SARBLOH

[Niranjana]

Dear Summeet Kaur Jeeo!

GUR FATEH!

Thanks for the kind words!

I will answer your questions in full in due course, please in the interim consider the following points, which I had provided on similar topics elsewhere on the forum:-

Yours,

Niranjana

Vaheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Vaheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

A question was raised on another forum about attending Churches (which I would expand to include all other places of worship) as a Sikh. A common recurring theme was that one can do so, but shouldn’t engage in reading another scriptures or praising their leaders with the use of some Savaiyae, Dohras and Chaupais from the Dasam Granth.

Please find my comments below address to the forum members on this topic, I post these here for feedback from members of this forum who may not be part of the other discussion. As always I look forward to receiving your feedback, corrections, improvements or expansion on any of these points.

Humbly,

Niranjana

NOTE REFERRED TO:

You mentioned the Savaiya “Pahein gahey jabtay tumray...”

from Ram Avtar, Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, as a means to indicate that we as Sikhs of the Guru only recognise the authority of Akal Purakh and none other, indeed as we declare in our commitment upon taking Amrit and our address of “Vaheguroo Ji Ka Khalsa” [The Khalsa is sole property of Vaheguroo alone].

However, if this is to indicate that we cannot partake i

n reading and sharing the knowledge of other religious and spiritual traditions, please could you explain the meaning of the following lines also from Ram Avtar.

“Ram Katha Jug Jug atal, sub ko baakath net...” [The Story of Ram (Ramayan) is timeless and should be read by all...]

Guru Ji then later expands this upon to say...

“Jo eh katha suney aur gaavey, dookh paap nikat naa aavey, Bishen (Vishnu) bhagat ki eh phal hovey aad beyaad sva shkay naa koy”

These lines are regularly recited in the Sampuran Rehras on a daily basis.

Just to side step a little further, I recall that during the dark 80’s in Punjab, many a Kattar-Sikh took physical efforts to ensure that the villagers in Punjab would not watch the televised serial Ramayan to avoid the spreading of ‘Hindoo Baasha”, yet the above mentioned dohras were being read aloud regularly at the Darbar Sahib!

Anyway continuing from my earlier point, let’s also consider the Chaupai you referenced:-

Chaupai

“Ma naa Ganesh pritham manaaoo Kishen Bishen kubhoo naa diaaoo

Kaan suney Pachaan naa tinso Liv laagee mori pug inso

Maha Kaal Rakvaar hamaaro Maha Loh ma kinker Thaaro...”

Your translating the terms Maha Kaal and Maha Loh simply into Lord is incorrect. These are terms derived from Tantric lore, Maha Kaal being literally Great/Powerful Death or Great/Powerful Time and in Shakat iconography refers to the more horrid and fearsome forms of Shiv Ji. Maha Loh, is to my knowledge a uniquely Sikh term (compare to Shiva, Chandi, Sarabloh etc) but derived from Shakat terminology again. Literally it would be rendered as Great/Powerful Iron/Weapon, traditionally like Sarabloh, it is a reference to the Devi...the coupling of the terms together is typical of Guru Ji, just as in the Bachiter Natak, when he uses the terms “MahaKaal-Kalika” and in the Sri Sarabloh Prakash he mentions “Bhagwati and Bhagwant”.

Before expanding upon this, let us also consider the Savaiya again...

Savaiya <

br>

"Pahein gahay jabtay tumray, tab tay kou aankh taray nahi aanyo.

Ram Rahim Puran Qoran anek kahay mut ek na maanyo.

Simarat Shastra Bed sabai bahu bhed kahai hum ek na jaanyo.

Sri Asipaan kripa tumri kar mai na kahyo Sabh toh bakhaanyo."

Ram Avtar, Dasam Granth, Guru Gobind Singh.

Ever since I have grasped Your feet, I have not thought of anybody else.

I do not accept the doctrines enunciated by various faiths, believing in Ram, Rahim, Puranas and Qoran.

The Simritis, Shastras and Vedas mention different concepts but I do not subscribe to any of them.

Respected Sword-bearer (Sri Asipaan), with Your Grace, all that has been uttered by me has been done under Your command.

The present day version of the Rehras in addition to shortening the Benti Chaupai to 25 stanzas omits the Arill and all dohras and chaupais between there and the above mentioned. This rectification occurred during the Singh Sabha reforms of the late 19th and early 20th century. Interestingly, if one looks at closing stanzas which are excluded from the standard version of the Chaupai:

kirpa kari ham par jagg mata. granth kara puran subh rata.

kilavikh sakal deh ko harta. dusht dokhian ko chhai karta. (26)

sri asidhuj jabb bhae diala. puran kara granth tatakala.

man banchhat phal pavai soi. dukkh na tisai biapat hoi. (27)

The [divine] Mother of the World bestowed her grace on us. Thus the Granth was completed in an auspicious manner. The Lord removed all the bodily afflictions. The Creator destroyed all our wicked enemies. (26)

When the Respected bearer of the Sword Banner (Sri Asidhuj) became compassionate: The Granth was completed instantly! He [who receives the divine grace] alone achieves the desired goal (phal, "fruit") of his life; and no pain can affect him in anyway. (27)

I personally find the sole reason for the exclusion of these lines to be the reference to the divine "Mother of the World" (Jugg Mata) which clearly has been misunderstood

by the Singh Sabhias as a reference to and veneration of the Devi Mata (the goddess Bhavani, Chandi, Durga, Kali or Jugdambay). Whilst the use of the term Mata (and even Jugg Mata) is frequently found in the Sri Guru, as a reference to the feminine aspect of Akal, it is understandable why the Singh Sabhias in their paranoia of Hindoo influences saw fit to even cut Guru Ji’s Bani.

The ironic thing is that they chose to exclude all other Dohras that occur in the Rehras maintained in various forms by the Taksalis, Nihangs, Nirmalas, Nanaksar and Thakt Hazur Sahib but keep the Savaiya mentioned above, which on the face of things seems to be discrediting all Semetic and Indic (to generalise traditions into 2 main camps) traditions, literature and ideals, however let’s look at the terms Asidhuj and Asipan. As I have mentioned earlier and discussed elsewhere on the forum, these terms cannot be translated simply as ‘Lord’ or ‘God’, they refer to the bearer of the Sword-Banner and the bearer of the Sword-Arm, respectively. Again, these are tantric terms found in Shakat ideology and also in that of Mahayana Buddhism with graphic paintings and statues of the Asidhuj or Asipan, that is the Devi herself in one of her many manifestations or forms.

Now clearly in the style of Gurbani, these terms are used as symbolic language and are not references to the Devi as such, but to the functional qualities of Akal, pointing verily to Akal alone, just as the reference to Jugg Mata at the end of the full Benti Chaupai Sahib does...unfortunately for those who can only see things literally, such foolish actions as to cut the words of Guru Ji to fit their own agendas are undoubtedly going to occur.

Forgive any harsh comments and/or incorrect analysis, please kindly offer correction where you feel it justly deserved.

Gur Fateh!

Niranjana.

p.s. I am not suggesting that we should partake in all ceremonies and observances of other traditions or paths, however to display respect for the Jesu

s, Sants and other Bhagats I do consider fine and correct protocol for a Khalsa Singh, afterall “Eh Tirsra Mazrab Khalsa, Upjio Pradhana!”

Gur Fateh!

Thanks for this, in my post (the blue coloured one!) I expressed a similar notion that iron being a metal which is cheap and easily available to all, counters the likes of gold, which predominantly feature in most brahmanical traditions. By this, I mean, two things, firstly iron symbolises strength (for obvious reasons) and secondly humility in that it is available to all regardless of their social standing –this, I personally believe to be ‘one’ of the many reasons for the use of terms such as Sarab Loh and Maha Loh in Dasam Bani as metaphors for Akaal.

On the point of strength, similarly I find that the inclusion of the sarabloh kirpan and sarabloh kara in the 5Ks to be a direct parallel to the requirement under brahmanic traditions to wear 5 items of gold (sorry, I don’t have references to hand for this) –in the latter case, all one does is worry about being mugged or attacked, hence weakening their state of mind, with the 5 K’s in particular the Sarab Loh elements, one feels empowered to defend themselves and others...

To touch on the bibeki element briefly, one thing I’ve always found interesting are the Scythian People. In ancient Europe they are believed to have worshiped the sword as a manifestation of power. Archaeologists have found graves believed to belong such people where the deceased have been buried with a sword and a small metal cauldron...this may be premature on my part, but the first thing that comes to mind is the notion of Sarabloh Shaster and Sarabloh Bata (Degh, Tegh...)

GUR BAR AKAAAAL!

[Summeet Kaur]

Wow Thanks for this jee (!), I recall reading through this on the 'can I go to church' thread.

It just makes so much sense..being cheap it's pragmatic for all Sikhs, it certainly keeps that simple aspect alive in us, what use is it if half of us can't afford gold, plus as you state what strength is there in gold??

Empowering us to defend others..I don't think I have anything left to say (lol!) Guroo jee thought of every, single detail..'SATGUR MERA POORA'

An interesting point about the ancient European people, it just goes to show the universal nature of Sikhi, so many connections exist, all kirpa & kudrat. Just to get off the topic and show another case in point, the Wiccan people always refer to 'Mother Earth' as a high power, the Native tribes even worship the sun, moon, animals, etc..connected with what we recite every day:

pavan guroo paanee pithaa maathaa dhharath mehath ||

Air is the Guru, Water is the Father, and Earth is the Great Mother of all.

I would love to discuss more of these relations in another thread, thank you so much for seeking/learning with me!!

Yours,

Summeet Kaur

[jagjit_waheguru]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Pyare jio, naranjana, Baba Ram Singh nam dhari was a strict sarblohi. I read it in a book of his jeevan, based upon some of his letters, and accounts.

Unfortunately, the book was borrowed from me and never returned, so I am unable to give you the ISBN number.

He had no link with nihangs as far as i know, plus he was an ultra-strict vegetarian, hence the movement for burning butcher shops in Amritsar.

Please stick to facts and aviod word association. Also Hindu mythology is used in Gurbani extensively, as analogues, in a language which many understand. Similarly Guru sahib used numerous languages, and cultural backgrounds to explain his message. But we are not pujaris of devtas. We are pujaris of Shabad Guru. Sikhi does not accept the soap opera of hindu mythology, just uses it for examples of good morals, and examples.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Niranjana]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Pyare jio, naranjana, Baba Ram Singh nam dhari was a strict sarblohi. I read it in a book of his jeevan, based upon some of his letters, and accounts.

Unfortunately, the book was borrowed from me and never returned, so I am unable to give you the ISBN number.

He had no link with nihangs as far as i know, plus he was an ultra-strict vegetarian, hence the movement for burning butcher shops in Amritsar.

Please stick to facts and aviod word association. Also Hindu mythology is used in Gurbani extensively, as analogues, in a language which many understand. Similarly Guru sahib used numerous languages, and cultural backgrounds to explain his message. But we are not pujaris of devtas. We are pujaris of Shabad Guru. Sikhi does not accept the soap opera of hindu mythology, just uses it for examples of good morals, and examples.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Gur Fateh!

Bhai Sahib Jagjit Singh Jeeo,

Thanks for your reply. Again, I ask for the reference, I don’t need a ISBN number, which letter or hukamnama indicates Baba Ram Singh being a Sarablohi?

Please do not take this as a disputing question, I simply wish to have some evidence to back this up, for Naamdharis are strict in following

Baba Ram Singhs every hukamnama and we would have seen some relic of this in existence today, that said, the fact that they couldn’t except his orders that he wasn’t a Guru is well documented, however Naamdharis are aware of this and provide their side of the argument.

As per Sarablohi bibek, I haven’t come across this mentioned in any Naamdhari sangat or any book on the movement (The Kuka Movement, Warriors in White...). I simply wish to have a reference, perhaps you could give the name of the Book or the Author –this much you must surely know, if you owned the book.

As per links with Nihangs, yes the Naamdharis deny this on account of his strict vegetarian stance, however I didn’t say the entire movement was Nihang, Baba Ram Singh was influenced also by the Udasis and Nirmalas such as Baba Balak Singh and the vegetarian reforms took a hold. [For the record, I am NOT a Nihang or anything else! However I AM a strict lacto-vegetarian...just to put at rest and thoughts of speculation about any ulterior motives].

The Nihang linkage can be seen in many ways, his style of turban, the keeping of weapons in his modified-dhumala, the use of Chandi Path, Havans, recitation of Akal Ustat, Chandi di //, Chandi Chrittr and Ugadanti.

This continues to be maintained by Naamdharis to this date –in fact I personally enjoy hearing the manner in which they recite bani and sing Kirtan .

Also, of the first 5 Pyare present when Baba Ram Singh began performing Amrit Sanchar, one was a Nihang Singh (dressed in white, as blue was rejected under the influence of Baba Balak Singh and strict vegetarian et al).

I am not saying Baba Ram Singh or Naamdharis are Nihangs, simply that prior to coming under the influence of Baba Balak Singh and setting up the Kuka Movement he was of Nihang origin. It is true that later Nihangs attacked the Naamdharis, but this another matter. For further reading p

lease see Dr Ganda Singh and Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha on the topic of Naamdharis.

Bhai Sahib you asked me to “stick to facts and avoid word association†please could you elaborate on this as I find that you have misunderstood my comments as mere ‘word-association’ and not seen matters within the context I have provided.

For instance, you say “Hindu mythology is used in Gurbani extensively, as analogues, in a language which many understandâ€, well if you read my posts again, you’ll find that they follow this line of thought precisely!!! I am simply expanding on the ‘understanding’ of the ‘mythology’ behind the words so as to better ‘understand’ the shabds in question, translating MahaKaal as LORD is an error and simply incorrect! It is the legacy of Protestant Christian scholars spreading their personal agendas through their ‘remarkable’ work for the Panth in giving to them their history as we hear so often.

You then go on to make another statement in agreement with my post that “Guru sahib used numerous languages, and cultural backgrounds to explain his message. But we are not pujaris of devtas. We are pujaris of Shabad Guruâ€. Again, all I wish to do is ‘understand’ the “languages†and the “cultural backgroundâ€, I am in NO way suggesting we be or we are “pujaris of Devtas†nor am I suggesting that we “accept the soap opera of hindu mythologyâ€.

I appreciate the opportunity to interact with you on this point, however I request that you too please stick to facts and avoid word association, simply because I make mention of the historical legacy that lies behind things such as Sarabloh, doesn’t mean I am saying Sikhs are Pujaris of Kalika or Durga...

Forgive any foolish comments,

Niranjana

[jagjit_waheguru]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Pyare jio, thats fine veer ji.

I think you will find what most Namdaari sangat actually do, and what Bhai Ram Singh preached is very different. mainly based on how they treat him. I believe Bhai Ram singh to be a very accomplished Gursikh.

The letters to which I refer where written by him, when he was in jail, due to British. It has been a while since I read it, but I believe he was sent to Rangoon. Either he or possibly Bhai Maharaj Singh ji, another jeevan wale gursikh, who fought against the british. His jeevan katha was very similar so forgive me for confusing the two.

Bhai Ram Singh wrote many letters telling the sangat what to do. He protests quite vigourously about the way the Namdaari sangat had started equated him to a Guru. He wished the sangat to only treat him as a Gursikh. These letters were scan copied, and printed in the book.

Then the book went into detail about him, his lifestyle, where it mentioned his daily routine, including sarbloh, also his level of abyass, and how he did parchaar.

It was a very good book. Hopefully, i will meet that Gursikh again who borrowed it from my little library, and I will read it agian.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Niranjana]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Pyare jio, thats fine veer ji.

I think you will find what most Namdaari sangat actually do, and what Bhai Ram Singh preached is very different. mainly based on how they treat him. I believe Bhai Ram singh to be a very accomplished Gursikh.

The letters to which I refer where written by him, when he was in jail, due to British. It has been a while since I read it, but I believe he was sent to Rangoon. Either he or possibly Bhai Maharaj Singh ji, another jeevan wale gursikh, who fought against the british. His jeevan katha was very similar so forgive me for confusing the two.

Bhai Ram Singh wrote many letters telling the sangat what to do. He protests quite vigourously about the way the Namdaari sangat had started equated him to a Guru. He wished the sangat to only treat him as a Gursikh. These letters were scan copied, and printed in the book.

Then the book went into detail about him, his lifestyle, where it mentioned his daily routine, including sarbloh, also his level of abyass, and how he did parchaar.

It was a very good book. Hopefully, i will meet that Gursikh again who borrowed it from my little library, and I will read it agian.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Gur Fateh!

Bhai S

ahib, thanks for your response. I note what you are saying, however we are now getting off the question asked.

As indicated earlier, yes the present day views of Naamdharis do not fully coincide with those of Baba Ram Singh, who I personally find to be an amazing Gursikh and formidable Warrior in all senses of the term.

I'm sure he could have been a Sarblohi given his Nihang background, however as I say, this is not something I have ever come across in my contact with Naamdharis (of varying types) or in any of my readings of his rehitnamas or historical accounts such as Fateh Singh Bajwa's Kuka Movement.

All accounts extensively mention his practices as such Chandi Path, Lathi Raksha, Cow protection, Butcher Massares, Self-sufficiency, 'real' respect for women and on so and so forth. The only relic of dietry bibek I have come across within the Naamdharis is their insistence to use water from natural sources (not taps) and strict lacto-vegetarian stance.

I appreciate you not having your references to hand, I would be grateful if you could keep me in mind when you do receive the book back or otherwise discover the Sarablohi reference. In the meantime, should the name of the author or title of the book come to mind, please do provide this information.

Thanking you,

Niranjana

[jagjit_waheguru]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Bhai niranjan, strange how you just assumed Baba Ram singh had a nihang background? Not that it matters, but it is an assumption. I just asssume everyone is part of the Guru khalsa Panth. That is what they are dedicated to and sacrificed for. Wy do groups insist on having names of great sikhs attached to them. It does not prove anything.

Anyway something interesting I found out today from my local GP. He is an english doctor.

We were discussing iron defficiency.

He said many people can have this. Usually we get most iron from red meat, but as sikhs are vegetarians, they lack this.

Iron is need apparently in heamoglobin in the red blood cells. If your body is lacking it then, it can cause fatigue.

We discussed foods that have iron, he recommended beetroots, leafy vegetables.

I mentioned in India, some sikhs have for centuries been eating out of iron bowls, and even cook in them. He became fascinated by this. He said that was amazing. These people must have known about how important iron is to balance a vegetarian diet. Cooking and eating in iron bowls, will surely help balance this out.

He was just amazed how people naturally have done these things over time.

This is not to push sarbloh on anyone. I am not myself. Just some interesting thoughts. Any other knowledgeable medics who can confirm or deny this.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[Sherneekaur]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

To find out more about Sarbloh 'Sikh Soldier' post your question on http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/list.ppa?f=1 which was already mentioned before by jagjit_waheguru. The Singhs on the site know exact answers to your question.

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

[r.singh]

A biologist once told me about the benefits of cooking in iron. He was a gora. He said that people used to cook in cast iron much more in the past and that this was quite beneficial for increasing iron levels.

The katha by Baba Nihal Singh on the panthkhalsa site mentions some history of sarbloh rehit. It's quite interesting. It's in the Bibek section of his lecture.

http://www.panthkhalsa.org/BabaNihalSinghJi/index.html

[Niranjana]

Waheguroo Jee Ka Khalsa!

Waheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!!

Bhai niranjan, strange how you just assumed Baba Ram singh had a nihang background? Not that it matters, but it is an assumption. I just asssume everyone is part of the Guru khalsa Panth. That is what they are dedicated to and sacrificed for. Wy do groups insist on having names of great sikhs attached to them. It does not prove anything.

Gur Fateh!

Bhai Sahib Jagjit Jeeo, 'how strange' you fail to notice the references I cite (see Dr Ganda Singh, as he references Baba Ram Singh' Nihang background).

Again, I have not denied the Guru Panth Khalsa...however seeing that you cannot handle the variety within the Guru Panth, you seem to be concerned about some sort of agenda I have...Bhai Sahib to put your fears at rest, I am NOT a Nihang or a Naamdhari or anything else...I haven't questioned the Guru Khalsa Panth or Baba Ram Singh or any other Gursikhs contribution...you're comments are clearly emotionally motivated and frankly irrelevant...

...I mention his nihang background solely as an academic, for want of a better word, observation as it ties into many of the practices he brought forward (as I have stated numerous times in the foregoing posts)...I an NOT "trying to prove anything"...seems as if you are quite paranoid Bhai Sahib.

..ki gal???

Again, I am not part of any 'GROUP' or whatever you wish to term it, I am however a part of the Guru Khalsa Panth as are all Sikhs...I guess, if things don't suit 'you' they are assumptions...assuming things makes and '<admin-profanity filter activated>' out of 'u' and 'me'...

Guru Raakha,

Niranjana