim meat is

ਅਭਾਖਿਆ ਕਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਬਕਰਾ ਖਾਣਾ ॥ (472)

But clearly, as opposed to standing in support of Kutthaa meaning "Halal" this tuk is strong proof that Kutthaa means only meat. If "Kutthaa" meant "Halal meat" then there would have been no need or reason to qualify it with "ਅਭਾਖਿਆ ਕਾ". Abhaakiyaa refers to the Muslim Kalma, which is recited when butchering animals for Halal but is "un-utterable" for Hindus as it would convert them to Islam. If Kutthaa means "Halal" then this translation would be "Kalma-Halal meat." That's completely redundant as Halal is by definition with the Kalma. But because Kutthaa is just "meat", it required "abhaakhiyaa" to show it's a reference to Muslim meat here.

Animal being slaughtered

Let us look at the different translations

Sant Singh Khalsa translates this tuk as:

abhaakhiaa kaa kut(h)aa bakaraa khaanaa ||

They eat the meat of the goats, killed after the Muslim prayers are read over the,

He clearly has shown that "Kutthaa" was goat meat but became "Muslim" because of "abhaakiya" or the Kalma. "Abhaakiya" was necessary to make it "Muslim meat".

Bhai Manmohan Singh translates as follows:

abhaakhi-aa kaa Kutthaa bakraa khaanaa.

He eats the he-goat killed by uttering the foreign (Muslim-Kalma) words.

ਪਰਦੇਸੀ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਉਚਾਰਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਮਾਰੇ ਹੋਏ ਬੱਕਰੇ ਨੂੰ ਉਹ ਖਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ।

Here once again, the translation qualifies just a killed goat (Kutthaa) with abhaakhiyaa (kalma) to take the meaning of Halal. Otherwise Kuttha here is just meat.

Freedkot vala teeka defines it as follows-

ਅਭਾਖਿਆ ਕਾ ਕੁਠਾ ਬਕਰਾ ਖਾਣਾ ॥ ਚਉਕੇ ਉਪਰਿ ਕਿਸੈ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ॥

(ਅਭਾਖਿਆ) ਮਲੇਛ ਭਾਖਾ ਅਰਥਾਤ ਕਲ ਮੇਂ ਰੂਪ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਕਾ ਮਾਰਾ ਹੂਆ ਬਕਰਾ ਖਾਣਾ ਕਰਤੇ ਹੋ ਫੇਰ ਕਹਤੇ ਹੋ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਚੌਕੇ ਉਪਰ ਕਿਸੇ ਨੇ ਜਾਣਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਭਾਵ ਕੋਈ ਨ ਜਾਓ ਚਉਕਾ ਅਸੁਧੁ ਹੋ ਜਾਵੇਗਾ॥

It is clear that the translation says it's just "ਮਾਰਾ ਹੂਆ ਬਕਰਾ " but because of "abhaakhiyaa" it is "(ਅਭਾਖਿਆ) ਮਲੇਛ ਭਾਖਾ ਅਰਥਾਤ ਕਲ ਮੇਂ ਰੂਪ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਕਾ" ie. Muslim Kuttha.

So it is now perfectly evident that "Kutthaa" by itself means only meat. To signify "Mulsim meat" Guru Sahib used to adjective "abhaakiya ka". Without it, the term would have meant only butchered meat.

To summarise, the root of "Kuttha" is "Kutthaar" or axe. A word that operates like "Kuttha" is "muthha" which refers to the act of looting and also the product of looting i.e. "the loot". In this way, Kuttha can mean, "to butcher/ kill/ destroy" and also refers to the product i.e. "butchered meat". It cannot by any means refer to Halal meat or Muslim meat."Everything is life! Microorganisms are in water, air etc. When you drink water, cut vegetables, or chop down wheat, you are taking the lives of living things. Is it murder and killing? Who says there is difference in life... there is killing in cutting vegetables which have a souls as with an animal."Everyday we kill countless organisms just through breathing or stepping, but that is much different than Kuttha. Kuttha is the meat of an animal that has been 'butchered' and then 'intentionally' eaten.

The reason why a Sikh doesn't eat meat is not related to 'ahimsaa' or "respect for all life" like the Jains. The reason is 'daya'. Mercy evaporates when we butcher and eat meat. A carrot may have life but it will never run away screaming when you go to the garden to get it. Guru Sahib is clear in Gurbani that life must sustain itself on life. There is no lack of mercy or daya (mercy) excercised when cutting a vegetable as it does not reacts to being cut. Contrast that with animals. These animals beg and cry and little calves cling to their mothers in terror when they sense they will be slaughtered. The word "gardener" has no pejorative connotation. The word "butcher" on the other hand stands for someone who has no mercy. If one's heart doesn't melt at seeing the shrieks and anguish of animals, why would it matter when a human does the same? Why is it Muslims can do Halal on humans? It's because they have so much experience with animals that the jerking, gasping of dying animals and blood is something usual for them. A butcher will have the heart of a butcher. A butcher can never be a 'Dharmi' (spiritually pious) person.

The concept of "Jhatka" as it is known today is a Hindu one borrowed from the Rajputs who still do it today and have done it for ages before the Sikhs. Proponents of this practice explain this concept as a "Singh" cutting the head of a goat with one blow while shouting a Jaikara (the cry of "Sat Sri Akal" (God is True)). But in Gurbani we are faced with the question:

ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹੁ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਅਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥

ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਸਾਈ ॥2॥

"You kill living beings, and call it a righteous action. Tell me, brother, what would you call an unrighteous action? If you religious people are doing "religious" killing for meat, then what is A-dharam (atheism)? If you are a religious person then whom will we call a butcher? ||2||"

(Ang 1103)

"Doctors say eating meat is healthy - you get vitamins and good things - so there are benefits in eating meat, like with anything its about how much you eat."

The health aspect we all know and there are lots of resources on the Internet on this issue. One site, which highlights the main risks of eating meat, is: Gurbani tells us:

ਬਾਬਾ ਹੋਰੁ ਖਾਣਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥

ਜਿਤੁ ਖਾਧੈ ਤਨੁ ਪੀੜੀਐ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥1॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

"O Baba, the pleasures of other foods are false. Eating which, the body is ruined (i.e. are unhealthy), and wickedness and corruption enter into the mind. ||1||Pause||"

(Ang 16)

The fact is that a human's own flesh is exactly like that of meat. Observing surgery or perusing internal medicine books, one notes that we are the same substance. That's why Guru Nanak Sahib jee has said not to hate meat. We are meat. But at the same time we cannot eat it because it would be like eating a dead body. It's foul and really unthinkable.

MEAT IS MEAT BEEF AINT SPECIAL ITS THE SAME AS CHIKEN OR ANYTHIGN ELSE

[kurtas]

Sarpanch

Just respect the Akal Takht Hukumnama on the issue. If you do not want to eat meat then refrain (like me) but do not pretend there is religious compulsion to do so.