What Can U Categorize As Idolizing?

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

singh ji,

a picture is worth a thousand words, but the mother doesn't know if her son is eating on time, if he's happy, is he strong, is he coming home soon, does his son remember her, does he think about her?

pictures of family are great, but if guru is baani, what picture are we looking at? i'm not aginst pictures, but pictures of gurus are imaginary. yeah guru sahib had a beard, a dastaar, and panj kakaars. yet the image of the guru is the guru panth khalsa. when one takes amrit, and adorns the five kakaars, he himslef adorns the roop of guru sahib and look in the mirror, you are guru roop guru khalsa ji. your a walking image of guru sahib. that's the beauty of the picture guru sahib painted for the world. guru sahib lives on, his eternal form is khalsa.

khalsa mero roop hai khaas.

women who take amrit are also the image of guru sahib. so why should we only see guru sahib with a beard? the whole khalsa, men and women, are guru sahib's roop.

i'm not here to inflate my ego singh ji. i'm just trying to give you another perspective. a perspective, which for me, came about after reading gurbaani and also the blessing of being around great gursikhs. i was raised in a typical punjabi family which stood in front of pics of gurus with hands folded everyday. i thought, man sikhi is so hallow. that's it, this man with a white beard and a maala, this is our religion. i didn't get teh rue taste of sikhi from any picture. but when i had the chance to start reading gurbaani, WOW, i realized the glory of my guru. i saw the shabad as the true guru as the guru I heard about but never could see in a picture.

Cursed is the painter who has tried to capture our guru's beauty with a brush. the shabad is so immaculate that any picture doesn't even portray 0.0000001% of our guru's glorious virtues.

see, once you start reading gurbaani you realize how we attach ourselves to such small things when in reality God has given us much much bigger things to see his glory. the aarti shabad which is read tells about how the vast forests are the flowers for the aarti, the wind does the chaur sahib, the stars suns etc are the jots, the whole world is doing akaal purakh's aarti. the image of guru sahib in khalsa ji, what a grand painting we see everyday in the company of five khalsa sikhs.

once you read gurbaani daily, these pictures almost seem like an insult. just like God's virtues are limitless, our guru sahib is the ultimate perfection. i have yet to see a painting of perfection. How does one paint perfection? how does one capture the eternal light on canvas. no one ever will. how cheapening is that our guru sahib's attributes were capable of being captured on a painting?

well, i'm sorry if i may have offended, again, the only source we can trust is shabad guru. because our mat changes from decade to decade, even day to day.

hopefully we can continue discussing in a polite and non-aggressive manner.

peace.

[N30S1NGH]

When Guru's were in deh form, sikhs(devotee's) used to do arti of sri guru maharaj, it's a form of respect maharaja's in indian tradition but guru maharaj being majesty kings of kings more you do sharda less there is since guru gobind singh ji gave gurghaddi to sri guru granth sahib ji, sharda of hazoori sikhs (sikhs from hazoor sahib) have not changed, it's still same... still sikhs do arti of sri guru granth sahib ji maharaj, because final guru- sri guru granth sahib ji and with pyar and sharda throw flowers at sri guru granth sahib ji. giving royal treatement to sri guru granth sahib.. as i said more you do sharda less there is.

This has nothing to do with idol worship/hindu ritual(parnoia) if someone ignorant one doesnt get the concept of "arti" which is meant for only kings, true kings- in this case- sri guru granth sahib ji, then its not the fault of ritual, its a fault of tunnel minded thinking.

[N30S1NGH]

No where, in Guru Maharaj teaching, pictures are encouraged or discouraged. Yes idol worship are discouraged. However, art(kalan) in Sikhi is quite welcome. Fact - 68 poets, artist stayed in Guru Maharaj darbar and appreciated.

You want to take things further , lets take things further, lets see the logic behind black and white sikhi:

Ok you want to ban the pictures because people are vulnerable to idolize them? ok fine ban them.

People are also vulnerable to "idiolize" - guru maharaj relics, shastars, mala's, chola, nishan sahibs, rumale of sri guru granth sahib, chaur sahib(in fact i have seen people bowing their head on chaur sahib), nagara, ganga sagar( i have seen lot of people matha taiking to ganga sagar when ganga sagar was shown in gurdwaras in toronto )????

You want to ban them too just because few handful of people are ignorant cannot see shabad guru is higher? This is my freind, is a extremely flaw approach can lead to talibanstic approach of sikhi, if promoted who knows? we will have your own set of taliban destroying anything and everything which looks idol to them.

Now coming back to the pictures, i see no difference between pictures and the items i have mentioned above. As i already said, pictures draws out inspirational sakhiya's, and virtues of our guru sahiban shown in act of picture (art expression) of an true artist.

You guys are against pictures period and wants to ban them or burn them. if you were against certain potrayal of picture or specific picture your post will make sense but since you are against ideology of pictures(artistic way of parchar fetched from janamsakhiyas, and virtues of guru) full stop, i found your approach to be flawed.

[N30S1NGH]

it's not the pictures of guru's in artistic way that panth is vulnerable, panth is vulnerable to this fanatical approach o artistic pictures of guru's which shows virtues, history. If you can't see those virtues or history in the artistic drawing, sketches, pictures....don't blame the pictures, blame your blindness(agyanta). may be some day by blessing of guru when people debdristi opens (vision gets free from tunell) then you will know each artistic pictures have history, virtues behind it(directly fetched from janamsakhis) which artist shares. Art is a kalan itself, art can tell priceless words which this tongue cannot.

You think sri guru gobind singh used this waha bi approach of "lets burn pictures" because people may idol worship those pictures- NO

He instead gave gyan to sangat and told them, purpose behind the art. 68 Poets, artist from different backgrounds in Guru Maharaj darbar is an classic example of Guru Maharaj appreciation towards Arts, calligarphy, poetries.

[N30S1NGH]

Idolizing definitions:

An image used as an object of worship.

One that is adored, often blindly or excessively.

Something visible but without substance

answer to the orginal question:

I find none of these idiolizing as long an person who is doing above acts knows that this is just stepping stone just beginning, as long that person who is doing above acts know their higher aim merge with nirgun parbhram. However i find an person who is stuck an idol equally i also find an who has lack of vichar on these things an idol worshipper.

In gurmat advait marg:

Gur ki Murat Man Mein Dhyan, Gur Ke Shabad Antar Man Maan" ||

Hence first stage of meditation starts with sargun pooja with shabad dhyaan leading to final stage- nirgun pooja (surat merging in shabad).

Mahapursh usually tell begineers students like us do sargun pooja(vairat upasana, reading shabad, dyaan of physical saroop of guru sahib) along dhyaan of shabad in meditation so that it helps our surati to become subtle so that our surat can reach the stage: Shabad Guru Surat Dhun Chela ||

Only bhramgyani can doo pooja of nirgun by three flowers: boodh(gyan), saam (sam dristhi), sam(chit di iigarata)

[mann_kaum_layee_qurbaan]

wow its been a while Namstang.

nice to hear from you again.

i'm not for burning anything singh. or for banning. i've given my reasons. you've given yours. peace. its not something either of us should lose sleep over. if we both agree that shabad guru is guru and that pictures are imaginary depictions of the physical bodies of the gurus then hey, i'm here with open arms to hug a fellow sikh.

i'm not trying to be talibanish veer. putting taliban and sikhi in the same sentence is quite degrading actually.

just as you wish to have free thought on the value of pictures, i hope your struggle against "black and white" sikhi holds a place for sikhs against pics as well. you can't have it both ways either.

your gonna have to tolerate the other views as well which are against pics. i don't think banning and burning pics was ever brought up.

also, namstang, since you are good at researching these things, can you please tell us why the Sikh rehit Maryada has such a view on Aarti with thaal and divas etc? because to my knowledge, the rehit maryada is the work of not a couple but many many learned gursikhs from around the world.

thanks.

peace.